Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[PostBradMalone]

Holland successfully killed this team in a span of a month when he spent 19million on Kulak, Campbell, Yama,Pulju, Murray and Kane in Jul/Aug 2022..

I guess in a way, those posters who spent the summer crowing that Holland would finally get a chance to put his stamp on the team with all of Chia’s old contracts gone weren’t wrong.

 

[McDNicks17]

Holland successfully killed this team in a span of a month when he spent 19million on Kulak, Campbell, Yama,Pulju, Murray and Kane in Jul/Aug 2022..

I'm sure there's still people out there blaming Chia though despite there being like three contracts(two of them being McDrai) still on the roster from that era.

 

[brentashton]

I'm sure there's still people out there blaming Chia though despite there being like three contracts(two of them being McDrai) still on the roster from that era.

This isn’t wrong, however it seems like every time there is a new GM installed they spend 18 months, draft capital and embedded dead cap trying to correct the fu k ups from the previous regime. Lowe, Tambellini, McTavish, Chia and Holland all own parts of this. They are all to blame. It’s gotten beyond frustrating.

 

[McDNicks17]

This isn’t wrong, however it seems like every time there is a new GM installed they spend 18 months, draft capital and embedded dead cap trying to correct the fu k ups from the previous regime. Lowe, Tambellini, McTavish, Chia and Holland all own parts of this. They are all to blame. It’s gotten beyond frustrating.

The next GM is going to have to do the same thing too.

They really need a modern thinking guy that can actually make some trades to stop this cycle of suck. Holland tried to fix it by throwing money at UFAs and he's just ended up making it harder for the next guy than Chia made it for him.

 

[brentashton]

The next GM is going to have to do the same thing too.

They really need a modern thinking guy that can actually make some trades to stop this cycle of suck. Holland tried to fix it by throwing money at UFAs and he's just ended up making it harder for the next guy than Chia made it for him.

Bang on.

Ken also has never been a “trading” GM. He’s been a long term builder and developer, with minor FA signings . With the org in the state it was at the time of his hire, it had some appeal for term organizational success, but the med/short term needs was what was the primary need. And they didn’t hire for that for sure. And at that, the redevelopment of the hockey management org hasn’t been overly positive neither. Amateur and pro scouting still sucks and analytics still looks like it’s being done on an abacus by people, who flunked out at the Sesame Street level of education. This probably won’t end well on a number of fronts.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Patience.

*Legendary

 

[McDNicks17]

Bang on.

Ken also has never been a “trading” GM. He’s been a long term builder and developer, with minor FA signings . With the org in the state it was at the time of his hire, it had some appeal for term organizational success, but the med/short term needs was what was the primary need. And they didn’t hire for that for sure. And at that, the redevelopment of the hockey management org hasn’t been overly positive neither. Amateur and pro scouting still sucks and analytics still looks like it’s being done on an abacus by people, who flunked out at the Sesame Street level of education. This probably won’t end well on a number of fronts.

The hiring never really made any sense. He pretty much spent the last decade failing to do what was needed here in Detroit.

He would have made sense to hire back in like 2010, but he's absolutely lost when it comes to filling holes and making smart moves in a short period of time.

 

[brentashton]

Any fans of Red Forman here…?

The hiring never really made any sense. He pretty much spent the last decade failing to do what was needed here in Detroit.

He would have made sense to hire back in like 2010, but he's absolutely lost when it comes to filling holes and making smart moves in a short period of time.

LIKE

 

[King1s]

Maybe they are tanking for the lottery?

 

[Spawn]

Maybe they are tanking for the lottery?

Need to be bottom 11 to have a chance at 1sr overall. Oilers sitting 13th worst in terms of point percentage.

Not far off from it becoming a reality.

 

[McCombo]

Holland has had multiple years to make his mark and his work is bad. Some nice signings like Hyman here and there. But the defense he has "build" is a trainwreck.

Right side
On July 28 2021 Holland made a decision that right side formed by Cody Ceci, Tyson Barrie and Evan Bouchard should be good enough to contend for SC for the next 3 years, barring a trade. On that day he signed both Ceci and Barrie. Neither of those contracts are essentially bad, but that group contains a PP specialist that needs 5on5 sheltering, a veteran guy that has never been close playing succesfully top pairing minutes and pretty much a rookie. Three guys that all should be playing max 2nd pairing minutes.

