OT: Failure of a team, Failure of a rebuild

[jbeck5]

I remember 6-2 not 9-1

Lmao I thought we only lost 1, to Montreal, and we said it didn't affect our undefeated record against them, and also thought we played 2 games more than most because of kraft hockey ville in Halifax or something

I could be wrong.

I just remember our team being high flying at the start of the year. Having no problem putting pressure on and scoring goals.

 

[Micklebot]

But they've also played worse offensively, by about the same degree.

Is that really the case?

5v5 xGF are up under Martin, scoring chances, HD chances all up. Sh% is down though. So are they playing worse or are they just not getting the finish that they did in a relatively small sample under DJ?

The thing is, when it comes to goal for and against, it takes a good chunk of the season for rates to stabilize, the sample needs to get large enough before you really have a good feel for what to expect. We simply didn't have that sample size by the time DJ got fired.

 

[Wondercarrot]

For sure. It's easy for a fresh GM with little to no connections (or favours owed back to him), to get all the right moves in his first off-season in his career.

Then I guess it’s a good thing they have Poulin, who does know everybody and has done this all before.
It’s almost like they hired him on purpose.

 

[jfc64]

Disagree, the forward group is solid and good enough without major changes needed

Staois really needs to fix the D and G and these 4 spots in the Lineup and it will turn the team around.

Sanderson - XXXX
Chabot - Zub
XXXX - XXXX

XXXXX
Sogaard

If you guys strengthen defense forwards will benefit:

Brady Tkachuk - Josh Norris - Drake Batherson 8.2 - 8 - 5
Tim Stützle - Shane Pinto - Claude Giroux 8.4 - - 6.5
Boris Katchouk - Ridly Greig - 0.9 -
Parker Kelly - Mark Kastelic - Zack MacEwen - 0.8 -
37.8 (7)

Thomas Chabot - Artyom Zub 8 - 4.6
Jake Sanderson - Jacob Bernard-Docker 8 - 0.8
Jakob Chychrun - Erik Karlsson 4.6 - 8 (2 million retained by Pens)
Tyler Kleven - Travis Hamonic 0.9 - 1.1
35.8 (8)

Joonas Korpisalo 4
Anton Forsberg 2.8
6.8
------------------
80.4 (17)

Trade bait:

Erik Brännström
Mathieu Joseph
Anton Forsberg
A fourthrounder or two.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Change is hard. While changing, they are thinking more vs reacting while the change takes hold. Still evident in a couple of our top players.
Getting to and going through another season with no playoff hope has effected their effort on many nights , both these go to maturity and personnel.
Cheating for offense may have led to more offense so ... I am guessing goal scoring is down. I think that has to do with the change, and the approach away from run and gun. The immaturity of this team also hindered the acceptance of change and the willingness to change imo... Any form of system or team structure requires everyone pulling on the same rope. We did not have that. It took time and that time took away opportunity to make the playoffs which in turn caused more sulk.

I believe the direction JM and DA set towards a more defensive mindset , better play without the puck , better attention to details is the right one, I do not believe you can win in the NHL unless there is sound team defense.

I think its a very simplistic way to look at it that we should be climbing the standings if we have improved in some areas and thus must have got worse in other areas. If that remains your question. I don't think I can help you.

Yes, I think it takes time for a new system to be routine. The players that have been around played the same way under DJ for several years. You could see that the team didn’t like the change initially, then kind of bought in after 10 games or so and we had a few mini win streaks. But, then we kind of fell off playing the same way again and some inconsistency crept in.

Like JM said, you have to play good, structured team D, and goals will be generated from strong team D and counter attacking. But, it takes time before this becomes routine. Defensive zone coverage seems to be lacking at times and its like they are still trying to figure out what they are supposed to be doing.

I do think though some of these fundamentals don’t get thrown out the window when the new coach steps in.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

You realize half the GMs in the league played with or against Staios? He absolutely knows these guys and has connections, kind of crazy to think otherwise.

If he wanted to make more moves at the deadline, I'm sure he could have. That doesn't mean they'd have been in the best interest of the team, or that by making bad moves it would have shown he has connections.

Playing vs dealing with. I don't think he is in the club yet. You have to get hosed a few times before they let ya win a trade.

 

[jbeck5]

Is that really the case?

5v5 xGF are up under Martin, scoring chances, HD chances all up. Sh% is down though. So are they playing worse or are they just not getting the finish that they did in a relatively small sample under DJ?

