Player Discussion Evander Kane

[Zerotonine]

The LTIR loophole is gonna get closed so fast when Kane recovers for game 1 of the playoffs now

This 1000 percent ...
this will be the year its fixed and will NOT be allowed. Id bet the house on it. And edmonton will end up being penalized some way or another for even trying it

 

[bucks_oil]

It would make me feel good if a doctor came out and said Kane's projected return was Feb-March so we had some kind of paper trail

It needs to be April… he would have to be out the whole regular season, not just until the deadline.

But we are in pretty good shape. We actually don’t need to put him on LTIR. We simply IR him and accrue the $950K that we have available (which includes Kane being active on the cap).

Then that 950K becomes $4.5 at the deadline… we can add a good player.

If at the deadline it looks likely that Kane won’t be ready until the playoffs, we LTIR him then… let the NHL look over the records, get satisfied and THEN add a 2nd player at the deadline…

And finally, Kane comes back for round two (just so it doesn’t look too obvious)

 

[Mr Positive]

It needs to be April… he would have to be out the whole regular season, not just until the deadline.

But we are in pretty good shape. We actually don’t need to put him on LTIR. We simply IR him and accrue the $950K that we have available (which includes Kane being active on the cap).

Then that 950K becomes $4.5 at the deadline… we can add a good player.

If at the deadline it looks likely that Kane won’t be ready until the playoffs, we LTIR him then… let the NHL look over the records, get satisfied and THEN add a 2nd player at the deadline…

And finally, Kane comes back for round two (just so it doesn’t look too obvious)

I don't see why we should try to make it less obvious

Besides, there will be no pretending. We will just say that he is getting extra rehab and training, and that there is no sense in him playing in meaningless games. As long as Kane says that those regular season games are not worth the health risk to himself, it's legit. He comes back round 1, game 1

Or, we do what Tampa did and have someone go on LTIR to swap with him, to rest a nagging injury.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

It needs to be April… he would have to be out the whole regular season, not just until the deadline.

But we are in pretty good shape. We actually don’t need to put him on LTIR. We simply IR him and accrue the $950K that we have available (which includes Kane being active on the cap).

Then that 950K becomes $4.5 at the deadline… we can add a good player.

If at the deadline it looks likely that Kane won’t be ready until the playoffs, we LTIR him then… let the NHL look over the records, get satisfied and THEN add a 2nd player at the deadline…

And finally, Kane comes back for round two (just so it doesn’t look too obvious)

Id prefer Kane come back for game 1, just to see what the NHL would do.

Make it as obvious as possible.

 

[Broberg Speed]

If Kane goes on LTIR and the team knows he's staying there until the playoffs the Oilers are pulling the trigger on a Ristolainen deal with Philadelphia retaining 1.1M making Risto a 4M cap hit for 3 years. Kulak and a bunch of futures to the Flyers.

And some clearly don't understand if Kane goes on IR the Oilers don't magically accumulate more cap space for the deadline. They accumulate the exact same amount as they would if Kane was healthy for day one of the season.

 

[bucks_oil]

I don't see why we should try to make it less obvious

Besides, there will be no pretending. We will just say that he is getting extra rehab and training, and that there is no sense in him playing in meaningless games. As long as Kane says that those regular season games are not worth the health risk to himself, it's legit. He comes back round 1, game 1

Or, we do what Tampa did and have someone go on LTIR to swap with him, to rest a nagging injury.

Hmm.... I definitely like the latter if we can swing it. If we put together the type of regular season that we should, a guy like McD or Drai taking a two week break before the playoffs would be great. I'm just not sure what the standard is for LTIR... how do you demonstrate "long term"?

 

[bucks_oil]

If Kane goes on LTIR and the team knows he's staying there until the playoffs the Oilers are pulling the trigger on a Ristolainen deal with Philadelphia retaining 1.1M making Risto a 4M cap hit for 3 years. Kulak and a bunch of futures to the Flyers.

And some clearly don't understand if Kane goes on IR the Oilers don't magically accumulate more cap space for the deadline. They accumulate the exact same amount as they would if Kane was healthy for day one of the season.

The last paragraph is wrong, or at least not clear.

First two lay term definitions:

IR = Injured reserve, usually used for short term, the player still counts against your cap, you don't get any extra space, but you can accrue any natural cap savings that you have.

LTIR = Long Term Injured Reserve, is as it sounds... the player still counts against the cap BUT you also get a buffer amount equivalent to their salary that you can spend above the cap. But only until the player comes back. You also do not get credit for any cap savings that you have (since you've already been given this buffer overage)

If Kane DOES NOT go on LTIR (instead goes on IR): then we CAN accumulate cap space. We are currently $945K below the cap. If we still have that $945 saved up at the deadline, then it equates to $4.5M in annual salary... so we can add a decent big fish.