Left side
August 6 2021 he made a massive mistake and signed Darnell Nurse to a 8 x 9.25mil deal. Holland could have waited if Nurse's contract year with way too high sh% was anomaly, but decided not to. Now Darnell Nurse rocks a higher AAV than Cale Makar. I liked Kulak extension, but team should have more competition on top4 role. Ideally Kulak should be playing 3rd pairing minutes and pinch to top4 when needed. Broberg has been fine lately, but his play has been underwhelming if you look a longer sample size. Niemeläinen and Murray are just guys who can somewhat fill in a 3rd pairing role.

Overall there are too many guys too high on the depth chart. Not a single game-breaking talent on the back-end. And how many guys are actually good players in every zone? None is probably the correct answer... Oilers have missed true top pairing for as long as I can remember. Can Nurse be part of good 1st pairing? Potentially if there is really good and steady partner for him. If Nurse is considered the best player in the pairing it most likely won't. If you compare it to what contenders are icing.

Campbell signing is really the icing on the cake. One year of experience playing as a starter. And it wasn't steady season to begin with. And this isn't being smart-ass now that he has been awful, I pointed out these facts when this signing was made, when some of the posters were claiming that we got the best FA goalie.

Team with Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl having pretty much historically good powerplay, that has gotten above average goaltending from Stuart Skinner is in serious danger of missing playoffs. That is the sort of team Ken Holland has gotten together. So why would you trust that he can fix this and actually build a contender?

Edit. And on top of that we have professional writers/media guys that think that trading for Joel Edmundson is the way to go. So another very one dimensional depth defensemen whose skill-set is as far as it can be from what modern defensemen should be capable doing.

 

[Soundwave]

Holland has had multiple years to make his mark and his work is bad. Some nice signings like Hyman here and there. But the defense he has "build" is a trainwreck.

Right side
On July 28 2021 Holland made a decision that right side formed by Cody Ceci, Tyson Barrie and Evan Bouchard should be good enough to contend for SC for the next 3 years, barring a trade. On that day he signed both Ceci and Barrie. Neither of those contracts are essentially bad, but that group contains a PP specialist that needs 5on5 sheltering, a veteran guy that has never been close playing succesfully top pairing minutes and pretty much a rookie. Three guys that all should be playing max 2nd pairing minutes.

Left side
August 6 2021 he made a massive mistake and signed Darnell Nurse to a 8 x 9.25mil deal. Holland could have waited if Nurse's contract year with way too high sh% was anomaly, but decided not to. Now Darnell Nurse rocks a higher AAV than Cale Makar. I liked Kulak extension, but team should have more competition on top4 role. Ideally Kulak should be playing 3rd pairing minutes and pinch to top4 when needed. Broberg has been fine lately, but his play has been underwhelming if you look a longer sample size. Niemeläinen and Murray are just guys who can somewhat fill in a 3rd pairing role.

Overall there are too many guys too high on the depth chart. Not a single game-breaking talent on the back-end. And how many guys are actually good players in every zone? None is probably the correct answer... Oilers have missed true top pairing for as long as I can remember. Can Nurse be part of good 1st pairing? Potentially if there is really good and steady partner for him. If Nurse is considered the best player in the pairing it most likely won't. If you compare it to what contenders are icing.

Campbell signing is really the icing on the cake. One year of experience playing as a starter. And it wasn't steady season to begin with. And this isn't being smart-ass now that he has been awful, I pointed out these facts when this signing was made, when some of the posters were claiming that we got the best FA goalie.

Team with Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl having pretty much historically good powerplay, that has gotten above average goaltending from Stuart Skinner is in serious danger of missing playoffs. That is the sort of team Ken Holland has gotten together. So why would you trust that he can fix this and actually build a contender?

I mean you're 100% spot on, on the positive side by getting himself fired Holland also sewered the career of his son before it ever got started because no other org is dumb enough to hire someone with no major hockey experience to be the GM (clearly Holland was grooming him to take over the Oilers).

#oilerpositives

 

[McCombo]

I mean you're 100% spot on, on the positive side by getting himself fired Holland also sewered the career of his son before it ever got started because no other org is dumb enough to hire someone with no major hockey experience to be the GM (clearly Holland was grooming him to take over the Oilers).

#oilerpositives

I would actually hope that the new GM is as far away from "good old hockey people" group. You need some sort of an edge to build better team than most your competants. Well Oilers got a massive edge when they lucked their way into McDavid. That has offset part of the issue what comes to Edmonton as location. But all that has been given away when people running this team haven't been up to date. So they are giving a massive edge to other teams, by using Kenny's gut feeling and whatever. This team should have founded a analytics group years ago. And I don't just mean one man show via Tyler Dellow or whoever it was. Have 5+ people and actually have open-minded people running your hockey operations.

