Expansion to 36, which city is number 36?

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Yukon Joe

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So Quebec IS the best choice for #36.

I'd argue the ideal for the NHL would be:
Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Quebec (33-36)
San Diego, Austin, Hamilton, GTA2 (37-40). And if you can't get into SO, I wouldn't see a need to go beyond 36 for a loooong time.

I don't disagree with any of your assessments, but you forget - ownership trumps all.

SLC was barely on the NHL's radar - then Mike Smith came with an open chequebook and now Utah HC is a thing.

If, I dunno, Tony Khan comes forward and really, really wants an NHL team in Jacksonville then that's where the NHL will go.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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I feel bad for QC folks.

I don't blame them for not giving up hope, but the reality is QC is the average girl the NHL talks to trying to make the hot girl they actually want to f*** jealous.

The NHL ain't interested. They just keep talking them to drive up the price/interest of cities they really want to go to.
 

Yukon Joe

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I feel bad for QC folks.

I don't blame them for not giving up hope, but the reality is QC is the average girl the NHL talks to trying to make the hot girl they actually want to f*** jealous.

The NHL ain't interested. They just keep talking them to drive up the price/interest of cities they really want to go to.

To go along with your analogy though - if QC is an "average girl", it's a girl the NHL dropped hints that he might be interested if she changed her hair and lost 10 pounds (aka build a new arena), but even after she did so the league still wasn't interested.
 

Yukon Joe

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Houston, Phoenix (assuming the city gets its crap together) Atlanta, Quebec. If not, Portland over Phoenix

Why Portland?

I mean I'm sure it would be a fine NHL market, but who's the ownership? Paul Allen is dead, Phil Knight is very old, can't think of any other billionaires with Portland ties. And while I think it would be fine, it's not a huge market like Atlanta, Houston or Phoenix.
 

These Are The Days

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Why Portland?

I mean I'm sure it would be a fine NHL market, but who's the ownership? Paul Allen is dead, Phil Knight is very old, can't think of any other billionaires with Portland ties. And while I think it would be fine, it's not a huge market like Atlanta, Houston or Phoenix.
To be fair, there aren't many other cities out west. I am lightly skeptical that KC is big enough to support a 3rd team. Between the Chiefs, Royals, college games and being an events town, it's probably close to tapped out. I may be wrong. And Omaha? I'll admit I was last there 20 years ago but unless it grew exponentially, it's too small. Phoenix is by far the best choice but they'd be back to square one and have to start back at Desert Diamond Arena only to leave for a new place that Phoenix categorically refuses to build thanks to bad government

That leaves Portland and any willing investor. Hope that explains it
 

Voight

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Why would you ask Bettman about Anaheim? Anaheim was awarded the franchise pretty much the same time as Bettman was hired to be comissioner, a job he wouldn't start for another 2 months, so I really doubt he had anything to do with it.

The awarding of the Anaheim and Florida franchises was far less about expanding the footprint of the NHL than it was about bringing in a pair of big time owners. Disney in Anaheim and Wayne Huzienga in Florida. I could be wong about this but I've always assumed that this was an expansion that was pretty much put together by Kings owner Bruce McNall, who as Chair of the BoG, was pretty much running the league at that point as Gil Stein was on the way out as president and they hadn't yet selected someone to fill the role of commissioner (which would be replacing president as the tilte for the league's top executive). I think McNall wanted both to bring in more big-money owners to the NHL and line his own pockets, since he was pretty deeply in debt at the time. If I recall correctly, the1993 expansion came pretty much out of the blue to the general public.

Yea by 93 McNall's house of cards was collapsing and he definitely was the impetus for expansion. In Anaheims case he'd get a cut of the expansion fee and possibly (I dont recall if this happened) a territory fee so he could keep his scam going.
 
