Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

[voyageur]

Don't small divisions just increase the likelihood of mediocre teams making the playoffs over better ones?

How is that? Rivalries would be the key. More game against rivals, and with smaller divisions a controllable playoff format guaranteed 2 PTZ/MTZ teams in the playoffs with home starts, and regional representation which would be easy to float to major networks.

 

[voyageur]

I'd say so.

Given how we got to 8 team divisions today, I think the odds of 4 team divisions are about nil. If they wind up with 34 teams, I think it would be more like 5 and 6 team divisions (2 x 6, 1 x 5 in each conference).

Even then, there would probably be some support for just adding a team to two of the existing divisions. I think that alignment would dilute the schedule (take away from divisional games), but the NHL has never asked me what they should do.

I'd say the odds of 3 divisions is negligible because that was absolutely the worst era of modern hockey. Especially in the West the divisions were artificial, two had boundaries that spanned 3 time zones. The only good thing was that there was 8 games a year against your division which is real rivalry, NBC got to pump a lot of Chicago-Detroit, but the time travel in intra Conference games was brutal extending 4 time zones in the West multiple times per season. Playoff format was grossly unpredictable, having Detroit travelling to California, vice versa.

Now there is one less time zone to travel in current alignment but ever since the NHL mandated that each team play each home and away during the season to showcase superstars, there is less rivalry in current divisional alignment, which is the premise for playoff format.. Case in point Toronto vs Montreal, the biggest rivalry you can put on TV, they played 3 times last year, once at the end of the season in a meaningless game.

How is that good for the sport?

Or the networks invested in the league, who have a say? I think there will be changes in alignment and scheduling if expansion continues.

 

[rojac]

How is that? Rivalries would be the key. More game against rivals, and with smaller divisions a controllable playoff format guaranteed 2 PTZ/MTZ teams in the playoffs with home starts, and regional representation which would be easy to float to major networks.

The smaller the division the greater the chance that all teams in that are mediocre at once.

 

[voyageur]

The smaller the division the greater the chance that all teams in that are mediocre at once.

Inversely you could look at the Patrick division of the 70s

 

[Golden_Jet]

The smaller the division the greater the chance that all teams in that are mediocre at once.

If it’s a division of 4, only the winner gets in, the rest are wild cards. This takes care of a poor division one year.

Or the top 2 would get in.

I prefer the larger division

 

[JMCx4]

... Its amazing how many owners the NHL has had go to prison. Off the top of my head you have McNall, Spano, Kumar, Del Biaggio, and Rigas.

But in fairness to the hockey institution, how many of those emprisonments were directly due to NHL business?

 

[aqib]

But in fairness to the hockey institution, how many of those emprisonments were directly due to NHL business?

All but Kumar. He was only half owner of the Islanders and his fraud was at Computer Associates. The others the fraud and teams were intertwined. Spano the fraud was to buy the team (he just got paroled recently). Rigas and McNall used the teams to prop up the frauds and bankrupted them. Then Del Baggio used dirty money to buy into the team.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

FYI, Saskatoons new arena just got funded/conditional approval. Should be shovels in the ground in about a year at the current pace. 3-4 year build. Should be a fancy feature scaled down cross between Tmobile and Rogers place. Arena itself funded for about 700mil, the theatre and performance arts centre across the street is getting 400 mil upgrade as well. Should be over street walkways connecting it, the mall, and the arena.

Just need that casino around there as well.

 

[ponder719]

FYI, Saskatoons new arena just got funded/conditional approval. Should be shovels in the ground in about a year at the current pace. 3-4 year build. Should be a fancy feature scaled down cross between Tmobile and Rogers place. Arena itself funded for about 700mil, the theatre and performance arts centre across the street is getting 400 mil upgrade as well. Should be over street walkways connecting it, the mall, and the arena.

Just need that casino around there as well.

A casino and about 800,000 more people.

 

[Saskatoon]

A casino and about 800,000 more people.

I think Saskatoon could punch above its size but even then I agree that the math doesn't seem to be there

Winnipeg is about 800K so Saskatoon needs to grow by more like 400K

 

[Yukon Joe]

FYI, Saskatoons new arena just got funded/conditional approval. Should be shovels in the ground in about a year at the current pace. 3-4 year build. Should be a fancy feature scaled down cross between Tmobile and Rogers place. Arena itself funded for about 700mil, the theatre and performance arts centre across the street is getting 400 mil upgrade as well. Should be over street walkways connecting it, the mall, and the arena.

Just need that casino around there as well.