The thing is, when it comes to goal for and against, it takes a good chunk of the season for rates to stabilize, the sample needs to get large enough before you really have a good feel for what to expect. We simply didn't have that sample size by the time DJ got fired.

Not the exact team, but you could use last year's numbers as well as the first 26 games under DJ to get a sample of about 100 games and then compare it to the almost 50 games with Jacques just to get rough estimates so it eliminates luck during small samples...but then I guess it brings its own issues using data over 2 seasons.

 

[Micklebot]

Not the exact team, but you could use last year's numbers as well as the first 26 games under DJ to get a sample of about 100 games and then compare it to the almost 50 games with Jacques just to get rough estimates so it eliminates luck during small samples...but then I guess it brings its own issues using data over 2 seasons.

Last year DJ's team had the worst 5v5 sh% in the league and was bottom 10 in GF/60 at 2.4, that would lower DJ's numbers significantly. In fact, the GF/60 comes out almost identical at 2.53 v 2.54, but as you said, different rosters so it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

Playing vs dealing with. I don't think he is in the club yet. You have to get hosed a few times before they let ya win a trade.

Lot's of assumptions here and moving of the goalposts, from doesn't have any connections to well, he's not in the club yet and they need him to get hosed before they'll let him win, which is frankly another kind of crazy take, opposing GM's don't let you win a trade, they make trades they think will help their team.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Lot's of assumptions here and moving of the goalposts, from doesn't have any connections to well, he's not in the club yet and they need him to get hosed before they'll let him win, which is frankly another kind of crazy take, opposing GM's don't let you win a trade, they make trades they think will help their team.

No moving goal posts. 100% assumptions.

As I stated, this is based on his actions and commentary during the trade deadline.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

For sure. It's easy for a fresh GM with little to no connections (or favours owed back to him), to get all the right moves in his first off-season in his career.

fresh GM with little to no connections (or favours owed back to him) ….. AKA …… Rookie GM

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

did you just start watching hockey? I can still remember seeing Staois on TSN every week for a decade when he was in the NHL.

And you keep pulling the Tocchet hire out - it was done by a rookie GM with no connections and so was that entire franchise turnaround in 1 season so have some faith

I’m a big Steve Staois fan - I’m a Staliever

No connections? Did you just start watching hockey?

The Canucks “Rookie GM” had at least 20 years of working in the NHL, building up connections, before becoming. Rookie GM….. and he did not bring in a substitute teacher, for a predetermined period of time, and did not wait until the offseason to begin to do the heavy lifting.


He was a scout for the Canadiens for four seasons, before moving on to the Pittsburgh Penguins for 16 years ( three Stanley Cups ) and was an Assistant GM with the Canucks before taking over from Rutherford…. So lots of NHL connections.

Our Owner brought in a POHO, and now GM, who had limited NHL experience … about four year in total between the leafs and Oilers… in player development… not much chance of making NHL connections, after moving to the OHL after a short stint in the NHL.


So equating Steve Staios with Patrik Allvin is a non starter….. and a stretch.

Bringing in Rick Tocchett mid season, last year, and getting a giant head start on this season has worked really well and I suspect will be shown to have been a better move than what SSs timid move to bring in a substitute teacher, write off the season, and begin all over in training latter this September

You think a guy with an 18 year career as a player, 5 years working for NHL teams, 7 years as a GM in the OHL and time with Hockey Canada has little to no connections? That's quite the take.

Not at the NHL level…. Perhaps he shows us this summer that he can shed his training wheels.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I do think this. I think it shows at trade deadline how many moves he was able to make.

I do hope for the best, but I have a feeling it will not be as most are over assuming

He did pluck a couple of plugs off the waiver wire!

 

[Tuna99]

No connections? Did you just start watching hockey?

The Canucks “Rookie GM” had at least 20 years of working in the NHL, building up connections, before becoming. Rookie GM….. and he did not bring in a substitute teacher, for a predetermined period of time, and did not wait until the offseason to begin to do the heavy lifting.


He was a scout for the Canadiens for four seasons, before moving on to the Pittsburgh Penguins for 16 years ( three Stanley Cups ) and was an Assistant GM with the Canucks before taking over from Rutherford…. So lots of NHL connections.

Our Owner brought in a POHO, and now GM, who had limited NHL experience … about four year in total between the leafs and Oilers… in player development… not much chance of making NHL connections, after moving to the OHL after a short stint in the NHL.


