Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

[AtlantaWhaler]

Yeah but having the North American HQ of Mercedes and a bunch of other foreign companies helps Atlanta's economy and sports teams.

Oh, totally. And in no way am I saying that Hamilton is a barren wasteland. I'm just noting that Houston is an economic powerhouse with 7.5 million population. The NHL should want to be there.

 

[GKJ]

That doesn't stop Canada dead enders from hitting Atlanta with the stick of 'Sun Belt teams are bad from a fandom standpoint'

It’s just straight denial at this point. We know it’s happening. Just a matter of who and when.

 

[Takuto Maruki]

It’s just straight denial at this point. We know it’s happening. Just a matter of who and when.

Moreover...the NHL has effectively set the template for expansion for *all* NA sports being less about punitive punishment towards expansion teams for absolutely no reason, and giving expansion franchises a fighting chance with generous expansion drafts and safe railings. So there's less of a chance of 'failure' (which to those types, is almost always a moving target) unless whichever ATL 3.0 ownership group just straight up decides not to bother.

 

[aqib]

Oh, totally. And in no way am I saying that Hamilton is a barren wasteland. I'm just noting that Houston is an economic powerhouse with 7.5 million population. The NHL should want to be there.

Tim Leiweke's interview with the Toronto media last week basically said the NHL was never going to Hamilton. Again, its not because the NHL doesn't think that a franchise there would do well. There is no reason to believe it wouldn't do well. Even Bill Daly was asked a few years ago about Southern Ontario and he said something to the effect of it wasn't great from an "exposure" standpoint. Which was just another way of saying that people in Southern Ontario are already hockey fans.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Tim Leiweke's interview with the Toronto media last week basically said the NHL was never going to Hamilton. Again, its not because the NHL doesn't think that a franchise there would do well. There is no reason to believe it wouldn't do well. Even Bill Daly was asked a few years ago about Southern Ontario and he said something to the effect of it wasn't great from an "exposure" standpoint. Which was just another way of saying that people in Southern Ontario are already hockey fans.

So former Oilers GM Kevin Lowe got in hot water when in his introductory press conference talked about there being two different kinds of fans - basically fans that might watch the game at home, but then there are fans that spend good money to go to games.

The thinking is if you put a team in Hamilton you might not turn non-hockey-fans into hockey fans - but you turn passive fans into ones that go to games (and buy the merch).

 

[CincyCBJ]

I recently had a conversation with someone close to the Cincinnati bid. The ownership group would be mostly the same as FC Cincinnati, which just privately built a 250M stadium in the city. They want to build a brand new arena next door for either a NHL or NBA team. I don't think there is anyway a NBA team would come here, but I could see NHL for one major reason. Money.

The ownership group is lead by the Linder brothers, who are both worth billions. Meg Whitman is also involved as she is also an owner of FCC, who is also a multi billionaire. The founder of TQL, a Cincy based logistics company, would also be involved and is worth billions as well. So there is plenty of money behind the bid and they recently self funded a soccer stadium and are willing to build a new arena to complement their soccer stadium and mixed use development around them.

I have no idea what the interest is from the NHL, I know the group here in Cincy is serious though with plenty of money to back it up and have had multiple conversations with the league about a team. I personally think it will be an uphill battle for them, but they do check a lot of boxes. If other, larger and "sexy" media markets, want a team with a similar ownership group, I doubt Cincy gets a team. But if larger markets don't have the same ownership commitment, I could see a surprise bid coming this way based solely on the ownership group and their commitment.

 

[voyageur]

I don’t necessarily disagree with “Hamilton is a bigger hockey market than Houston” but that isn’t the question if you’re looking at a comparison. The question “Does Hamilton+Toronto get more fans than Houston+Toronto?” And the answer there is most likely “no,” because again… most of Hamilton’s fans would come from existing Maple Leafs fans.

I guess the question is are there more hockey fans in the GTA/Golden Horshoe or Texas? Because merchandising is a big league wide money maker...

 

[Jets4Life]

The Twin Cities are a busy market for their size, but they also have a lot of potential corporate support. They have 18 Fortune 500 company HQs, and a likewise high GDP per capita.

Could they hit the equivalent of 10,000 full season tickets? The Minnesota Wild aren't quite the beloved brand the Leafs or Bruins are. They've only been around about 25 years, without much success on the ice.

Minneapolis-St. Paul is probably uniquely positioned to be able to support two NHL teams.