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These Are The Days

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I would venture a guess that as soon as the Blazers are out of limbo and sold, there will be whispers of interested parties for the NHL in Portland.
That sounds about right. I would love to see San Diego get a team too but I don't think the NHL is chomping at the bit for what would be a billion dollar investment to play in a near 60 year old arena. Were an owner and newish place that has a 18,000 capacity open, I honestly think they'd have been the choice for expansion over either of VGK or Seattle. Or at least the Coyotes relocation.

Add it all up and I think Portland is probably the choice
 

dj4aces

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To be fair, there aren't many other cities out west. I am lightly skeptical that KC is big enough to support a 3rd team. Between the Chiefs, Royals, college games and being an events town, it's probably close to tapped out. I may be wrong. And Omaha? I'll admit I was last there 20 years ago but unless it grew exponentially, it's too small. Phoenix is by far the best choice but they'd be back to square one and have to start back at Desert Diamond Arena only to leave for a new place that Phoenix categorically refuses to build thanks to bad government

That leaves Portland and any willing investor. Hope that explains it
I get the Portland rationale, but one of the biggest factors for any market is whether there's an interested party to own a franchise in that market. Currently, PDX just doesn't have that.

But with that said, I think it'd be a pretty cool place to have a team.
 

TheLegend

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The road to the NHL in both cities run through the NBA owners. Is Matt Ishbia willing to facilitate another rebuild or Footprint to accomodate hockey otherwise you're looking at 2037. If Fertitta has been discussed ad nauseum. He hasn't bit at previous prices and the price keeps going up. So the only path is if he either sells or if he is forced to take an NHL roommate as part of a future arena deal.

Not sure a private entity facilitating a remodel of a city owned arena is going to be practical on multiple levels

Even if an entity like ASM has a plan in place to take ownership of the arena in Glendale in a few years.
 

ponder719

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I just don't think that necessarily means that ALL future expansion is in the US.

Exactly this. I think you're on the mark here to say that the NHL probably has long (quite long) term plans to reach 40 teams (I genuinely think all four leagues do, in whatever time frame makes sense to them), and the next 8 locations for the NHL almost certainly feature a minimum 6 locations in the US; the question is, are we looking at 6/2, 7/1, or 8/0? (I don't think Mexican expansion is in the cards for the NHL.)

A couple of the locations you mentioned as not viable, I agree with, but they would make some level of sense as escape valves if a team situation falls apart (if something unthinkable happens to the Isles or Devils, Hartford could come online, as it then isn't adding another team in that corridor; if something goes radically wrong in Columbus, I think the NHL would try Cincinnati or Cleveland instead of abandoning Ohio.)

The two Canadian situations that I think we all broadly agree on are Quebec City being one possibility, and GTA2 (be it Hamilton, K-W, Markham, I wouldn't hazard a particular guess here) being the other. I suspect that GTA2, if it happens, comes as a dissolution of the Rogers-Bell partnership, rather than as another force moving in, but either way, it's the most likely stable financial option in Canada, even more so than QC, as long as it can make up for the territorial rights issue.

The question then becomes what locations work in the US in the short, medium, and long term? I think we all agree that 33-35 are Phoenix, Atlanta, and Houston in some order, and 36 is our first opportunity to get a Canadian option; however, if a Canadian team doesn't present itself, I think we have to look at league balance at this point to see what appeals most.

East:
Atl: FLA/TB/TOR/OTT/MTL/BOS/BUF/DET
Met: PHI/PIT/CLB/NYR/NYI/NJ/WAS/CAR

West:
Ctr: DAL/WPG/COL/NSH/STL/MIN/CHI/UTA
Pac: VAN/EDM/CGY/SEA/SJ/ANA/LA/VGK

Phoenix to the Pacific, Houston to the Central, that makes a lot of sense. If you have Quebec or GTA2 to the Atlantic, and Atlanta to the Metro, you're good. But what if Canada doesn't work out? I'm going to hate this as a Flyers fan, but hear me out.

