OT: Failure of a team, Failure of a rebuild

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Look at Debrincat right now, he is a completely different player. It happens all the time, they have never had another voice the teams shouldnt be breaking up the core until the new management can see them under a new coach. I also think that from a culture perspective having a new GM and boss will create a trickle down. Dorion has no leadership abilities and it starts from the top.

Maybe. I have more faith that Batherson can carve out a role than Chabot.

The guy can't PK, is no longer on the top PP, isn't great 5v5, and is now being asked to play on his off side because we have better top 4 LD options.

This summer, Chabot will be the same age that Karlsson was when we traded him. He is what he is, IMO.

 

[bert]

Maybe. I have more faith that Batherson can carve out a role than Chabot.

The guy can't PK, is no longer on the top PP, isn't great 5v5, and is now being asked to play on his off side because we have better top 4 LD options.

Chabot has talent to do all the above. A new coach could light a fire/hold him accountable. Giving up on the player before thats proven it cant happen would be incredibly short sighted. Thats the point of the change.

Chabot dispite being trash defensively has had some nice offensive moments from a creativity stand point this year. If they get those moments with better defensive play he can be a great player. Id like to see if he can rebound before giving up on the player.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Guys who skate like Chabot are a valuable commodity in the NHL. You just don't give them up if you don't have to.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Chabot has talent to do all the above. A new coach could light a fire/hold him accountable. Giving up on the player before thats proven it cant happen would be incredibly short sighted. Thats the point of the change.

Chabot dispite being trash defensively has had some nice offensive moments from a creativity stand point this year. If they get those moments with better defensive play he can be a great player. Id like to see if he can rebound before giving up on the player.

Well next summer, the new GM will essentially have to decide between paying Chyhcrun or keeping Chabot. I don't think either guy playing on their off-side is a long-term solution, and Sanderson is well ahead of both as our #1.

You can look at it as giving up on the player. Or you can look at it as trading an asset to build a better-rounded team.

If you could trade Chabot for a more defensive, physical RD from a team that needs more offense from the back-end, that's something you have to consider.

 

[Xspyrit]

The core is good, the rest is not. Need to fill out the roster with physical / defensive minded players.

Tkachuk - Stutzle - Giroux
??? - Norris - Batherson
??? - ??? - Tarasenko
Greig - Pinto - Joseph
Kelly

Sanderson - Zub
Chychrun - ???
Chabot - ???
Hamonic

This is clearly not a talent problem.

Only 17 NHL players have more ES pts than Greig and Joseph so far, who are also +7 and +5, no way they should be on a 4th line, same for Pinto. Same for Chabot, he's not a 3rd pairing D-man although having the big 3 on different pairings is something I have proposed before. Have one of them at all times on the ice and split them equally at ES. Special teams and various game situations would make them end with the most ice time

Kubalik should have been traded as soon as they signed Tarasenko, then Pinto should have been signed. Dorion sabotages things all by himself, the goaltending duo should be Gustavsson-Forsberg. Now the Pinto situation.

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Pinto - Stutzle - Giroux
Joseph - Greig - Tarasenko
Kelly - Kastelic - MacEwen

Chabot - Sanderson
Chychrun - Zub
Brannstrom - Hamonic

I think this team with proper coaching/systems could do well. Need to clean the whole house, sorry Andlauer but you'll have to

 

[UglyPuckling]

I'll take emo rage for 500, Alex

Many of the Senator's best players (e.g., Stutzle, Giroux, Batherson) haven't been the best. It's a competitive league and division. Unless these players are playing at the top of their game, it's hard to win.

This is clearly not a talent problem.

They have talent, but so far this season, some of the top players have been underwhelming. JMHO.

 

[Xspyrit]

Chabot has talent to do all the above. A new coach could light a fire/hold him accountable. Giving up on the player before thats proven it cant happen would be incredibly short sighted. Thats the point of the change.

Chabot dispite being trash defensively has had some nice offensive moments from a creativity stand point this year. If they get those moments with better defensive play he can be a great player. Id like to see if he can rebound before giving up on the player.

It would be stupid to "dump" Chabot just to see him flourish somewhere else. How many instances do people need to understand? Even Mike Amadio carved himself a role on the Stanley Cup champions.

