F Frans Karjalahti - HIFK U15 Juniors (2028 Draft)

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

Definitely impressing production for his age. If things continue to go well, I hope he'll make the jump to Sweden or NA for 26/27 season. I really don't want to see another prospect spending years in the void between u20 and Liiga

 

[just a hockey fan]

Definitely impressing production for his age. If things continue to go well, I hope he'll make the jump to Sweden or NA for 26/27 season. I really don't want to see another prospect spending years in the void between u20 and Liiga

I still haven't seen any player actually develop into a great player by playing their DY outside of Finland so to me it's always interesting to see the obsession to have Finns leave Finland. I'd understand if the top Finns in the NHL played in NA but all of them came through their country's system.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I still haven't seen any player actually develop into a great player by playing their DY outside of Finland so to me it's always interesting to see the obsession to have Finns leave Finland. I'd understand if the top Finns in the NHL played in NA but all of them came through their country's system.

I know he’s having a bad year, but Maccelli?

 

[just a hockey fan]

I know he’s having a bad year, but Maccelli?

I guess he could be one though I meant the ones who play 1st line minutes and are PPG players. So if Maccelli is the only player that kinda gets close to that then it doesn't seem like it's the best or "right" path to follow just for the sake of it. I don't see NA or Sweden as some magical, sure-fire place that will develop Finns so much better than staying home. Maybe the current crop who went to the CHL will change my view though. And I'm not opposed to players going somewhere else, only that at this point it's not a proven track record to becoming top NHLers.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

I still haven't seen any player actually develop into a great player by playing their DY outside of Finland so to me it's always interesting to see the obsession to have Finns leave Finland. I'd understand if the top Finns in the NHL played in NA but all of them came through their country's system.

99% of the time the best prospects stay in Finland since they are promised Liiga minutes, so the sample we have of prospects playing elsewhere on DY is primarily made out of mid-late round level talents. It's only natural you wont have a great success rate with that kind of talent. Juuso Välimäki is the only good prospect who left early that comes to my mind. Didn't exactly turn into a star, but he got absolutely fcked by injuries and is still at least an NHLer. Good Dman by Finnish standards I'd say.

Pretty simple why I'm pushing for players to make the jump. The level of play in u20 Liiga is low compared to other jr. leagues, and pushing a 16 year old to play against men twice his size is often completely unfair and only increases the risk of injury. Brad Lambert is the example I'll always use with this. Too good for u20 at 16 years old, but not mature enough for Liiga. Ended up wasting 2 years in Finland when he could have been playing a major role in WHL like he did in 22-23.

 

[just a hockey fan]

99% of the time the best prospects stay in Finland since they are promised Liiga minutes, so the sample we have of prospects playing elsewhere on DY is primarily made out of mid-late round level talents. It's only natural you wont have a great success rate with that kind of talent. Juuso Välimäki is the only good prospect who left early that comes to my mind. Didn't exactly turn into a star, but he got absolutely fcked by injuries and is still at least an NHLer. Good Dman by Finnish standards I'd say.

Pretty simple why I'm pushing for players to make the jump. The level of play in u20 Liiga is low compared to other jr. leagues, and pushing a 16 year old to play against men twice his size is often completely unfair and only increases the risk of injury. Brad Lambert is the example I'll always use with this. Too good for u20 at 16 years old, but not mature enough for Liiga. Ended up wasting 2 years in Finland when he could have been playing a major role in WHL like he did in 22-23.

Are they all simply promised minutes or are most of them fully deserving of them? I believe the majority of the best prospects deserve those minutes and they very much benefit from pro minutes compared to going to junior hockey in a different country. Other than Lambert I guess, I can't remember a big Finnish prospect who wasn't ready to play pro in some role as a 16-17yo. There can be different opinions on that of course. I also personally wouldn't leave if I got real chances at the pro level and I showed that I can be effective at this level.

We have to also consider the lack of examples of the best talent leaving to play elsewhere, has to be a relatively big part for the best opting to stay in Finland.

I don't agree with you completely. Grass isn't always greener in other countries and I will almost always see pro minutes in the top European leagues as the better path for the best prospects. If a Finn would get offered top minutes in the SHL then that's an understandable move. But a good role in the Liiga would be better than junior hockey. The top talent will be good enough for the pro game and they'll benefit from the pro environment and added competition a lot. Lambert could've left if he or his dad/agent wanted him to no? They chose to stay and try the pro game and it didn't work for him in Finland.

Let's see how things turn out with Karjalahti and the other talent coming through in Finland, I'm guessing we might see a pro debut from him next season and we'll see how he looks in the U20 league with a bigger sample size too.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

Are they all simply promised minutes or are most of them fully deserving of them? I believe the majority of the best prospects deserve those minutes and they very much benefit from pro minutes compared to going to junior hockey in a different country. Other than Lambert I guess, I can't remember a big Finnish prospect who wasn't ready to play pro in some role as a 16-17yo. There can be different opinions on that of course. I also personally wouldn't leave if I got real chances at the pro level and I showed that I can be effective at this level.

And I really don't think "some role" is good enough when discussing developing young player. There's a reason AHL is considered a superior place to develop over playing 10 minutes a game in NHL level. Same applies here. 10-13mins TOI for 40 games a season is not good enough when competition in other countries is playing 17-20mins TOI for 60 games. That's like 2-3x more hockey compared to Finns, at an age where the focus should be in hockey skills, not gym results.

There's at least one high end prospect that's grinding low minutes on DY almost every year. Some of the recent: Aa.Räty (11min), Kiviharju (13min), Halttunen (9min), Hemming (10min).

 

[just a hockey fan]

And I really don't think "some role" is good enough when discussing developing young player. There's a reason AHL is considered a superior place to develop over playing 10 minutes a game in NHL level. Same applies here. 10-13mins TOI for 40 games a season is not good enough when competition in other countries is playing 17-20mins TOI for 60 games. That's like 2-3x more hockey compared to Finns, at an age where the focus should be in hockey skills, not gym results.

There's at least one high end prospect that's grinding low minutes on DY almost every year. Some of the recent: Aa.Räty (11min), Kiviharju (13min), Halttunen (9min), Hemming (10min).

Well I do. A player can be good enough to play pro, even in big roles but you can't give them everything on a silver platter. Or do you suggest that a young player should immediately give up and run back to junior hockey and turn away from healthy competition instead of showing that he's deserving of a bigger role ahead of established players who are elite on that level? Starting as a 3rd liner is not a bad thing, The elite NHL talents will work their way up and get bigger minutes quickly. They just aren't treated like gods and like they a don't have to put in work, developing their game to a higher level and of course helping the team win. Also there's 60 games in the Finnish league no? So the elite talents will play most of those minus the games missed because of NT tournaments or injuries. A few games in the U20 league doesn't kill careers even though that's a common opinion when it's Finland people are talking about.

I remember people saying it was a lot of issues in the personal life of Raty, wanting to quit hockey, covid etc. Kiviharju changed teams so it's completely understandable and acceptable that a young dman is played less on a new team and there was the injury so mentioning his games is not worth it, Halttunen did nothing in many games I watched (and he wasn't a high end prospect to me, not a top 10 one anyways) Hemming developed his defensive game so that's still important development for him. I don't know what the team's fans thought about his minutes and whether he deserved to play more. Going to the OHL hasn't been a great move, there's no doubt that he should be a PPG player at the junior level, simply going to a different country isn't a good enough of an excuse.

 

[Albatros]

Could always defect back to Jokerit where he'd have a bigger role at a younger age if his development continues as it has. Their U20 team is better than HIFK as well.

 

[AntsaGrifk]

He his slow but I like his style