I love Saskatoon - grew up there. I well remember the debate over the first arena (which ultimately became SaskPlace) back in the 80s. I remember playing hockey once at the former Blades arena, which was cool s a kid but I now remember was a total dump.

That's a hell of a lot of money to spend for a WHL team and the occasional concert.

 

[CTHabsfan]

I think Saskatoon could punch above its size but even then I agree that the math doesn't seem to be there

Winnipeg is about 800K so Saskatoon needs to grow by more like 400K

I think growing by 800k is more like it, since the NHL would want a market that's better than Winnipeg, not equal.

 

[ponder719]

I think Saskatoon could punch above its size but even then I agree that the math doesn't seem to be there

Winnipeg is about 800K so Saskatoon needs to grow by more like 400K

I agree with CTHabsfan here. Saskatoon probably can punch above its weight; however, Winnipeg, owned by a fabulously wealthy man who brought the team back to Canada as a point of civic pride, knowing the financials were tricky at best, is already making noises about how difficult it is to justify financially. The NHL's going to be looking for more stability than that, and a market that absolutely has to continually punch above its weight, in good times and bad, will almost certainly not be the league's first, second, or twelfth choice.

I suspect that the barrier for entry for any city going forward, unless there's a Ralston-Purina "take the team or we fold" situation or the very specific case of Quebec City getting their team back, is a metro population of 1M+.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I agree with CTHabsfan here. Saskatoon probably can punch above its weight; however, Winnipeg, owned by a fabulously wealthy man who brought the team back to Canada as a point of civic pride, knowing the financials were tricky at best, is already making noises about how difficult it is to justify financially. The NHL's going to be looking for more stability than that, and a market that absolutely has to continually punch above its weight, in good times and bad, will almost certainly not be the league's first, second, or twelfth choice.

So Winnipeg has a partnership as owners. One partner is David Thomson (Third Baron of Fleet). He is indeed Canada's wealthiest man, although he's never lived in Winnipeg that I know (seems to split his time between Toronto and London, England). Other than one question at the very first press conference in 2011 he's never said a word publicly about the Jets (he's been spotted in the owners box once or twice).

The other partner is Mark Chipman. He is not fabulously wealthy. I see online an estimated net worth of $500 mil (which is a mere 1% of Thomson's $50 bil) - but I bet most of that comes from his stake in the Jets. His family wealth otherwise is from a series of auto dealerships - a fine business to be sure, but not the stuff of billionaires.

Chipman has talked about how they want to sell more season tickets, but hard to say how much of that is bluster and how much is real concern.

But all of that being said - the Atlanta to Winnipeg relocation was "of it's time". Franchise valued have increased substantially since then. While Winnipeg is at no risk to relocate, the league is not going to be looking to simply find another Winnipeg for a new expansion team.

 

[jigglysquishy]

City populations are meaningless. So are state/province populations. And the City of Toronto has 2.7 million people, not 6.4. Metro area population is the only thing that really matters, though.

The NYC metro, which encompasses both Newark and Elmont, has 19.5 million people. The Greater Toronto Hamilton Area has 7.1 million.

If you expand the view to include all of the Golden Horseshoe, you get a population of 9.7 million. But if you do the same to look at the NYC combined statistical area, you get 21.8 million.

The truth is that it really isn’t necessary for the NYC metro to have 3 teams and if you were designing a league from scratch, you’re putting 2.

Greater Toronto Hamilton Area is actually 8.1 million now.

Population estimates, July 1, by census metropolitan area and census agglomeration, 2021 boundaries

Annual population estimates as of July 1st, by census metropolitan area and census agglomeration, single year of age, five-year age group and gender, based on the Standard Geographical Classification (SGC) 2021.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

US MSAs are far more liberal for including adjacent municipalities than Canada.

Functional Urban Areas are comparable to an American MSA and Toronto's is about 8.7 million now.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

I love Saskatoon - grew up there. I well remember the debate over the first arena (which ultimately became SaskPlace) back in the 80s. I remember playing hockey once at the former Blades arena, which was cool s a kid but I now remember was a total dump.

That's a hell of a lot of money to spend for a WHL team and the occasional concert.

They have the Rush/NLL..... Which prior to covid regularly had 15K sellouts. Down to about 9-12K now. (which absolutely still makes good money in the NLL)

 

[hockeyguy0022]

The NHL is in a weird spot, it needs gate/luxury revenue, unlike the NFL/MLB/NBA with massive TV and other deals as everyone knows.