Mika Zibanejad? Filip Gustavsson? Mark Stone? Matt Duchene? Anthony Duclair? Mike Hoffman? Alex DeBrincat? Nick Paul? Dylan DeMelo? The list goes on and on for ex Sens players who have done quite well after leaving Ottawa during this rebuild

Chabot needs to be coached the right way and be put in a situation where he will be able to use his strengths, which is not playing with Nikita Zaitsev or on his off-side... We are also supposed to monitor his minutes smartly but he still play 25 minutes a game for some reason

They have talent, but so far this season, some of the top players have been underwhelming. JMHO.

A LOT of talent actually, but just a completely disorganized mess which ends up in a big WASTE of talent. We just don't play the right way. I wouldn't mind losing (and it's pretty normal) if we were still playing the right way.

Why is the line of Joseph - Greig - Tarasenko is so good you guys think?

Greig : starting in the NHL
Tarasenko : new with the team
Joseph : a reborn player, he worked like a madman to bounce back this season. Had only played 67 games on this team.

Most of the rest of the team are actually playing vs themselves.

 

[UglyPuckling]

It would be stupid to "dump" Chabot just to see him flourish somewhere else. How many instances do people need to understand? Even Mike Amadio carved himself a role on the Stanley Cup champions.

Mika Zibanejad? Filip Gustavsson? Mark Stone? Matt Duchene? Anthony Duclair? Mike Hoffman? Alex DeBrincat? Nick Paul? Dylan DeMelo? The list goes on and on for ex Sens players who have done quite well after leaving Ottawa during this rebuild

Chabot needs to be coached the right way and be put in a situation where he will be able to use his strengths, which is not playing with Nikita Zaitsev or on his off-side... We are also supposed to monitor his minutes smartly but he still play 25 minutes a game for some reason





A LOT of talent actually, but just a completely disorganized mess which ends up in a big WASTE of talent. We just don't play the right way. I wouldn't mind losing (and it's pretty normal) if we were still playing the right way.

Why is the line of Joseph - Greig - Tarasenko is so good you guys think?

Greig : starting in the NHL
Tarasenko : new with the team
Joseph : a reborn player, he worked like a madman to bounce back this season. Had only played 67 games on this team.

Most of the rest of the team are actually playing vs themselves.

Maybe coaching is a factor. I don't know. Based on what I've seen, I just don't think our best players are playing at level they are capable of, at least lately.

Stutzle hasn't played at the high level he's capable of. He has just 2 goals. Batherson has 3 points, all assists. And, those are just point production stats. We've seen some bonehead plays and blunders at critical times from some of our best players.

It's hard to win in this league when your best players aren't your best players.

And, I think we don't really know how our best & the team in general stack up against the best on the others and their teams in general. We've either been rebuilding or had injuries or other things that make it hard to read and get a good evaluation. We tend to be a little too internally focused & myopic perhaps. Other teams that we compete against have good players too. They work at getting better as well. It's a super competitive league and landscape. We are still learning & finding out about our own team given previous circumstances. JMHO.

 

[bert]

Maybe coaching is a factor. I don't know. Based on what I've seen, I just don't think our best players are playing at level they are capable of, at least lately.

But, Stutzle hasn't played at the high level he's capable of. He has just 2 goals. Batherson has 3 points, all assists. And, those are just point production stats. We've seen some bonehead plays and blunders at critical times from some of our best players.

It's hard to win in this league when your best players aren't your best players.

And, I think we don't really know how our best & the team in general stack up against the best on the others and their teams in general. We've either been rebuilding or had injuries or other things that make it hard to read and get a good evaluation. We tend to be a little too internally focused & myopic perhaps. Other teams that we compete against have good players too. They work at getting better as well. JMHO.

Agreed, where this team would be without Sanderson, Joseph, Grieg and Tarasenko is a scary thought. They have been carrying this team at both ends of the ice.

 

[sennysensen]

We possibly do need a new coach and GM. However, 6 games into the season, we're 3-3. The last 2 games we didn't play that badly, but had breakdowns and were out-goaltended. True, we play sloppy, and don't have the greatest system, but anyone sane would wait a bit.

Obviously, Kubalik is useless, Pierre should have traded him Oct 5 or so to make room for Pinto, but the insecure one of course holds onto him like gold hoping the Debrincat situation doesn't look as bad as it does.

