Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

[BKIslandersFan]

If I recall correctly, I believe Hamilton put in an expansion bid during the 1990s... so one could argue that a Canadian market lost out because of US expansion. But then again, Ottawa joined the league in 1992, so one could also argue that a Canadian market gained from expansion in the 1990s,

They didn't lose out because of southern teams, they lost out because NHL didn't want them.

 

[dj4aces]

They didn't lose out because of southern teams, they lost out because NHL didn't want them.

Oh, trust me, I don't disagree with you here in the slightest. I'm only presenting what I think some folks would argue when they complain about expansion to southern markets.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

I would have to disagree that two teams in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Boston would be feasible. For one thing, Chicago was not big enough to support two NFL teams, so the Cardinals ended up leaving for St.Louis, and then Arizona. Chicago does have two baseball teams, but the Cubs are the big players in town, and the White Sox are relegated to a second class team

With Minneapolis, there is only 3.5 million people in the area, so I can't see giving a franchise to the city of Minneapolis working. They tried this in the 70s, giving St.Paul a WHA franchise, and despite having a better team than the North Stars, could not survive. The same goes for Boston, which was the original home of the New England Whalers. Other than NYC, LA, and Toronto, I doubt two NHL teams could work in the same metro area.

Even in LA and NY, the Kings and Rangers are the team that most people love, while the Ducks and Islanders are relegated to the back pages.

How big are the Devils in New York? (Not aimed at you. I'm just asking)

 

[ForumNamePending]

The NHL’s *national* TV deal in the US is worth $600m+. EPL doesn’t have any local TV deals, so once you add those in the money the NHL brings in from TV is way beyond EPL. I know that makes it not an apples to apples comparison, but when you’re talking about the value of a TV audience, to me it’s important to look at the entirety of that audience.

Ya, to be honest as I was typing out my post I had something like "+ regional deals probably add at least another..."

...and at that point remembered not too long ago a lot of that had imploded, so decided best to stay out of the weeds and just compare the national deals.

 

[GreenHornet]

If the NHL had decided, say, in 1985 to start arranging neutral-site regular season games in large southern markets, this would be more or a "like-to-like" analogy. And in fact, I'd be willing to bet that if the NHL had adopted that strategy, nary a fan would have complained about it...or at least certainly not to the degree that the staunchest "traditionalists" do on this board. But that doesn't mean that this would have been the better strategy.

FWIW, the NHL actually did adopt this strategy by scheduling neutral site games throughout North America during two seasons in the early- to mid-90s. I want to say it was the '92-'93 and '93-'94 seasons.

I don't remember the exact format, but I think every team in the league played two neutral site games each that season -- one that would serve as one of their "home" games and another that would serve as one of their "away" games.

IIRC, some of the cities involved included Atlanta (after the Flames, before the Thrashers), Minneapolis (just one season after the North Stars moved to Dallas), Dallas (the year before the move), Miami (before the Panthers), Phoenix (before the move of the Jets v1.0), Orlando, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Sacramento, Halifax, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Milwaukee, Peoria, Providence and Oklahoma City. Probably a few more than I don't remember (maybe Kansas City, Houston or San Diego?).

I was at the one in Atlanta, and there was a really good crowd at The Omni for the Bruins and Penguins.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Why is the NHL expanding beyond all 4 major leagues while being by far the smallest?

 

[ForumNamePending]

Why? Simple!

 

[tucker3434]

Why is the NHL expanding beyond all 4 major leagues while being by far the smallest?

Because the NHL can add ~18m potential fans in the next 3 expansions and the other leagues can’t?

 

[PurpleMouse]

Why is the NHL expanding beyond all 4 major leagues while being by far the smallest?

Because the NHL has the fewest American teams right now and can catch up. Being able to put 7 teams in Canada where the other leagues can't is what allows the NHL to be bigger.

 

[Jormungandr]

Is there any reason why Providence has never been considered? Just curious.

 

[tucker3434]

Is there any reason why Providence has never been considered? Just curious.

Only a million people and an hour from Boston. If you’re going to do that, you might as well do QC.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Because the NHL has the fewest American teams right now and can catch up. Being able to put 7 teams in Canada where the other leagues can't is what allows the NHL to be bigger.

Good point.

 

[dj4aces]

Why is the NHL expanding beyond all 4 major leagues while being by far the smallest?