They have already tried this, and it failed. Plus, I can't imagine the T'Wolves being to keen on sharing the Target Center with an NHL team. It would also cut into the Wild ticket base. It's much more likely that two teams in the twin cities would cannibalise each other, as opposed to being successful.3.5 million people is just not enough to support two teams in one major league.

Cincinnati would be a growth market, to me, especially in growing the game into Kentucky.

It would be...except Oho already has the Blue Jackets in Columbus, Cleveland is losing people and oversaturated with sports, and as someone said earlier, Cincinnati has not really grown much in the past 20 years. Cincinnati also does not have the bests track record of supporting basketball or hockey.

 

[Jets4Life]

I guess the question is are there more hockey fans in the GTA/Golden Horshoe or Texas? Because merchandising is a big league wide money maker...

I am not sure why some people are lumping the entire GTA (7,000,000 people) into any Hamilton bid. They won't come.

Toronto is a Leafs town, and the idea of the GTA lining up to buy season tickets to see a Hamilton NHL team play is ridiculous. Hamilton has Burlington, and possibly Oakville, Cambridge, and Brantford to draw people from, unless the Leafs are playing.

A second team in the GTA ([preferably the 905 area), would work much better than a Hamilton team.

 

[ponder719]

I guess the question is are there more hockey fans in the GTA/Golden Horshoe or Texas? Because merchandising is a big league wide money maker...

The question is whether there are more hockey fans in the GTA willing to switch allegiances to the Tigers in the short term to outweigh the benefits of developing a hockey culture in Houston over the next couple generations. You need basically everything to go right for Hamilton (and that everything might well include "Buffalo carks it and relocates to Hamilton") for it to stay ahead of Houston's capacity for growth for more than 10-15 years.

 

[Tawnos]

I guess the question is are there more hockey fans in the GTA/Golden Horshoe or Texas? Because merchandising is a big league wide money maker...

That’s really not the question when it comes to expansion. It’s not about existing fans. It’s about creating fans.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Hey, it’s simple enough. If area X has so many more fans than area Y, and therefore area X has a chance to be a bigger moneymaker as a result, then area X should have no problem getting an interested party bidding a billion bucks for a team, right?

 

[voyageur]

That’s really not the question when it comes to expansion. It’s not about existing fans. It’s about creating fans.

I already said what I thought so to repeat myself. The fact Hamilton is renovating the Copps with the same people that helped Seattle get in tells me something...that Hamilton wants an NHL team...I said I think that team is Ottawa...their owner is a Hamilton guy and there is no regulations in Hamilton in who can buy tickets and the rink isn't in pasture land. Plus they are a bell property and I think it's fair to say Hamilton has a greater regional broadcasting area than Ottawa, as a Bell sponsored team. Just trying to connect some dots. This to me might reconcile the expansion process of 1991 where Hamilton had a stronger bid than Ottawa, but the league took the only 2 bids that offered the seemingly high price of 50 million back then, with some shady money thrown around. League has since grown under Bettman. I feel like at the right price both Leafs and Sabres would sign off. Probably be the only $1 billion bid for a team forthcoming.

I understand the expansion process which was largely done to improve TV deals in the U.S, and grow the viewership of the sport. I understand the corporate allure of both Houston and Atlanta, and I think both those markets will get franchises in due time.
.
I also stated that expansion would water down the league more. So I am not in favour of it. I think by and large now that the Arizona situation is resolved the league is more stable. Obviously Houston would be in the league if Fertitta had put money down for a team. Maybe he will find investors and double down... Atlanta still needs an ownership group to step up and a place to play. So one problem at a time.

 

[edog37]

The NFL . is purely an American League & will never expand outside the USA boarder & here is the reason why first you got Toronto as seen by Buffalo Bills series of pre & regular season games there was failure & did not draw well then you would have to build a new stadium & you have the CFL. enough said Mexico City on the other hand is not quite ready a major league American sports team then you have the thin air to deal with since Mexico City has twice the altitude above sea level as Denver . So in my opinion the only cities can host an NFL. team are St. Louis , San Antonio , San Diego , Orlando , Birmingham , Memphis & Oakland

The NFL will be in Europe in the next 15 years. England & Germany will have a couple of teams.