So equating Steve Staios with Patrik Allvin is a non starter….. and a stretch.

Bringing in Rick Tocchett mid season, last year, and getting a giant head start on this season has worked really well and I suspect will be shown to have been a better move than what SSs timid move to bring in a substitute teacher, write off the season, and begin all over in training latter this September




Not at the NHL level…. Perhaps he shows us this summer that he can shed his training wheels.

You’ve done more research on the Canucks GM then you have the Sens GM

You’re literally saying he has no NHL connections and he was hired by an NHL OWNER (only 32 of them) and he hired Alfie, Dave Poulin and Jacques Mattin within weeks of being hired.

Staois has one of 32 of the most coveted jobs in the NHL and you’re here saying he has no connections - like long distance phone and internet didn’t work in Hamilton when he was working there - it’s bizarre.

 

[inthewings]

Can we get an update to the HF programming that hands out auto-bans for the term “rookie GM”?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You’ve done more research on the Canucks GM then you have the Sens GM

No, a Quick Look at Wikipedia shows the 20 plus years the Canucks GM has, compared to the 4 or 5 Staios has…

pretty simple to say Allvin has more NHL connections than Staios does…

Can we get an update to the HF programming that hands out auto-bans for the term “rookie GM”?

What about Fresh GM, as some posters have been using?

 

[Golden_Jet]

No connections? Did you just start watching hockey?

The Canucks “Rookie GM” had at least 20 years of working in the NHL, building up connections, before becoming. Rookie GM….. and he did not bring in a substitute teacher, for a predetermined period of time, and did not wait until the offseason to begin to do the heavy lifting.


He was a scout for the Canadiens for four seasons, before moving on to the Pittsburgh Penguins for 16 years ( three Stanley Cups ) and was an Assistant GM with the Canucks before taking over from Rutherford…. So lots of NHL connections.

Our Owner brought in a POHO, and now GM, who had limited NHL experience … about four year in total between the leafs and Oilers… in player development… not much chance of making NHL connections, after moving to the OHL after a short stint in the NHL.


So equating Steve Staios with Patrik Allvin is a non starter….. and a stretch.

Bringing in Rick Tocchett mid season, last year, and getting a giant head start on this season has worked really well and I suspect will be shown to have been a better move than what SSs timid move to bring in a substitute teacher, write off the season, and begin all over in training latter this September




Not at the NHL level…. Perhaps he shows us this summer that he can shed his training wheels.

Why did Alvin wait a year before hiring Tocchet, hmmm

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Playing vs dealing with. I don't think he is in the club yet. You have to get hosed a few times before they let ya win a trade.

He should ask Dorion on how to get hosed. Guy is a pro at it.

 

[Senscore]

I want to see someone ask Staios about meeting the challenge of being a GM nobody owes favours to. Just to see the puzzled look on his face.


This shit is getting truly insane

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

He should ask Dorion on how to get hosed. Guy is a pro at it.

Like that time he offloaded EK65?

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Like that time he offloaded EK65?

Zibanejad trade
Duchene trade
Dadanov trade
Murray trade
Stone trade
Debrincat trade

 

[Relapsing]

Zibanejad trade
Duchene trade
Dadanov trade
Murray trade
Stone trade
Debrincat trade

'Member the time Dorion made a trade and the team wanted a 3rd back, which we didn't have, so instead of trying to negotiate their demand down, he just gave then a 2nd instead?

Also loving the ek trade reference. A trade that only worked out in the end because SJ shat the bed and we got 3oa for it.

 

[Micklebot]

'Member the time Dorion made a trade and the team wanted a 3rd back, which we didn't have, so instead of trying to negotiate their demand down, he just gave then a 2nd instead?

View attachment 841015

Also loving the ek trade reference. A trade that only worked out in the end because SJ shat the bed and we got 3oa for it.

If I recall, The ask was a 4th so we gave them a 3rd, I know the running joke is Dorion always threw in a 2nd but in this case it was a 3rd

 

[Relapsing]

If I recall, The ask was a 4th so we gave them a 3rd, I know the running joke is Dorion always threw in a 2nd but in this case it was a 3rd

Thanks for clarifying. Still absolutely ridiculous

 

[Xspyrit]

Thanks for clarifying. Still absolutely ridiculous

Let's add the Hoffman and Stepan trades to your point.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Crazy how we should have GAINED picks for taking on Zaitsev, Stepan and Hamonic, yet we gave up two 2nds and a 3rd for all of them