East:
Atl: NYI/NYR/NJ/TOR/OTT/MTL/BOS/BUF/DET
Met: PHI/PIT/CLB/WAS/CAR/ATL/FLA/TB/NSH

West:
Ctr: DAL/WPG/COL/STL/MIN/CHI/UTA/HOU/PHX
Pac: VAN/EDM/CGY/SEA/SJ/ANA/LA/VGK/SD

San Diego to the Pacific, Houston and Phoenix both to the Central, Greater NYC to the Atlantic, and the Florida teams, Atlanta, and Nashville to the Metro. That's probably the most geographically compact option you're going to get, and it's a strong reason for me to think that San Diego, or another Western city, is 36 if no Canadian option works out; it leaves just one Western Conference team switching over, while giving that team a group of relatively easy to reach cities to develop rivalries with. It's also well and truly far enough away from the era of the Southleast (not to mention has 9 teams instead of just the five) to not feel like a recreation of that old mistake, to me.

From either of those starting points, you're then looking at 36-40 being 5 of Quebec City, San Diego, GTA 2, Austin, Portland if the Blazers move, Milwaukee or Madison, Kansas City, Jacksonville ONLY if the Khan family decides they're prepared to shoulder any amount of losses to make it happen (which I doubt), or something loco like New Orleans (a city I love, but is not in a position to add another major sports team. Check back if the Pelicans move.) We're reaching a point where there's interest, sure, but practicality is about to rear its ugly head and shout a lot of these places down.
 

PCSPounder

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Only if the name of the team is Oregon The Trail. It’ll still run afoul of the Trail Blazers, but it’s different and will cheese off ALL the purists.

Phil Knight’s offer to Jody Allen included a younger investor who would clearly be expected to take over when Phil gets lapped by time. Thing is, I suspect Uncle Phil was a cool bill short of Jody’s asking price. Anyway, that plus the city being handed Moda Center means a lot of the old issues are put out to pasture. Just waiting to see the new issues.
 

Tawnos

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I get the Portland rationale, but one of the biggest factors for any market is whether there's an interested party to own a franchise in that market. Currently, PDX just doesn't have that.

But with that said, I think it'd be a pretty cool place to have a team.

Does PDX not have it because there are no interested parties? Or does PDX not have that because right now there are real logistical barriers to an NHL team? There is no need to build a second arena in Portland and the hockey-capable arena was tied up in the same limbo that the NBA team is in until just this past July.

It's not like Atlanta and San Diego, where a potential team is tied into a new building. It's not like Houston where the owner of the arena and NBA team can do what he wants to.

When the situation in Portland was normal, their owner was interested in the NHL. I think once the Trail Blazers are under new ownership, we'll start to see the same noises that Paul Allen was making about NHL interest. In other words, if you're asking who the potential owners for a Portland NHL team are, what you're really asking is who the potential owners of the NBA team are.
 

aqib

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Not sure a private entity facilitating a remodel of a city owned arena is going to be practical on multiple levels

Even if an entity like ASM has a plan in place to take ownership of the arena in Glendale in a few years.
What do you mean? Lets say there was a team in a similar situation as the Coyotes were and need to relocate and Ishbia said "I'll buy it and I'll spend $200 million to expand the arena to make it work for hockey" do you think the city will say "NO! Thats our arena!"
 

TheLegend

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What do you mean? Lets say there was a team in a similar situation as the Coyotes were and need to relocate and Ishbia said "I'll buy it and I'll spend $200 million to expand the arena to make it work for hockey" do you think the city will say "NO! Thats our arena!"

You're casually ignoring what the public reaction would be. Plus.... Ishiba is rich.... but not that rich.

While other cities are approving hundreds of millions in public funding for arenas, Arizona is currently 180 degrees opposite. The last renovation of Footprint didn't come without a heavy resistance from local groups and the only way Phoenix was able to pull it off was they had a funding mechanism already in place. They ended up selling a downtown building they owned at a massive loss to get it done.

These types of things do not go unnoticed.
 
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aqib

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Does PDX not have it because there are no interested parties? Or does PDX not have that because right now there are real logistical barriers to an NHL team? There is no need to build a second arena in Portland and the hockey-capable arena was tied up in the same limbo that the NBA team is in until just this past July.