I already said what I thought so to repeat myself. The fact Hamilton is renovating the Copps with the same people that helped Seattle get in tells me something...that Hamilton wants an NHL team...I said I think that team is Ottawa...their owner is a Hamilton guy and there is no regulations in Hamilton in who can buy tickets and the rink isn't in pasture land. Plus they are a bell property and I think it's fair to say Hamilton has a greater regional broadcasting area than Ottawa, as a Bell sponsored team. Just trying to connect some dots. This to me might reconcile the expansion process of 1991 where Hamilton had a stronger bid than Ottawa, but the league took the only 2 bids that offered the seemingly high price of 50 million back then, with some shady money thrown around. League has since grown under Bettman. I feel like at the right price both Leafs and Sabres would sign off. Probably be the only $1 billion bid for a team forthcoming.

I understand the expansion process which was largely done to improve TV deals in the U.S, and grow the viewership of the sport. I understand the corporate allure of both Houston and Atlanta, and I think both those markets will get franchises in due time.
.
I also stated that expansion would water down the league more. So I am not in favour of it. I think by and large now that the Arizona situation is resolved the league is more stable. Obviously Houston would be in the league if Fertitta had put money down for a team. Maybe he will find investors and double down... Atlanta still needs an ownership group to step up and a place to play. So one problem at a time.

Both Toronto & Buffalo will nix that.

 

[tucker3434]

I already said what I thought so to repeat myself. The fact Hamilton is renovating the Copps with the same people that helped Seattle get in tells me something...that Hamilton wants an NHL team...I said I think that team is Ottawa...their owner is a Hamilton guy and there is no regulations in Hamilton in who can buy tickets and the rink isn't in pasture land. Plus they are a bell property and I think it's fair to say Hamilton has a greater regional broadcasting area than Ottawa, as a Bell sponsored team. Just trying to connect some dots. This to me might reconcile the expansion process of 1991 where Hamilton had a stronger bid than Ottawa, but the league took the only 2 bids that offered the seemingly high price of 50 million back then, with some shady money thrown around. League has since grown under Bettman. I feel like at the right price both Leafs and Sabres would sign off. Probably be the only $1 billion bid for a team forthcoming.

I understand the expansion process which was largely done to improve TV deals in the U.S, and grow the viewership of the sport. I understand the corporate allure of both Houston and Atlanta, and I think both those markets will get franchises in due time.
.
I also stated that expansion would water down the league more. So I am not in favour of it. I think by and large now that the Arizona situation is resolved the league is more stable. Obviously Houston would be in the league if Fertitta had put money down for a team. Maybe he will find investors and double down... Atlanta still needs an ownership group to step up and a place to play. So one problem at a time.

I would typically say that the NHL wouldn't get involved and kind of let the market be the market, but I think they'd put up a road block for Ottawa. The NHL should be in Canada's capital, and there's nothing wrong with that market. It hasn't been as strong as the rest of Canada, but still not one you'd throw away.

Buffalo was mentioned above. That's Hamilton's best shot. With Buffalo already being in Toronto's region, that negotiation would have to be much easier. But I still think it's a long shot. Many things would have to go wrong in Buffalo in a row for it to happen.

All Houston has to do is flip the switch. If Fertitta writes the check, it's done. It could basically happen overnight. There doesn't need to be much smoke for that to happen. There is a lot of smoke in Atlanta though. Multiple groups are trying to make that happen.

 

[dj4aces]

I guess the question is are there more hockey fans in the GTA/Golden Horshoe or Texas? Because merchandising is a big league wide money maker...

If I had to guess, I would say GTA has more hockey fans. However, with markets like Houston, Atlanta, et al, it's less about financial gains and the fans who exist there today (though it, of course, is still a factor) and more about long term successes and fans who will exist in the future.

While I think the league would highly prefer a market with growth potential, like a Houston or Atlanta, I'm sure an ownership entity that has $1bn + indemnity money and wants to put a team in the GTA or anywhere else, could conceivably come in and make the case.

So I guess the question would then become, is there anyone or any entity who has the money and wants to buy an expansion franchise from the league and put it in the GTA, Hamilton, etc?

Atlanta still needs an ownership group to step up and a place to play. So one problem at a time.

Atlanta has multiple parties who have met with the league and have a stated goal of bringing the league back to the area. "Step up" is something they've already done.

 

[voyageur]

I would typically say that the NHL wouldn't get involved and kind of let the market be the market, but I think they'd put up a road block for Ottawa. The NHL should be in Canada's capital, and there's nothing wrong with that market. It hasn't been as strong as the rest of Canada, but still not one you'd throw away.

Buffalo was mentioned above. That's Hamilton's best shot. With Buffalo already being in Toronto's region, that negotiation would have to be much easier. But I still think it's a long shot. Many things would have to go wrong in Buffalo in a row for it to happen.

