F William Moore - USNTDP, USHL (2025 Draft)

[Dominance]

He would have complained that Moore was Canadian if Moore been born and raised in the US but had 1 Canadian parent. It's a pattern that anyone with any ties to Canada is always Canadian.

That’s an undeniable structural advantage - like upwards of 10% of Americans drafted each year have a Canadian flag on their EP because their hockey-playing fathers are Canadian - but those kids are obviously American and most at least play their hockey in the States.

Moore is not American, by any real measure and certainly not by any measure of hockey. Born and raised here and took advantage of the best development league in the world, poached by the USNTDP who could promise this and that including truly unparalleled facilities.

Yeah the kid would probably barely know to skate had he signed up with Little Caesars, or the Mission, or Shattucks, or with Bishop Kearny... he owes it all to the mighty Canadian development system!

He's eligible because he is a dual-citizen (or eligible to become one? I guess I don't know the exact specifics of how it works). Molecule wise he has parentage that would qualifies him for U.S. citizenship, and he is a hockey player, thus making him an American hockey player regardless of where is living.

Hmm, that an exact quote? I'm guessing not. Hope you develop enough perspective one day to realize that which jersey a kid may or may not wear some day at the World Juniors is not akin to fighting against your homeland in a war.

It is an exact quote from an article.

 

[William H Bonney]

That’s an undeniable structural advantage - like upwards of 10% of Americans drafted each year have a Canadian flag on their EP because their hockey-playing fathers are Canadian - but those kids are obviously American and most at least play their hockey in the States.

Moore is not American, by any real measure and certainly not by any measure of hockey. Born and raised here and took advantage of the best development league in the world, poached by the USNTDP who could promise this and that including truly unparalleled facilities.

Of course there is a structural advantage. Hockey is a niche sport in America whereas the neighboring country is the most hockey obsessed country in the world. A lot of kids playing hockey in America are only doing so because they have a parent (i.e., Canadian) whose familiarity with the sport is why the kid is even playing the sport in the first place. It's not all that different than why you see tons and tons of dual citizens on the Canadian baseball or basketball or soccer (just like the US) teams.

The point of my comment is you've complained endlessly when the shoe is on the other foot. That a player is Canadian even though they were born, raised, and trained in the US because they have one Canadian parent, while usually having one American parent, too. Now your argument is shifting because Moore's parents aren't Canadian and he just happened to be born there during a temporary job assignment for his American dad and then they decided to stay.

Moore is an American. He's also Canadian. And Brazilian. Had he not wanted to go to the NTDP and eventually represented Canada, it would have been completely understandable. And if that had been the case and any USAH fans were criticizing it, they would have been misguided. It's ridiculous that you feel compelled to claim whether a player is American or not, whether they should or shouldn't represent a country they're eligible to represent, or claim why they're doing so without any evidence.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Glad to have a player like Moore in the fold but let's not pretend this is anything more than a mercenary approach on his part. The USNTDP for all its warts is a great development path. That's the only lens Moore is looking through. There is no patriotism or even all that much affinity. I don't think that's all that strong with most young people today anyway.

 

[Dominance]

Of course there is a structural advantage. Hockey is a niche sport in America whereas the neighboring country is the most hockey obsessed country in the world. A lot of kids playing hockey in America are only doing so because they have a parent (i.e., Canadian) whose familiarity with the sport is why the kid is even playing the sport in the first place. It's not all that different than why you see tons and tons of dual citizens on the Canadian baseball or basketball or soccer (just like the US) teams.

The point of my comment is you've complained endlessly when the shoe is on the other foot. That a player is Canadian even though they were born, raised, and trained in the US because they have one Canadian parent, while usually having one American parent, too. Now your argument is shifting because Moore's parents aren't Canadian and he just happened to be born there during a temporary job assignment for his American dad and then they decided to stay.