So it's a tough spot, it's kind of priced out to the "working folk" except a couple games a year. Sure I can go to a few oilers/flames game and sit in a decent seat for $200-250 etc... but I'm not buying season tickets for 5-10K.

Winnipeg is the best deal, good seats anywhere in the building for $100 bucks basically. With a good team, they are the best deal.

Americans in non original 6 markets are the best, because you can still go to a game for 50-80 bucks in lots of places. hence why.

I still contend there's a space available for new pro league, with better than AHL pay that would be more attractive than the KHL. AHL isn't popular in canada aside from Laval. People won't pay for the "not real thing". Big pool of aged out NHL players and guys who don't want to sit in the AHL for 90-120K a year. If you can bump that into the 200-400K a year, it's more attractive.
Hamilton is getting Renos, QC, Saskatoon, Van (pacific coliseum). There's lots of non pro-15-20K arenas.

 

[Saskatoon]

I agree with CTHabsfan here. Saskatoon probably can punch above its weight; however, Winnipeg, owned by a fabulously wealthy man who brought the team back to Canada as a point of civic pride, knowing the financials were tricky at best, is already making noises about how difficult it is to justify financially. The NHL's going to be looking for more stability than that, and a market that absolutely has to continually punch above its weight, in good times and bad, will almost certainly not be the league's first, second, or twelfth choice.

I suspect that the barrier for entry for any city going forward, unless there's a Ralston-Purina "take the team or we fold" situation or the very specific case of Quebec City getting their team back, is a metro population of 1M+.

There is an ownership group here that has kicked the tires (you can find the odd news article about it) but are playing the game and mostly staying quiet about it.

Corporate is decent here for the size of city as well. I think they could get some good concessions from local government as well for how arena ownership would be structured. This isn't even me saying its a good idea either. As a tax payer I wish the city wasn't building a new arena.

Will be interesting to see how the NHL approaches expansion. For entertainment purposes it certainly doesn't need more teams. However, the owners love expansion fees and the players love more jobs so it is one area the league and PA are on the same side. Sports teams valuations also seem to be growing faster than other investment opportunities. Wouldn't shock me to see some owners willing to lose a bit of money on operations but gain on the valuation.

 

[Yukon Joe]

There is an ownership group here that has kicked the tires (you can find the odd news article about it) but are playing the game and mostly staying quiet about it.

Corporate is decent here for the size of city as well. I think they could get some good concessions from local government as well for how arena ownership would be structured. This isn't even me saying its a good idea either. As a tax payer I wish the city wasn't building a new arena.

Will be interesting to see how the NHL approaches expansion. For entertainment purposes it certainly doesn't need more teams. However, the owners love expansion fees and the players love more jobs so it is one area the league and PA are on the same side. Sports teams valuations also seem to be growing faster than other investment opportunities. Wouldn't shock me to see some owners willing to lose a bit of money on operations but gain on the valuation.

Interesting. As I said I grew up in Saskatoon, remember the short-lived enthusiasm we had for the Blues coming to town, would look fondly on a NHL franchise moving there, as unlikely as I think that would be.

But really - is there an ownership group that could drop $1.2 billion (USD) on a franchise? There are lots of "potential owners" that would love a team at a below-market rate, but the NHL seems to have absolutely no interest in anything that would harm franchise values.

 

[Saskatoon]

Interesting. As I said I grew up in Saskatoon, remember the short-lived enthusiasm we had for the Blues coming to town, would look fondly on a NHL franchise moving there, as unlikely as I think that would be.

But really - is there an ownership group that could drop $1.2 billion (USD) on a franchise? There are lots of "potential owners" that would love a team at a below-market rate, but the NHL seems to have absolutely no interest in anything that would harm franchise values.

It's hard to say they are really quiet

John Graham is one of the few names public about who is interested but wouldn't be the money man. Wouldn't shock me if Jim Pattison was the money side of things attached to the group. From Saskatoon, worth about $10 billion and used to own the Blazers of the WHA. This is just me looking at the pieces and guessing though - again the group has been very quiet

John Graham, the man behind Saskatoon’s NHL bid, could become the league’s most interesting owner

Could an NHL franchise wind up at Saskatoon's Credit Union Centre? There was a time when the idea of an NHL franchise in Saskatoon would have been worth little more than a cheap laugh. But the unexpected bid has gained … <a...

sports.yahoo.com

Murray Edwards is from Saskatchewan but obviously already owns the Flames.

 

[hockeyguy0022]

Interesting. As I said I grew up in Saskatoon, remember the short-lived enthusiasm we had for the Blues coming to town, would look fondly on a NHL franchise moving there, as unlikely as I think that would be.