All Houston has to do is flip the switch. If Fertitta writes the check, it's done. It could basically happen overnight. There doesn't need to be much smoke for that to happen. There is a lot of smoke in Atlanta though. Multiple groups are trying to make that happen.

I don't know what's wrong with Buffalo but I think the Pegulas would take a briefcase of money for a team in their region. Offsets any losses and more travelling fans to Buffalo is one way to fill the rink...In terms of demographics Southern Ontario is growing. And probably captures more TV viewers than Prairie Canada combined. The fanbase of Leafs Nation could support more teams than New York. An Anti Leafs team in Ontario is good for business. Ottawa isn't really that kind of market and you can argue that they are fairly easily converted into Habs fans...my opinion.

 

[voyageur]

If I had to guess, I would say GTA has more hockey fans. However, with markets like Houston, Atlanta, et al, it's less about financial gains and the fans who exist there today (though it, of course, is still a factor) and more about long term successes and fans who will exist in the future.

While I think the league would highly prefer a market with growth potential, like a Houston or Atlanta, I'm sure an ownership entity that has $1bn + indemnity money and wants to put a team in the GTA or anywhere else, could conceivably come in and make the case.

So I guess the question would then become, is there anyone or any entity who has the money and wants to buy an expansion franchise from the league and put it in the GTA, Hamilton, etc?


Atlanta has multiple parties who have met with the league and have a stated goal of bringing the league back to the area. "Step up" is something they've already done.

I think you are right to say that if Atlanta and Houston put reasonable bids in the NHL will expand there....Bettman can reasonably pitch the fact that the NHL still has the least amount of American markets among the big sports in terms of growth potential as a major league.

 

[aqib]

So former Oilers GM Kevin Lowe got in hot water when in his introductory press conference talked about there being two different kinds of fans - basically fans that might watch the game at home, but then there are fans that spend good money to go to games.

The thinking is if you put a team in Hamilton you might not turn non-hockey-fans into hockey fans - but you turn passive fans into ones that go to games (and buy the merch).

Well you'd have people who would normally go to Leafs games if they weren't obscenely expensive. Some of those would be fans of other teams. Like if you're an Oilers fan and they are in town for a game against the Leafs and then one against the Hamilton Tigers, the Leafs game would cost you $300 while you might be able to get to the Tigers game for $100. Even if you're a casual Leafs fan living somewhere in between Toronto and Hamilton and you like hockey you might just start going to Hamilton games because you can actually get tickets.

Also if you live in Waterloo, London, etc. you may be more of a casual fan but you drop a team into Hamilton and they get more into hockey or if you're a transplant to the area with no real hockey ties you may take up the sport. Or if you're the child of immigrants who never followed hockey you might be more likely to follow the sport if there is a team closer to you than downtown Toronto.

There may also be switchers. Before the Nets moved to Brooklyn there were many rumors over the years about them going to various places. When Long Island was making a push for them some of my college friends who were huge Knicks fans said they would get season tickets. Now in Brooklyn there are lots of converts who were Knicks fans before.

Again the NHL still thinks its better to go to a place where there aren't already a lot of hockey fans and make them into hockey fans. I obviously don't agree with it but I am not in charge.

 

[aqib]

If I had to guess, I would say GTA has more hockey fans. However, with markets like Houston, Atlanta, et al, it's less about financial gains and the fans who exist there today (though it, of course, is still a factor) and more about long term successes and fans who will exist in the future.

While I think the league would highly prefer a market with growth potential, like a Houston or Atlanta, I'm sure an ownership entity that has $1bn + indemnity money and wants to put a team in the GTA or anywhere else, could conceivably come in and make the case.

So I guess the question would then become, is there anyone or any entity who has the money and wants to buy an expansion franchise from the league and put it in the GTA, Hamilton, etc?


Atlanta has multiple parties who have met with the league and have a stated goal of bringing the league back to the area. "Step up" is something they've already done.

Lets not act like Southern Ontario isn't growing. We literally having a housing crisis because of the number of people moving here and the lack of places for them to live.

As far as their being a person or entity willing to put a team here, there have been many overtures made to the NHL over the years and the answer has always been no. Balsillie wasn't the only person wanting a team in Hamilton. Tom Gaglardi wanted to buy the Thrashers and move them to Hamilton, but they wound up in Winnipeg and he wound up buying the Stars. Who knows what would have happened if Glendale hadn't made two $25 million payments and they went to Winnipeg instead. Maybe Gaglardi would have gotten them.