If Kane DOES go on LTIR: then we CANNOT accumulate cap space for the deadline. We CAN replace Kane's $5.1M in a dollar for dollar way (we essentially are allowed to work within a cap of $88M + $5.1M = $93.1M but ONLY until Kane comes back... when he comes back we need to be cap compliant at $88M so whatever player we replaced him with needs to be gone). That $945K doesn't accrue and grow for the deadline since you are not allowed to accrue your extra space if you are making use of LTIR.

However there is a third option:

1) DO NOT put Kane on LTIR: accrue that $945 until Feb and make a splash... add a $4.5M player.
2) AFTER you acquire the player, it if seems likely Kane is still out till playoffs THEN put him on LTIR to gain $5.1M extra space. Now you can go out and get a 2nd player at the deadline.
3) This is a best of both worlds situation... since we don't NEED to LTIR Kane, then we shouldn't since it let's us accrue that $945K until the deadline... It lets us add a $4.5M player AND a $5.1M player.

 

[North]

As long as there are doctor’s reports indicating Kane can’t come back, the NHL are hooped.

They will definitely want to close that loophole though if a Canadian team takes advantage of it.

 

[Mr Positive]

As long as there are doctor’s reports indicating Kane can’t come back, the NHL are hooped.

They will definitely want to close that loophole though if a Canadian team takes advantage of it.

They want to close the loophole anyway. But, it isn't. Kane's injury is real though, and any rehab he wants or doesn't want to do is his personal choice. Also btw we aren't guilty of using a loophole until we put Kane on LTIR and use his cap space. We might not even do that if we accrue enough space.

My idea for this is that we have a loose cap in the playoffs. We have a cap but it only applies to who is dressed for that game. That let's teams who would default otherwise stay okay

 

[EchoesoftheEighties]

Kane is a beast and a warrior. Team is better when he's healthy and playing. Hopefully he has a speedy recovery and can help us go on another run this season

 

[Tobias Kahun]

If Kane goes on LTIR and the team knows he's staying there until the playoffs the Oilers are pulling the trigger on a Ristolainen deal with Philadelphia retaining 1.1M making Risto a 4M cap hit for 3 years. Kulak and a bunch of futures to the Flyers.

And some clearly don't understand if Kane goes on IR the Oilers don't magically accumulate more cap space for the deadline. They accumulate the exact same amount as they would if Kane was healthy for day one of the season.

If Kane goes on IR, we do accrue space.

There’s a difference between LTIR and IR

 

[Broberg Speed]

The last paragraph is wrong, or at least not clear.

First two lay term definitions:

IR = Injured reserve, usually used for short term, the player still counts against your cap, you don't get any extra space, but you can accrue any natural cap savings that you have.

LTIR = Long Term Injured Reserve, is as it sounds... the player still counts against the cap BUT you also get a buffer amount equivalent to their salary that you can spend above the cap. But only until the player comes back. You also do not get credit for any cap savings that you have (since you've already been given this buffer overage)

If Kane DOES NOT go on LTIR (instead goes on IR): then we CAN accumulate cap space. We are currently $945K below the cap. If we still have that $945 saved up at the deadline, then it equates to $4.5M in annual salary... so we can add a decent big fish.

If Kane DOES go on LTIR: then we CANNOT accumulate cap space for the deadline. We CAN replace Kane's $5.1M in a dollar for dollar way (we essentially are allowed to work within a cap of $88M + $5.1M = $93.1M but ONLY until Kane comes back... when he comes back we need to be cap compliant at $88M so whatever player we replaced him with needs to be gone). That $945K doesn't accrue and grow for the deadline since you are not allowed to accrue your extra space if you are making use of LTIR.

However there is a third option:

1) DO NOT put Kane on LTIR: accrue that $945 until Feb and make a splash... add a $4.5M player.
2) AFTER you acquire the player, it if seems likely Kane is still out till playoffs THEN put him on LTIR to gain $5.1M extra space. Now you can go out and get a 2nd player at the deadline.
3) This is a best of both worlds situation... since we don't NEED to LTIR Kane, then we shouldn't since it let's us accrue that $945K until the deadline... It lets us add a $4.5M player AND a $5.1M player.

Two scenarios:

1. Kane is healthy and on the roster, therefore not on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4M at the deadline.

2. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, therefore on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4M at the deadline.

Neither scenario has anything to do with LTIR.