Ken Holland had an massive edge when he built Red Wings dynasty. European/Russian scouting. They had so many swedish and russian stars. It was never his gut feeling, he had an edge. He doesn't have it anymore.

 

[frag2]

Is he fired yet?

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

That evaluating Broberg shit really pisses me off. What an excuse to continue to do nothing.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

That evaluating Broberg shit really pisses me off. What an excuse to continue to do nothing.

Broberg has at least shown that he's worth evaluating and has actually played fantastic the past few games. I'm good with him playing at this level for the next 2 years at <1 mil. The bigger issue is why the f*** are we dicking off with wastes of space like Puljujarvi/Yamamoto/Foegele/Kulak (especially Kulak jesus christ I'm sorry for ever defending this player) who have shown nothing all season long besides the ability to get caved in and kill plays. at 3 mil. Not to mention the absolute meme that is Jack Campbell.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Broberg has at least shown that he's worth evaluating and has actually played fantastic the past few games. I'm good with him playing at this level for the next 2 years at <1 mil. The bigger issue is why the f*** are we dicking off with wastes of space like Puljujarvi/Yamamoto/Foegele/Kulak (especially Kulak jesus christ I'm sorry for ever defending this player) who have shown nothing all season long besides the ability to get caved in and kill plays. at 3 mil. Not to mention the absolute meme that is Jack Campbell.

Okay that’s fine. Im not saying trade Broberg. Hollands excuse to do nothing is “evaluating Broberg” which is where my issue is.

 

[Soundwave]

I would actually hope that the new GM is as far away from "good old hockey people" group. You need some sort of an edge to build better team than most your competants. Well Oilers got a massive edge when they lucked their way into McDavid. That has offset part of the issue what comes to Edmonton as location. But all that has been given away when people running this team haven't been up to date. So they are giving a massive edge to other teams, by using Kenny's gut feeling and whatever. This team should have founded a analytics group years ago. And I don't just mean one man show via Tyler Dellow or whoever it was. Have 5+ people and actually have open-minded people running your hockey operations.

Ken Holland had a massive edge when he built Red Wings dynasty. European/Russian scouting. They had so many swedish and russian stars. It was never his gut feeling, he had an edge. He doesn't Broberg has at least shown that he's worth evaluating and has actually played fantastic the past few games. I'm good with him playing at this level for the next 2 years at <1 mil. The bigger issue is why the f*** are we dicking off with wastes of space like Puljujarvi/Yamamoto/Foegele/Kulak (especially Kulak jesus christ I'm sorry for ever defending this player) who have shown nothing all season long besides the ability to get caved in and kill plays. at 3 mil. Not to mention the absolute meme that is Jack Campbell.

The problem is we can’t just be happy with “well this player treads water for 1 million bucks, pretty good huh?”.

That Broberg pick needs to be like a D that makes a difference in wins versus losses and soon and yes that’s asking for a lot but we don’t have the luxury of spending too 10 picks and not getting functional difference makers from it in a small turn around.

They should have taken Zegras or Caufield who would have great trade value now and be helping us win more games in the meantime or traded the pick straight up at the time for a legit top 3 D.

 

[McAsuno]

Get rid of this piece of shit and his buddy Nicholson already

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Okay that’s fine. Im not saying trade Broberg. Hollands excuse to do nothing is “evaluating Broberg” which is where my issue is.

I agreed 100%. Moves needed to be made ages ago, specifically during the offseason where we decided that the solution to Darnell Nurse breaking the NHL quality of competition record was to... go into the season with even less depth on defense?

The problem is we can’t just be happy with “well this player treads water for 1 million bucks, pretty good huh?”.

That Broberg pick needs to be like a D that makes a difference in wins versus losses and soon and yes that’s asking for a lot but we don’t have the luxury of spending too 10 picks and not getting functional difference makers from it in a small turn around.

They should have taken Zegras or Caufield who would have great trade value now and be helping us win more games in the meantime or traded the pick straight up at the time for a legit top 3 D.

Yeah the pick was a mistake and I'm not gonna defend it. But you don't compound that mistake by making an even bigger mistake tossing Broberg into a trade for Joel Edmundson or whatever pile of dog shit Holland Sr/Holland Jr and co are targeting. I personally would rather just let Broberg play it out and up his value, maybe even develop into a top 4 dman a year or two down the line. He's been far from the problem with this team and has objectively been playing great since coming back from his injury.

 

[SwedishFire]

Bang on.