There was also the Markham proposal, Remington who later bid for the Senators were behind that one. So there have been legitimate parties interested in putting a second team here. However, Bettman always shoots it down:



(this one in particular is annoying because he is cool with SoCal having 2 and NY having 3. Also the Chargers draw almost 70K fans a game even though the Rams won the Super Bowl the first year the Chargers were in SoFi stadium)

Despite all that the league's own internal analysis shows that a second Southern Ontario team would do well: https://www.thestar.com/sports/hock...cle_223f6a97-f632-57a4-a66e-ef2f2d7fa4ea.html

So the bottom line is, Southern Ontario could easily support a second NHL team and even the NHL knows it but the NHL doesn't want to put a second team here for other reasons and has made that clear.

 

[tucker3434]

Lets not act like Southern Ontario isn't growing. We literally having a housing crisis because of the number of people moving here and the lack of places for them to live.

As far as their being a person or entity willing to put a team here, there have been many overtures made to the NHL over the years and the answer has always been no. Balsillie wasn't the only person wanting a team in Hamilton. Tom Gaglardi wanted to buy the Thrashers and move them to Hamilton, but they wound up in Winnipeg and he wound up buying the Stars. Who knows what would have happened if Glendale hadn't made two $25 million payments and they went to Winnipeg instead. Maybe Gaglardi would have gotten them.

There was also the Markham proposal, Remington who later bid for the Senators were behind that one. So there have been legitimate parties interested in putting a second team here. However, Bettman always shoots it down:



(this one in particular is annoying because he is cool with SoCal having 2 and NY having 3. Also the Chargers draw almost 70K fans a game even though the Rams won the Super Bowl the first year the Chargers were in SoFi stadium)

Despite all that the league's own internal analysis shows that a second Southern Ontario team would do well: https://www.thestar.com/sports/hock...cle_223f6a97-f632-57a4-a66e-ef2f2d7fa4ea.html

So the bottom line is, Southern Ontario could easily support a second NHL team and even the NHL knows it but the NHL doesn't want to put a second team here for other reasons and has made that clear.

Until proven otherwise, I believe that reason is the Leafs. If they are entitled to name their price, it should be an absurd number. They've got kind of a great thing going there. I would want well more than a fair offer for someone else to grab a piece of that pie. And if they say no, just gotta keep raking in all that revenue, shucks.

Bettman seemed to indicate in that clip that there wasn't as much interest from an ownership perspective for a team in Hamilton as there was elsewhere. I doubt people think it's worth the premium that it would cost.

In that second clip, it sure sounds like he's using LA and NYC as cautionary tales. The Rangers do incredibly well, sometimes better than the Leafs. The Islands are up and down. The Devils are more down than up. Same out in LA. The Kings do great. Anaheim, not so much. If either market loses a team, there will be no rush to put one back.

Hamilton would do well, not Leafs well. Maybe Vancouver or Calgary well. And I have a feeling you could buy the Flames or Nucks for a good bit less than it would cost to get into Hamilton right now.

 

[Tawnos]

I really have no doubt that a team in Hamilton would work. It really isn't a question of viability for me, but process. There are two factors that work against them landing an expansion or relocation and those factors work *hard* against them. (1) It's only a marginal growth market, at best, which hurts them in the eyes of the league. Maybe this is mitigated if you're talking relocation, but for expansion it's definitely an issue.. (2) The indemnity fee that's going to be required to get the Leafs and Sabres on board is going to be prohibitive. It is such a big issue. I honestly think that you're looking at $250m-$500m going to each of them if you want to put a team there.

And yes, there are 2 teams from each big 4 league in LA, 3 NHL teams and 2 of the others in NYC, and 2 MLB teams in Chicago. But I think those days are essentially over. Yes, the Chargers and Rams both moved to LA in recent history, but LA also has 18 million people in the market and football has the 1 game per week advantage. In the other three leagues, there hasn't been an additional team added to an existing market in the last 30 years. In a lot of ways, the financial stakes are just too big now to risk another team coming into your market and affecting your bottom line. Also, the power balance has shifted more towards the owners and away from the league executive over the course of those 30 years.

 

[dj4aces]

Lets not act like Southern Ontario isn't growing. We literally having a housing crisis because of the number of people moving here and the lack of places for them to live.

Let's not act like I said Southern Ontario isn't growing.

GTA could absolutely support a second team. There's no question in that. However, growth potential of the NHL isn't necessarily about attracting people who are already hockey fans. Growth potential is about attracting people who aren't yet fans. It's about attracting kids to the game, give them a hockey team to grow up with, who'll bring their kids to games, and so forth. It's the actual growth of the NHL in general, and the sport of hockey overall, the league is far more focused on.