When we were 3-1, we were the best team, on the way to Stanley Cup contention. Now we're 3-3, and are the worst team in the league. At least we're not 1-5 like the Oilers.

Have some patience.

If we are 8-12 in a few weeks, fire the coach and GM. But we'd look crazy to do that now.

 

[SPF6ty9]

The team has a lot of talent. You look at the lineup goaltending aside and this should be a playoff team.

DJ running the show is probably a net negative that the collective talent of the team has to try to overcome. A coach that could come in and be a positive to the group rather than someone they need to win in spite of would be huge for this group.

Andlauer and Staios need time to really evaluate everything, but we pretty much know Dorion and DJ are dead men walking. The sample size is large enough that it's not a reactionary 6 games into the season thing. Even if the team ends up making the playoffs, the worst thing that could happen would be using it as an excuse to keep DJ.

 

[Sensinitis]

Failure of a thread

 

[Answer]

You're the last person on this board who should be calling anyone out on their negativity.

There is a difference. My comments and negativity is towards the teams performance

His was towards an individual poster

Kinda same like you Brady fanboys

 

[Alf Silfversson]

We possibly do need a new coach and GM. However, 6 games into the season, we're 3-3. The last 2 games we didn't play that badly, but had breakdowns and were out-goaltended. True, we play sloppy, and don't have the greatest system, but anyone sane would wait a bit.

Obviously, Kubalik is useless, Pierre should have traded him Oct 5 or so to make room for Pinto, but the insecure one of course holds onto him like gold hoping the Debrincat situation doesn't look as bad as it does.

When we were 3-1, we were the best team, on the way to Stanley Cup contention. Now we're 3-3, and are the worst team in the league. At least we're not 1-5 like the Oilers.

Have some patience.

If we are 8-12 in a few weeks, fire the coach and GM. But we'd look crazy to do that now.

If we wait until we're 8-12 we'll look crazy AND stupid for not making changes until the season was a lost cause.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Let Dorion making a single additional decision?

View attachment 757675

My narrative since January 2021, since these 3 consecutives losses against Vancouver when they destroyed us 16-3. Our offseason was absolutely horrible but our start to that season confirmed that Dorion has no idea what he was doing.

Even though his tenure pretty much started with Zibanejad + 2nd for Brassard, it was hard to know how clueless he was outside of "We're a team" moments because all he had to do was to SELL our best players for the best offers (probably missed on some of these actually) and draft HIGH and as often as possible*. When it actually came to managing assets and proper roster construction (which includes coaching), the experience has been nothing short of a nightmare.

I am sorry but you know very little about the NHL if you think that Dorion has been helping and not sabotaging our organizational wealth Complain about me all you want.

* Speaking of that, this is what we have to show for 6 drafts of being out of the playoffs (bottom-3 the first 3 years, bottom-10 the next 2 years) AND selling Karlsson, Duchene, Stone, Pageau in their prime (+ Brassard, Dzingel, Hoffman, Ceci) :

4th OA Brady Tkachuk
26th OA Jacob Bernard-Docker
19th OA Lassi Thomson
3rd OA Tim Stutzle
5th OA Jake Sanderson
28th OA Ridly Greig
10th OA Tyler Boucher

Only 4 players come from the 1st round despite sucking 6 years AND selling the whole previous roster that went to the ECF

No trust me, Pierre has to go as well but I do feel like a more experienced coach could get more out of this roster

 

[jbeck5]

No team in the league has players as good as Pinto and Greig on the 4th line. This team needs defensive D men that make players pay the price and a team that plays with more urgency. They arent that far away. They need a new coach first to see if players like Batherson and Chabot can be coached to the point where their massive levels of talent are effective.

But defensive D can't move the puck. They put it off the boards and out.

We had teams full of defense first defenseman for a decade and it was a nightmare.

This is the point totals of our #2 and #3 defensemen over the last 10 years:

13-14: 23 and 23
14-15: 21 and 13
15-16: 26 and 13
16-17: 30 and 17
17-18: 25 and 19
18-19: 26 and 22
19-20: 18 and 12
20-21: 19 and 17
21-22: 22 and 19
22-23: 32 and 21.

That's brutal offense from the backend. Having zero depth for offense is not a recipe for success.

The 5 best year window the sens had?