Moore is an American. He's also Canadian. And Brazilian. Had he not wanted to go to the NTDP and eventually represented Canada, it would have been completely understandable. And if that had been the case and any USAH fans were criticizing it, they would have been misguided. It's ridiculous that you feel compelled to claim whether a player is American or not, whether they should or shouldn't represent a country they're eligible to represent, or claim why they're doing so without any evidence.

At absolutely zero point have I ever said a player who was born, raised, and played all his junior hockey in the US is actually Canadian. That’s absurd.

This poaching is completely different.

Glad to have a player like Moore in the fold but let's not pretend this is anything more than a mercenary approach on his part. The USNTDP for all its warts is a great development path. That's the only lens Moore is looking through. There is no patriotism or even all that much affinity. I don't think that's all that strong with most young people today anyway.

There’s no doubt that it’s the best development path available to him.

 

[Postulates]

Glad to have a player like Moore in the fold but let's not pretend this is anything more than a mercenary approach on his part. The USNTDP for all its warts is a great development path. That's the only lens Moore is looking through. There is no patriotism or even all that much affinity. I don't think that's all that strong with most young people today anyway.

We can't know that maybe he spent a lot of time in the United States visiting his grandparents and family, we can not know 100% if this was a mercenary move because he could have a real connection built

 

[WarriorofTime]

That’s an undeniable structural advantage - like upwards of 10% of Americans drafted each year have a Canadian flag on their EP because their hockey-playing fathers are Canadian - but those kids are obviously American and most at least play their hockey in the States.

Moore is not American, by any real measure and certainly not by any measure of hockey. Born and raised here and took advantage of the best development league in the world, poached by the USNTDP who could promise this and that including truly unparalleled facilities.


It is an exact quote from an article.

I'm not going to insult you. I think just at the end of the day, none of this is NOT SERIOUS. As as American, we lose a fair amount of "dual-citizens" to Canada as well. All I'm saying is let's just keep perspective... if either of our countries ever were to be invaded we would both send young men and women to fight and literally DIE for each other's each country because at the end of the day, we are friends and allies, and we always will be. I know we have developed a (from what a perceive to be) HEALTHY ice hockey rivalry, at least at the Junior level, but nothing will ever change that.

For many kids.... who have ties to both USA and Canada.... whether they represent USA or Canada in international competition... who the *BLEEP* cares.. don't you see how for every person of Canadian "blood" that spreads the sport globally that is only a great thing? As an American, I know we will probably never actually surpass Canada in Ice Hockey in my lifetime, and even if we ever did in terms of World Juniors or Best-on-Best senior tournament results or whatever, it would only be due to the overwhelming CANADIAN influence on making Ice Hockey more popular in the United States?

At the end of the day, I can never understand directing FURY at a 15 year old kid for doing what he thinks is best is for his hockey future. The USNDPT offers a unique opportunity for a 16 year old kid to play in a PROVEN development path with the upside of First Line/PP1 opportunity as opposed to a big unknown.... to imply this CHILD is a TRAITOR to his country.... when we all know at the end of the day, he and those his age would be enlisted on the front lines if either of our country's national sovereignty were ever truly threatened... I just can't get behind. Remember, these kids know how to use Google. I don't know if this particular player has or will see this particular thread on this particular site, but I would not want him to come across this and see people call him someone who has chosen to "Betray his Country" with such an assertion unchallenged.

 

[Torts]

All of this banter and isn't it ironic he played for Team Ontario at the 2023 Canada Games lol.

 

[kyle44]

but I would not want him to come across this and see people call him someone who has chosen to "Betray his Country" with such an assertion unchallenged.

Dude, the quote is from Moore himself.

 

[canuck2010]

This youngster is free to make up his own mind and best wishes to him. I would make the same decision as he is making. As a Canadian it pisses me off. It isn't good for Canadian hockey or minor hockey across Canada. We're seeing more and more of the top Canadian players choosing to play in another country and despite what some others have said on this board that isn't a good thing. In some cases the players are as young as 18 and have nothing to return to after making a life in the USA. Having your most talented citizens in any field leaving your country is not a good thing. It's about more than hockey and Canada needs to up its game.