Ken also has never been a “trading” GM. He’s been a long term builder and developer, with minor FA signings . With the org in the state it was at the time of his hire, it had some appeal for term organizational success, but the med/short term needs was what was the primary need. And they didn’t hire for that for sure. And at that, the redevelopment of the hockey management org hasn’t been overly positive neither. Amateur and pro scouting still sucks and analytics still looks like it’s being done on an abacus by people, who flunked out at the Sesame Street level of education. This probably won’t end well on a number of fronts.sj6

We live in a league where all GMs are shortsighted, and Ii think Holland hasvright with this one. Otherwise all players are like things, teamculture gets to unpersonal. Long term plan and patience creates harmony in ghe players, a feeling of growing together, more saftey. And that gives all benwfits, evwn short terms. Even if I wished uncle Kenny could make a trade done for a good D, 2 way D or defensive specialist. But its very hard. I get that.

Foewards is easier nowadays. Could see a forward is aquired at TD as a sort of cosnolation price.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Holland successfully killed this team in a span of a month when he spent 19million on Kulak, Campbell, Yama,Pulju, Murray and Kane in Jul/Aug 2022..

Campbell has started poorly bit at least he has been gaining some traction lately so hopefully he can be at least a 1B for us for awhile.

Hedging on Kulak being a 2nd pairing D and PKer has not aged well at all.

Yamamoto needs to produce more but at least he brings hustle when he's healthy.

Pulju has been awful and is paid 3x what his play has warranted.

Murray was a cheap but risky signing.

Kane's deal is a steal, so was RNH's, Hyman's and now Skinners.

Foegele, Puljujarvi, Yamamoto (I'd give him a little more runway unless we can move him for a better player in a package deal) and Kulak are all guys that we need upgrades on.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Broberg has at least shown that he's worth evaluating and has actually played fantastic the past few games. I'm good with him playing at this level for the next 2 years at <1 mil. The bigger issue is why the f*** are we dicking off with wastes of space like Puljujarvi/Yamamoto/Foegele/Kulak (especially Kulak jesus christ I'm sorry for ever defending this player) who have shown nothing all season long besides the ability to get caved in and kill plays. at 3 mil. Not to mention the absolute meme that is Jack Campbell.

The correct play would've been to upgrade on Kulak and figure that Bro and Niemo could fight it out with Murray for the 3rd pairing LD. Unless Broberg has a steep learning curve and Kulak can move to 3LD full time, Kulak's signing is the new but cheaper K. Russell deal.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Legendary Patience
Answer is in the room
NHL Guide and Record Book
Toilet seat up, toilet seat down.

Did I miss any?

"Did you want me to get him for free?"

That might be my favorite

 

[Fourier]

Bang on.

Ken also has never been a “trading” GM. He’s been a long term builder and developer, with minor FA signings . With the org in the state it was at the time of his hire, it had some appeal for term organizational success, but the med/short term needs was what was the primary need. And they didn’t hire for that for sure. And at that, the redevelopment of the hockey management org hasn’t been overly positive neither. Amateur and pro scouting still sucks and analytics still looks like it’s being done on an abacus by people, who flunked out at the Sesame Street level of education. This probably won’t end well on a number of fronts.

One of the problems in this regard is that he learned to do this from a position of significant advantage. It was a lot easier to tinker and to get the right UFA's to come when you had Yzerman, Federov, Shannahan, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Larianov, Zetterberg, Murphy etc. and an open cheque book with one of the league's richest owners at a time when there was no cap.

He has an owner that is willing to spend to the cap but aside from McDrai few other advantages that compensate for his lack of imagination. With the salary cap in place you have to always be looking for that new edge. He is also very loyal to older players. Not claiming Tolvanen for example while Shore was on your roster is the type of thing that Detroit faNS were hyper-critical of when the Red Wings were aging. Loyalty is an admirable trait, but in excess it can also be counter productive in a business like this.

The correct play would've been to upgrade on Kulak and figure that Bro and Niemo could fight it out with Murray for the 3rd pairing LD. Unless Broberg has a steep learning curve and Kulak can move to 3LD full time, Kulak's signing is the new but cheaper K. Russell deal.

Here is a question that I am not sure of the answer but I suspect it is no. If they were to upgrade the #2LD slot would he even consider trading Kulak in order to free up space and that slot?? For example, in a hypothetical deal for Chychrun (or even Gavrikov) would it make sense to include Kulak. The Yotes need actual players and his deal is modestly front loaded which they like. In real money terms the Yotes would have Kulak for three years at $2.6M per year on average. He's actually very good value at that money and cap hit so if they wanted they could turn around and move him for a decent asset. That would allow you to play Broberg with his $860K salary on your bottom pair.