02-03: 39 and 29
03-04: 41 and 23
05-06: 43 and 39 (and 35)
06-07: 37 and 36 (and 35)
07-08: 36 and 27 and then we start decline again with no offensive depth from the backend

I don't think the answer is to trade for defensive D as much as it is to teach these offensive guys to have a bit more of a defense first mentality.

I think it's easier to get Sanderson or chychrun to play proper defense than it is to get guys like gudbranson or harmonic to put up 30-40 points.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Well next summer, the new GM will essentially have to decide between paying Chyhcrun or keeping Chabot. I don't think either guy playing on their off-side is a long-term solution, and Sanderson is well ahead of both as our #1.

You can look at it as giving up on the player. Or you can look at it as trading an asset to build a better-rounded team.

If you could trade Chabot for a more defensive, physical RD from a team that needs more offense from the back-end, that's something you have to consider.

not even sure you could give away chabot for free right now.

 

[Adrianopolous]

There is a difference. My comments and negativity is towards the teams performance

His was towards an individual poster

Kinda same like you Brady fanboys

Disappointed that Nyquil’s insult has not been deleted yet

 

[BoardsofCanada]

On any given night, weaker teams can beat stronger teams. Last night was an upset. It happens.

Buffalo was clearly angry and desperate for a win; especially after losing to the weakling Habs the night before. On top of that, they got lucky; it seemed like the puck was just bouncing perfectly for them.

Didn't we outshoot them 38-23? We were clearly the better team... just not getting the bounces. It'll come. Everyone relax.

 

[jbeck5]

Disappointed that Nyquil’s insult has not been deleted yet

I agree.

No dog in the race (or whatever the expression is)

But being negative towards the team or members of the team is not the same as being negative towards a poster.


I swear, people love to try to get a one up on someone and make it personal. I wish we would crack down on that trolling.

If a poster says something you don't like, address the post, but don't mock the poster.

I got it from like a handful of people simply for stating I'm not a fan of 1 day contracts and would prefer full year contracts. Apparently that gets posters panties in a twist and makes them personally go after an individual.

So I'm asking, why do so many of us take things so personal that we then try to get a one up on someone we disagree with? Just address the actual issue with a well thought out response or don't bother. Enough of these Snyde remarks that will obviously piss off the other poster and result in a back and forth that derails the thread.

 

[swiftwin]

Guys who skate like Chabot are a valuable commodity in the NHL. You just don't give them up if you don't have to.

I'm getting Jason Spezza vibes with how the fanbase is treating Chabot right now.

You don't know what you have until it's gone.

We are extremely lucky to have Chabot, and I'm pretty disappointed he's being made into the new scapegoat.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I'm getting Jason Spezza vibes with how the fanbase is treating Chabot right now.

You don't know what you have until it's gone.

We are extremely lucky to have Chabot, and I'm pretty disappointed he's being made into the new scapegoat.

Spezza gave us elite seasons and even finished top 5 in Hart voting with Colin Greening on his wing. It is not even close.

But honestly i'm not even blaming Chabot individually, they put him bad positions with weak leadership.

All of Chabot, Brady, Batherson have been lacking and play like they never got proper mentorship and in turn are not the best examples for others. Suprise Suprise they are the ones who have been longest on the team.

Chabot just plays the hardest position and is the most replaceable.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

 

[jbeck5]

Spezza gave us elite seasons and even finished top 5 in Hart voting with Colin Greening on his wing. It is not even close.

But honestly i'm not even blaming Chabot individually, they put him bad positions with weak leadership.

All of Chabot, Brady, Batherson have been lacking and play like they never got proper mentorship and in turn are not the best examples for others. Suprise Suprise they are the ones who have been longest on the team.

Chabot just plays the hardest position and is the most replaceable.

Isn't that why we brought in Giroux? I thought the idea was that what Giroux was providing for guys like Tkachuk and stutzle is invaluable.

Now ditto for Tarasenko who seems to play hard and knows how to win.

 

[OD99]

Is this vibes based?

PK sure, hasn’t been good. PP is at 22%, 3.84 GF/60 at 5v5. 3 games with 3 or more 5v5 GF. 2 with 2 GF and 1 with 1GF. 5v5 scoring is going.

Not vibes and not just this season sample size. If we aren't going to be upper tier in PK and PP we will need to sustain much higher 5V5 scoring than we have in the past.

Again - this is about big gains this year. 2 or 3 point improvement with this team, is not acceptable.