The other factor in all of this dual shit especially when it comes to the offspring of Canadian hockey players that pisses me off is the arbitrary nature of the whole situation. Nothing more than the NHL draft will likely decide nationality of future players. Compared to the USA there are few professional teams in Canada and that makes it far more likely that players offspring will be American.

In the spirit of good and healthy competition it makes beating the USA sweeter lol. Cheers to all.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

We can't know that maybe he spent a lot of time in the United States visiting his grandparents and family, we can not know 100% if this was a mercenary move because he could have a real connection built

His father is American so anything is possible. It's pretty clear he identifies as Canadian first though-which makes sense as that is where he was born and raised. In the end, these kids are trying to make the NHL and will take the path that will best get them there. The USNTDP is a key part of that journey eve if it;s only for a year or so.

This youngster is free to make up his own mind and best wishes to him. I would make the same decision as he is making. As a Canadian it pisses me off. It isn't good for Canadian hockey or minor hockey across Canada. We're seeing more and more of the top Canadian players choosing to play in another country and despite what some others have said on this board that isn't a good thing. In some cases the players are as young as 18 and have nothing to return to after making a life in the USA. Having your most talented citizens in any field leaving your country is not a good thing. It's about more than hockey and Canada needs to up its game.

The other factor in all of this dual shit especially when it comes to the offspring of Canadian hockey players that pisses me off is the arbitrary nature of the whole situation. Nothing more than the NHL draft will likely decide nationality of future players. Compared to the USA there are few professional teams in Canada and that makes it far more likely that players offspring will be American.

In the spirit of good and healthy competition it makes beating the USA sweeter lol. Cheers to all.

I would say Hockey Canada is benefiting from guys like Power and Fantilli playing in the U.S.-no? In the end, hockey overall benefts when there are a large number of divergent yet equally viable paths to reach the NHL.

 

[kyle44]

His father is American so anything is possible. It's pretty clear he identifies as Canadian first though-which makes sense as that is where he was born and raised. In the end, these kids are trying to make the NHL and will take the path that will best get them there. The USNTDP is a key part of that journey eve if it;s only for a year or so.


I would say Hockey Canada is benefiting from guys like Power and Fantilli playing in the U.S.-no? In the end, hockey overall benefts when there are a large number of divergent yet equally viable paths to reach the NHL.

There's a difference between Power/Fantilli and the Moore situation. Power and Fantilli played their minor hockey careers in the Canadian development system and chose to go to the USHL because they wanted to play college hockey. They still represent Canada internationally.

Conversely, Moore played his minor hockey in Canada and benefitted from that system but is, in all likelihood if he plays 2 years with the NTDP, going to lock into playing for the USA internationally once he plays at the U-18s.

Personally, I don't think most Canadians care if players think they can develop better in the USHL/NCAA (e.g., Fantilli, Power and Celebrini), it's when kids benefit from the Canadian system for a huge chunk of their hockey careers (and in many cases have lived in Canada their whole life) and then choose to represent the United States internationally. This has gone both ways historically (e.g., Celebrini has been playing in the USA for quite some time). I'm just simply pointing out what I believe some have taken issue with.

As a Canadian hockey fan, the Moore situation is a bit tougher to swallow than the sons of Canadian NHLers playing for the NTDP as, in many cases, those kids were born, raised and played their hockey careers in the USA.

 

[SimGrindcore]

Bottom line, WHO CARES!?!

Can we talk about the player habilities instead on debating on his nationality an allegiance??

 

[Postulates]

His father is American so anything is possible. It's pretty clear he identifies as Canadian first though-which makes sense as that is where he was born and raised. In the end, these kids are trying to make the NHL and will take the path that will best get them there. The USNTDP is a key part of that journey eve if it;s only for a year or so.


I would say Hockey Canada is benefiting from guys like Power and Fantilli playing in the U.S.-no? In the end, hockey overall benefts when there are a large number of divergent yet equally viable paths to reach the NHL.