But really - is there an ownership group that could drop $1.2 billion (USD) on a franchise? There are lots of "potential owners" that would love a team at a below-market rate, but the NHL seems to have absolutely no interest in anything that would harm franchise values.

It's a legacy/love of the game purchase. Big 4 sports care about TV dollars and such now. Hence why it's pretty much big American markets only.

Winnipeg is old old money. Saskatoon would be the same thing. (and was with J. Graham)

I've never seen corporate support as an obstacle. The potash, and other resource companies, just aren't as sexy, but they are as rich as anyone out there.

 

[rojac]

Saskatoon has a metro population of ~350K in a province with a total population of ~1.2M. I just can't see the NHL expanding there.

 

[dj4aces]

There is an ownership group here that has kicked the tires (you can find the odd news article about it) but are playing the game and mostly staying quiet about it.

Corporate is decent here for the size of city as well. I think they could get some good concessions from local government as well for how arena ownership would be structured. This isn't even me saying its a good idea either. As a tax payer I wish the city wasn't building a new arena.

Will be interesting to see how the NHL approaches expansion. For entertainment purposes it certainly doesn't need more teams. However, the owners love expansion fees and the players love more jobs so it is one area the league and PA are on the same side. Sports teams valuations also seem to be growing faster than other investment opportunities. Wouldn't shock me to see some owners willing to lose a bit of money on operations but gain on the valuation.

From a business standpoint, what benefits are there to the league if they granted a franchise to a Saskatoon ownership? Does a Saskatoon franchise increase the value of the league? I think these are important questions, especially when one considers where the league is at today.

I think everyone has a handful of cities where we'd like to see a team, but when one views the league's landscape and their long-term goals through objective lenses rather than ones that are rose-tinted, we'd find that many places on our wishlists wouldn't be able to sustain a team. While I am a bit curious what a franchise in Saskatoon would look like and what one would do for the landscape of the league, I'm not so sure it'd do well, even in the short term.

With that said, I think Saskatoon would be a good place for an AHL or ECHL team.

 

[Saskatoon]

From a business standpoint, what benefits are there to the league if they granted a franchise to a Saskatoon ownership? Does a Saskatoon franchise increase the value of the league? I think these are important questions, especially when one considers where the league is at today.

I think everyone has a handful of cities where we'd like to see a team, but when one views the league's landscape and their long-term goals through objective lenses rather than ones that are rose-tinted, we'd find that many places on our wishlists wouldn't be able to sustain a team. While I am a bit curious what a franchise in Saskatoon would look like and what one would do for the landscape of the league, I'm not so sure it'd do well, even in the short term.

With that said, I think Saskatoon would be a good place for an AHL or ECHL team.

I don't really think it's a great idea but doesn't mean someone won't try (and possibly fail)

As a Saskatoon taxpayer I don't want to build a new arena nor give a sweetheart lease to attract sports but usually nobody cares about the taxpayers in these situations

 

[Yukon Joe]

From a business standpoint, what benefits are there to the league if they granted a franchise to a Saskatoon ownership? Does a Saskatoon franchise increase the value of the league? I think these are important questions, especially when one considers where the league is at today.

I think everyone has a handful of cities where we'd like to see a team, but when one views the league's landscape and their long-term goals through objective lenses rather than ones that are rose-tinted, we'd find that many places on our wishlists wouldn't be able to sustain a team. While I am a bit curious what a franchise in Saskatoon would look like and what one would do for the landscape of the league, I'm not so sure it'd do well, even in the short term.

With that said, I think Saskatoon would be a good place for an AHL or ECHL team.

Repeat after me: "franchise value".

What would Saskatoon theoretically bring to the league? Presumably an owner willing to pay $1.2 billion, thus further establishing the value of an NHL franchise at $1.2 billion. That's the only metric the league is interested in.

There had been a notion that the league needed to expand it's footprint in the southern US to get a big TV deal. That doesn't really seem to be the case - despite teams in Dallas and Florida for decades, it still the big northern teams that drive TV ratings. Just look at what teams they put in the Winter Classic every year.

I don't think the league is going to Saskatoon. I don't think anyone is going to pay $1.2 billion for a team there. But that's the answer to your question. Saskatoon would bring money to the league.


As for AHL or ECHL - the WHL Saskatoon Blades are well established in that city, and have been for 60 years. I very much doubt there'd be much interest in bringing an AHL or ECHL team into town only for it to risk driving the Blades away.