Why? Well... because they want to. Simple as that. But if you really want some reasons to consider...

First, there's currently 32 teams in the NHL, of which only 25 are located in the US, with the other seven in Canada. The NFL has zero Canadian teams, one NBA team, and one MLB team. Even if the NHL adds four new US teams in the next round, it still brings that total to 29 US teams, which is still lower than the other three..

Second, yeah... one absolutely could argue that it's all about the money. Four new franchises means a minimum of US$4bn in expansion fees. This also impacts what the league can reasonably ask for when it comes to the next US broadcast deal. There'd also be more people playing, whether it be in locally-constructed ice rinks, or in the professional leagues. The NHLPA would love that. I will concede that there might be a short-term decline in the quality of player receiving jobs in the NHL, but I would also point out that there's a large number of players in the minors who are more than capable of cracking a NHL lineup, but aren't due to a variety of other reasons.

Third? Well, HOU, ATL, and PHX are top-10 media markets in the US. They're also the three largest metro areas without a NHL team. As @tucker3434 said above, this adds roughly 18m in population as being represented by a NHL franchise, and at least that many potential new fans, not including exurbs and other locations in those states who would support the team.

TL;DR: There are far more pros to expansion than cons at this time.

 

[Jormungandr]

Only a million people and an hour from Boston. If you’re going to do that, you might as well do QC.

I thought the metro was closer to 1.5 million. Which isn’t smaller than SLC or Buffalo. And it’s larger than other cities like QC and Omaha, both of which have been mentioned numerous times. And the proximity to Boston doesn’t mean anything to me either when we’re discussing putting a team in Hamilton.

 

[tucker3434]

I thought the metro was closer to 1.5 million. Which isn’t smaller than SLC or Buffalo. And it’s larger than other cities like QC and Omaha, both of which have been mentioned numerous times. And the proximity to Boston doesn’t mean anything to me either when we’re discussing putting a team in Hamilton.

It’s probably about the same size as SLC but SLC is 400+ miles from the nearest NHL team. Providence is almost a Boston suburb.

Omaha isn’t happening any time soon. Realistically, QC isn’t either. Hamilton is only ever going to get a look after the expansion options get whittled down to places like Omaha. All of them are on the long list, after the league gets to 40 teams. Whenever that happens.

 

[edog37]

Lets not act like Southern Ontario isn't growing. We literally having a housing crisis because of the number of people moving here and the lack of places for them to live.

As far as their being a person or entity willing to put a team here, there have been many overtures made to the NHL over the years and the answer has always been no. Balsillie wasn't the only person wanting a team in Hamilton. Tom Gaglardi wanted to buy the Thrashers and move them to Hamilton, but they wound up in Winnipeg and he wound up buying the Stars. Who knows what would have happened if Glendale hadn't made two $25 million payments and they went to Winnipeg instead. Maybe Gaglardi would have gotten them.

There was also the Markham proposal, Remington who later bid for the Senators were behind that one. So there have been legitimate parties interested in putting a second team here. However, Bettman always shoots it down:



(this one in particular is annoying because he is cool with SoCal having 2 and NY having 3. Also the Chargers draw almost 70K fans a game even though the Rams won the Super Bowl the first year the Chargers were in SoFi stadium)

Despite all that the league's own internal analysis shows that a second Southern Ontario team would do well: Judge muddies battle for Coyotes

So the bottom line is, Southern Ontario could easily support a second NHL team and even the NHL knows it but the NHL doesn't want to put a second team here for other reasons and has made that clear.

Those reasons are solely the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Tell me, why isn’t their second team in Montreal?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Yeah, that can't be understated. I think there's definitely an argument to made for the other leagues to add Canadian teams, but I don't think anyone is realistically expecting the NBA, MLB, and NFL to add teams outside of Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. So maxing out at 3, and probably 2 or 1 instead, means that the other leagues don't proportionally have as large of a Canadian share of teams as the NHL. That invariably leads to more opportunities to expand, if there are willing expansion bidders.

 

[CTHabsfan]

How big are the Devils in New York? (Not aimed at you. I'm just asking)

The Devils are almost nonexistent in New York.

 

[Jets4Life]

FWIW, the NHL actually did adopt this strategy by scheduling neutral site games throughout North America during two seasons in the early- to mid-90s. I want to say it was the '92-'93 and '93-'94 seasons.