What I was getting at was we do not to what extent of a connection and experience with the USA outside of his dad and dads side of family, maybe that's not the furthest it goes. Come his draft year we will probably see something else pop up when he's profiled.

 

[WarriorofTime]

There's a difference between Power/Fantilli and the Moore situation. Power and Fantilli played their minor hockey careers in the Canadian development system and chose to go to the USHL because they wanted to play college hockey. They still represent Canada internationally.

Conversely, Moore played his minor hockey in Canada and benefitted from that system but is, in all likelihood if he plays 2 years with the NTDP, going to lock into playing for the USA internationally once he plays at the U-18s.

Personally, I don't think most Canadians care if players think they can develop better in the USHL/NCAA (e.g., Fantilli, Power and Celebrini), it's when kids benefit from the Canadian system for a huge chunk of their hockey careers (and in many cases have lived in Canada their whole life) and then choose to represent the United States internationally. This has gone both ways historically (e.g., Celebrini has been playing in the USA for quite some time). I'm just simply pointing out what I believe some have taken issue with.

As a Canadian hockey fan, the Moore situation is a bit tougher to swallow than the sons of Canadian NHLers playing for the NTDP as, in many cases, those kids were born, raised and played their hockey careers in the USA.

You're talking a bit out of both sides here. If a kid takes advantage of Canadian Minor Hockey and U.S. Junior and Collegiate Hockey, isn't he ultimately just benefitting from both? What makes Minor Hockey so much more sacred? What if a kid played for both the Toronto Marlboros and Compuware (Canada and USA) during the course of his development before even hitting Junior Hockey? In the case of Fantilli, before playing Junior Hockey with the Steel, he attended and played at a Prep School in New Hampshire. I dunno the exact rules for what makes a kid eligible to play for Canada or USA, but if a kid has a choice then some kids will go one way and some another.

He isn't a "fake" American or he wouldn't be eligible for USA to begin with. It's not like some countries that just give citizenship to whomever. It's not only Canadians that play for USA, there have been guys like Tyler Myers, Jamieson Oleksiak and Jakub Chychrun that had dual citizenship and spent time in both countries and then opted for Canada internationally. People want to pretend it's some hard and fast rule where you MUST be one or the other, but it's more complicated for a lot of people. Not everyone lives and is born in the same country, which is also the same country their parents were born and lived their whole lives in.

 

[Mathieukferland]

The Moore case is ok because he has a parent from the USA, but the real annoying case of poaching for me was Thomas Bordeleau, who lived a few months of his life in the USA and didn’t speak English that well when arriving at NTDP; clearly a québécois and a product of Québécois hockey

 

[kyle44]

You're talking a bit out of both sides here. If a kid takes advantage of Canadian Minor Hockey and U.S. Junior and Collegiate Hockey, isn't he ultimately just benefitting from both? What makes Minor Hockey so much more sacred? What if a kid played for both the Toronto Marlboros and Compuware (Canada and USA) during the course of his development before even hitting Junior Hockey? In the case of Fantilli, before playing Junior Hockey with the Steel, he attended and played at a Prep School in New Hampshire. I dunno the exact rules for what makes a kid eligible to play for Canada or USA, but if a kid has a choice then some kids will go one way and some another.

He isn't a "fake" American or he wouldn't be eligible for USA to begin with. It's not like some countries that just give citizenship to whomever. It's not only Canadians that play for USA, there have been guys like Tyler Myers, Jamieson Oleksiak and Jakub Chychrun that had dual citizenship and spent time in both countries and then opted for Canada internationally. People want to pretend it's some hard and fast rule where you MUST be one or the other, but it's more complicated for a lot of people. Not everyone lives and is born in the same country, which is also the same country their parents were born and lived their whole lives in.

I'm not talking out of both sides whatsoever. Fantilli and Power were top prospects when they left the Canadian development system; they didn't magically become good once they landed in the USHL. They received supports and training through the Canadian development system for the overwhelming majority of their hockey careers that helped make them the players they are today and that is returned by Fantilli and Power representing Canada internationally.