It's not like Atlanta and San Diego, where a potential team is tied into a new building. It's not like Houston where the owner of the arena and NBA team can do what he wants to.

When the situation in Portland was normal, their owner was interested in the NHL. I think once the Trail Blazers are under new ownership, we'll start to see the same noises that Paul Allen was making about NHL interest. In other words, if you're asking who the potential owners for a Portland NHL team are, what you're really asking is who the potential owners of the NBA team are.
Paul Allen was like Tilman Fertitta. He was interested at a particular price point. He would have bought the Coyotes had they not gotten the arena in Glendale and he had put in a big for the Penguins when they were in bankruptcy. Granted that was a stalking horse bid.

He was ready to jump in had the Glendale/Ice Arizona deal hadn't gone through, however rumors were that Seattle was lined up as the bidder there.

The team has been in Paul Allen's estate for the past 6 years. His sister controls the estate and is supposed to sell the team but doesn't appear to have any desire to do so. If they were sold (Phil Knight has tried to buy them) maybe a new owner would want a hockey team.
 

aqib

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You're casually ignoring what the public reaction would be. Plus.... Ishiba is rich.... but not that rich.

While other cities are approving hundreds of millions in public funding for arenas, Arizona is currently 180 degrees opposite. The last renovation of Footprint didn't come without a heavy resistance from local groups and the only way Phoenix was able to pull it off was they had a funding mechanism already in place. They ended up selling a downtown building they owned at a massive loss to get it done.

These types of things do not go unnoticed.
Forbes says he's worth over $10B which is way more than Ryan Smith. Again its a hypothetical.
 

Tawnos

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shame wisconsin isnt big enough isnt hockey popular then in winter?

The problem with Wisconsin is that the only population center large enough to support a team sits within the Blackhawks market and has an NBA team. If a city the size of Milwaukee sat where Madison is, there would definitely be a good spot for an NHL team in the state.
 

Yukon Joe

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Yea by 93 McNall's house of cards was collapsing and he definitely was the impetus for expansion. In Anaheims case he'd get a cut of the expansion fee and possibly (I dont recall if this happened) a territory fee so he could keep his scam going.

IIRC of the $50 mil expansion fee, McNall got half of it.

Edit:

The league was just excited to have Disney as a part of the league they didn't mind giving up the $25 mil to McNall. McNall was just excited to get his hands on some much-needed cash he didn't care about giving up half of the greater southern California market.
 
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dj4aces

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shame wisconsin isnt big enough isnt hockey popular then in winter?
Wisconsin *is* big enough, really. Milwaukee does, as someone pointed out, sit rather close to the Blackhawks market area (I think it's ~80mi from MKE city limits to CHI city limits). Even then, that could be overcome if there's ownership interest there. Thus far, the only interest in putting a team there is from fans.
 
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Yukon Joe

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The problem with Wisconsin is that the only population center large enough to support a team sits within the Blackhawks market and has an NBA team. If a city the size of Milwaukee sat where Madison is, there would definitely be a good spot for an NHL team in the state.

Milwaukee - I believe it's far enough away that the 50 mile rule doesn't apply. There's also 5.8 million people in Wisconsin itself, with metro Milwaukee being 1.4 mil. It's northern enough they certainly get snow, for what it's worth.

There is something of an issue that existing hockey fans are generally already Blackhawks fans.

But yet again - the issue is ownership. I'm not certain how great the Bucks arena is for hockey - Wiki lists it as 15k-ish for hockey, but it's held a pre-season game and the one picture looks ok if not ideal. But Bucks ownership is a whole consortium of people - which makes me think they don't have the money to invest a billion-plus on an NHL franchise.
 

aqib

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IIRC of the $50 mil expansion fee, McNall got half of it.

Yes that's accurate. He needed he needed it to prop up his fraud.

Its amazing how many owners the NHL has had go to prison. Off the top of my head you have McNall, Spano, Kumar, Del Biaggio, and Rigas.
 

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