I don't remember the exact format, but I think every team in the league played two neutral site games each that season -- one that would serve as one of their "home" games and another that would serve as one of their "away" games.

IIRC, some of the cities involved included Atlanta (after the Flames, before the Thrashers), Minneapolis (just one season after the North Stars moved to Dallas), Dallas (the year before the move), Miami (before the Panthers), Phoenix (before the move of the Jets v1.0), Orlando, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Sacramento, Halifax, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Milwaukee, Peoria, Providence and Oklahoma City. Probably a few more than I don't remember (maybe Kansas City, Houston or San Diego?).

I was at the one in Atlanta, and there was a really good crowd at The Omni for the Bruins and Penguins.

You are correct.

 

[Jets4Life]

Those reasons are solely the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Tell me, why isn’t their second team in Montreal?

There was a second team in Montreal for over a decade. The Montreal Maroons. I believe they were fairly successful on the ice, but they were geared to Montreal's Anglophone community. Off the ice, they struggled, and had to move during the recession. This was at a time when Montreal was not only the largest city in Canada, but the business center as well.

A second team in Montreal would not work. The Canadians are too big, and the city is not large enough to support two teams.

 

[Tawnos]

I thought the metro was closer to 1.5 million. Which isn’t smaller than SLC or Buffalo. And it’s larger than other cities like QC and Omaha, both of which have been mentioned numerous times. And the proximity to Boston doesn’t mean anything to me either when we’re discussing putting a team in Hamilton.

The SLC market is closer to 3 million people. Omaha isn’t a serious candidate in this discussion and if we’re being honest here, neither is Hamilton.

 

[BigT2002]

The SLC market is closer to 3 million people. Omaha isn’t a serious candidate in this discussion and if we’re being honest here, neither is Hamilton.

SLC also has a few other things going for it that Hamilton isn't going to be able to compete with directly:

1. The population is rising pretty significantly as a result of #2
2. It is becoming well known as a premiere location to raise a family as you get Colorado views for non-Colorado prices
3. There is an international airport within the city that doesn't require a layover or a decent drive to get to
4. Most people can point to SLC on a map; I'd like to see them do that for Hamilton
5. It is a great destination for hockey fans to watch a game and bring along a spouse who maybe likes to ski/snowboard since Park City and other areas are there
6. Speaking of that, it is a much better tourist destination than Hamilton is ever going to be (let alone Omaha...you know the state that has tourism ads talking about how NE isn't for everyone)

People can hate on SLC getting a team in a weird relocation manner, but this has the potential upside to get ahead of any potential addition of other major sports and try to grab a draw before there is more saturation in the city.

 

[dj4aces]

If anything Canada should have more MLB, and NBA teams.

I agree. I think part of the issue the leagues face is the question of whether they would be supported with the same levels as they are in Toronto.

These days, I fallow baseball from afar, and basketball not at all, but do feel that both leagues could definitely stand to make some inroads into Canada. Bring back the NBA to Vancouver, and bring back the Expos while we're at it.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If anything Canada should have more MLB, and NBA teams.

NHL punches above it's weight in Canada though because hockey just has that special place in Canada. I pointed out how the Oilers are at the top of the league in revenue - that would definitely not be the case for an NBA or MLB team. I mean we have semi-pro teams in baseball and basketball here and they do fine, but nothing that would make you think an NBA or MLB team would do great business.

If anything - Canada should have more MLS teams. MLS is the league with the most Canadian teams (three) after the NHL, and there's a fair bit of support for soccer here. The creation of the CPL probably makes that unlikely now.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

NHL punches above it's weight in Canada though because hockey just has that special place in Canada. I pointed out how the Oilers are at the top of the league in revenue - that would definitely not be the case for an NBA or MLB team. I mean we have semi-pro teams in baseball and basketball here and they do fine, but nothing that would make you think an NBA or MLB team would do great business.

If anything - Canada should have more MLS teams. MLS is the league with the most Canadian teams (three) after the NHL, and there's a fair bit of support for soccer here. The creation of the CPL probably makes that unlikely now.

I know NBA or MLB will never expand to Edmonton or Calgary, but I think they can support them if they do.

If New Orleans can have NFL and NBA team, I think Edmonton or Calgary can have two.

Vancouver and Montreal definitely can.