That same system helped Moore become the player he is today, but USA hockey now gets to benefit from it when the American system had no role in his development up until now. That's the difference.

I never once said Moore was a "fake" American, and he is perfectly within his right to represent the USA for whatever reason he sees fit, but his situation (and the Bordeleau example cited by the poster above) is not the same as Fantilli/Power.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Canadian or American what difference does it make? North American private leagues have killed international competition.

Almost 10 years without senior international competition with NHL players... Even the U18 and U20 tournaments are denigrated.

And even if there were real Canada/USA in the senior international competitions, I don't think William Moore is strong enough to play in one of the two teams. Even more to switch the level of one of the two teams.

Thank you NHL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm not talking out of both sides whatsoever. Fantilli and Power were top prospects when they left the Canadian development system; they didn't magically become good once they landed in the USHL. They received supports and training through the Canadian development system for the overwhelming majority of their hockey careers that helped make them the players they are today and that is returned by Fantilli and Power representing Canada internationally.

And the USHL/NCAA did nothing?

This whole talk of "systems" is silly... all these players would likely still be top players regardless of where they played Pee-Wees....

 

[kyle44]

And the USHL/NCAA did nothing?

This whole talk of "systems" is silly... all these players would likely still be top players regardless of where they played Pee-Wees...

Sure, a players development trajectory before they turn 17 is "silly."

I'm sure American posters would be thrilled if top American prospects suddenly decided to represent Canada despite playing their entire career in the USA.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sure, a players development trajectory before they turn 17 is "silly."

I'm sure American posters would be thrilled if top American prospects suddenly decided to represent Canada despite playing their entire career in the USA.

Jakub Chychrun's minor career timeline is basically Fantilli's in reverse. Born in USA, All American Minor Hockey until 15, then Canada and then Canadian Juniors. He opted to play for Canada internationally, which citizenship he holds via his parents.

 

[kyle44]

Jakub Chychrun's minor career timeline is basically Fantilli's in reverse. Born in USA, All American Minor Hockey until 15, then Canada and then Canadian Juniors. He opted to play for Canada internationally, which citizenship he holds via his parents.

I'm aware, and he's about the only example you'll find where the situation is reversed.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Fantilli. He's not American, doesn't represent the USA internationally and nobody is complaining that he went to play in the USA. That would be like me complaining that Jack Hughes should represent Canada since he played in Toronto up until he was 16.

 

[Dominance]

The Moore case is ok because he has a parent from the USA, but the real annoying case of poaching for me was Thomas Bordeleau, who lived a few months of his life in the USA and didn’t speak English that well when arriving at NTDP; clearly a québécois and a product of Québécois hockey

Yeah that was an egregious example as well. Bordeleau was never projected to be anything really special though, so it’s easier to shrug off.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't know why you keep brining up Fantilli. He's not American, doesn't represent the USA internationally and nobody is complaining that he went to play in the USA.

Because it shows the inconsistency of it all if the point is "development system"

It is what it is, when you're the best at something, you'll see more of an exodus in that particular direction, but with Moore it's a unique opportunity. The Foligno brother actually chose to play for different teams, would have been interesting if they ever played in a World Championships against each other, but never appeared to happen.

 

[clevelandcane]

This is easy gents. If a kid is born and raised in Canada and has Canadian/US citizenship and opts to play for the US I'd be a little miffed if I'm Canadian.

 

[wetcoast]

He would have complained that Moore was Canadian if Moore been born and raised in the US but had 1 Canadian parent. It's a pattern that anyone with any ties to Canada is always Canadian.

To be fair I think the "spirit" of the other poster reflects my immediate gut emotional reaction to when one of our top hockey players choose another country over us and we are the tiny country beside the USA.

Thinking of soccer one guy going to England and the other a female striker who was a difference maker for the Us Woman's team.

Of course young players and all players would have more freedom and direction to take their own career paths.