So don't get it twisted. I'm not at all claiming S.Ont isn't growing. It just has limited growth potential in terms of bringing new fans to the sport.

 

[aqib]

I really have no doubt that a team in Hamilton would work. It really isn't a question of viability for me, but process. There are two factors that work against them landing an expansion or relocation and those factors work *hard* against them. (1) It's only a marginal growth market, at best, which hurts them in the eyes of the league. Maybe this is mitigated if you're talking relocation, but for expansion it's definitely an issue.. (2) The indemnity fee that's going to be required to get the Leafs and Sabres on board is going to be prohibitive. It is such a big issue. I honestly think that you're looking at $250m-$500m going to each of them if you want to put a team there.

And yes, there are 2 teams from each big 4 league in LA, 3 NHL teams and 2 of the others in NYC, and 2 MLB teams in Chicago. But I think those days are essentially over. Yes, the Chargers and Rams both moved to LA in recent history, but LA also has 18 million people in the market and football has the 1 game per week advantage. In the other three leagues, there hasn't been an additional team added to an existing market in the last 30 years. In a lot of ways, the financial stakes are just too big now to risk another team coming into your market and affecting your bottom line. Also, the power balance has shifted more towards the owners and away from the league executive over the course of those 30 years.

What the NHL would charge in indemnity fees for a second Toronto team is just a theoretical discussion. Maybe the number is more than someone is willing to pay maybe it isn't. However the NHL is even considering Southern Ontario so it hasn't gotten to that point. If say Tom Gaglardi was allowed to buy the Thrashers for relocation, who knows what he would have been willing to pay in indemnity fees. He paid $240M for the Stars who knows how high he would have gone if it was Hamilton. Again we can't say no one will pay when its clear that the NHL isn't entertaining the idea at all.

Regarding LA, there was less than zero enthusiasm for the Chargers in LA. They literally got booed when the Chargers logo was on the screen at a basketball game the day it was announced. When they were at the MLS stadium most of the fans were fans of the opponent. The reason they have a season ticket base in LA is because they are the cheap alternative to the Rams. You can get season tickets for $60 per game there. I doubt you can do that in any other NFL stadium. Even still they make money being behind 7 other major league teams (not counting MLS) and a couple of college programs in that market.

The NHL has had plenty of chances to go down to 2 teams in NY. The Devils were probably saved by the 1995 Cup and the Islanders in part because Bettman grew up a fan but he could have nudged them out if he wanted to.

Let's not act like I said Southern Ontario isn't growing.

GTA could absolutely support a second team. There's no question in that. However, growth potential of the NHL isn't necessarily about attracting people who are already hockey fans. Growth potential is about attracting people who aren't yet fans. It's about attracting kids to the game, give them a hockey team to grow up with, who'll bring their kids to games, and so forth. It's the actual growth of the NHL in general, and the sport of hockey overall, the league is far more focused on.

So don't get it twisted. I'm not at all claiming S.Ont isn't growing. It just has limited growth potential in terms of bringing new fans to the sport.

The NHL is the only sport that looks to markets where people aren't fans. I was reading on The Athletic today about how international markets are picked for NFL games and part of the criteria is how many NFL fans are already in the market. They don't go "hey there are a lot of people there, lets put a game there and see if we can make them fans. You don't see Istanbul on the list of cities for a game even though its got more people than London. Lastly, the bringing kids to games becomes problematic when tickets are so astronomical. A family of 4 you're talking $800 easy for game. A second team would be a lot more affordable similar to the Clippers in LA.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Until proven otherwise, I believe that reason is the Leafs. If they are entitled to name their price, it should be an absurd number. They've got kind of a great thing going there. I would want well more than a fair offer for someone else to grab a piece of that pie. And if they say no, just gotta keep raking in all that revenue, shucks.

So think back to the Anaheim Ducks expansion.

Back then the expansion fee was $50 million - and that fee went 100% to LA Kings owner Bruce McNall. The rest of the league got nothing.

McNall agreed because he was a crook and needed the cash. I'm guessing the NHL agreed to it because they really wanted Disney to be on board (even though Disney sold 12 years later).

But now it 2024? MLSE might agree to a Toronto2 franchise - if they got the $1.2 billion (or whatever) expansion fee. But why would the rest of the league? Now you're just splitting revenue 33 ways instead of 32, and you're not getting anything up front.