 

[Soundwave]

I don't think the NHL is as hard on to close this "loophole" as people think.

It could lead to situations where they could face significant legal liability and problems with the NHLPA.

Lets just say for example there becomes a situation as the NHL is "cracking down" on this that a player who is not feeling comfortable enough to play is pushed back into action and then reinjures himself ending his career or something.

The player may well have a very good lawsuit against the NHL for forcing him to play when he didn't feel ready to do so.

 

[VeteranPresence]

As long as there are doctor’s reports indicating Kane can’t come back, the NHL are hooped.

They will definitely want to close that loophole though if a Canadian team takes advantage of it.

I seem to remember seeing a copy of the NHL's bylaws from the 80s, and one item that stuck out was a $1M fine if teams chose to sue the league over their grievances instead of going through the normal in-house arbitration process- a big number in those days.

I am sure they've upped it since, but it would be funny if it hasn't changed a lick and JJ + Bowman decided to consider it the price of doing business should Gary attempt to crack down on the rules only when we try to take advantage of LTIR. I'd love to see Discovery over the Stone situation and how much the league actually bothered to look into it vs. whatever BS they might fling at us.

 

[MessierII]

If Kane goes on LTIR and the team knows he's staying there until the playoffs the Oilers are pulling the trigger on a Ristolainen deal with Philadelphia retaining 1.1M making Risto a 4M cap hit for 3 years. Kulak and a bunch of futures to the Flyers.

And some clearly don't understand if Kane goes on IR the Oilers don't magically accumulate more cap space for the deadline. They accumulate the exact same amount as they would if Kane was healthy for day one of the season.

You don’t accrue more but if he’s out till the playoffs you can exceed the cap by his cap hit.

 

[Broberg Speed]

You don’t accrue more but if he’s out till the playoffs you can exceed the cap by his cap hit.

Or you could put Kane on IR for 20 games, then you'd have 20 games worth of accrued cap space from the 945k of available cap space... then you could place Kane on LTIR after those 20 games and use his 5.1M for another player, exceeding the cap ceiling, but then Kane would have to stay on LTIR until the end of the season unless the club found a way to move cap by another method.

I understand this all. I always have understood this. Nothing I have said goes against this.

 

[MessierII]

Or you could put Kane on IR for 20 games, then you'd have 20 games worth of accrued cap space from the 945k of available cap space... then you could place Kane on LTIR after those 20 games and use his 5.1M for another player, exceeding the cap ceiling, but then Kane would have to stay on LTIR until the end of the season unless the club found a way to move cap by another method.

I understand this all. I always have understood this. Nothing I have said goes against this.

You could do whatever you want it’s just easier to make $$$ work at the deadline. If we could find the right deal earlier though I’m all for it.

 

[bucks_oil]

Two scenarios:

1. Kane is healthy and on the roster, therefore not on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4M at the deadline.

2. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, therefore on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4M at the deadline.

Neither scenario has anything to do with LTIR.

[LATEST EDIT]

Thanks for responding. Now we can clear things up.

What you wrote is not correct. You are missing a third scenario I've added it below and provided links:

THREE scenarios:

1. Kane is healthy and on the roster, therefore not on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4.5M at the deadline. [TRUE $4.5M if we let it ride all the way to the deadline]

2. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, therefore on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4.5M at the deadline. [TRUE]


3. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, and the team elects to place him on LTIR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would NOT accrue to over 4M at the deadline. Instead the Oilers would be allowed to exceed the cap by an amount equivalent to Kane's salary less the amount of space they already have. In this case $5.1M - $945K = 4.155M over the cap ONLY until Kane returns.


https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/LTIR

What’s the Difference Between Injured Reserve and Long-Term Injured Reserve? | Inside The Rink

Hockey is obviously a physical sport which means there are plenty of injuries in the NHL. While some injuries are minor and can just require a game or two in the press box to feel better and get back into the lineup. Other injuries, however, require longer to heal. This means that teams need to […]

insidetherink.com

So the nice part of our situation is that we can take advantage of BOTH 2 and 3. First we accrue the space under #2, then we spend it in trade. Then we LTIR Kane and gain (more or less) his full cap space using #3 LTIR.

 

[bobbythebrain]

As long as there are doctor’s reports indicating Kane can’t come back, the NHL are hooped.

They will definitely want to close that loophole though if a Canadian team takes advantage of it.

Lmao. No they won't. There is no Canadian conspiracy

The league would would love McDavid to hoist the cup

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Lmao. No they won't. There is no Canadian conspiracy

The league would would love McDavid to hoist the cup

The NHL cares far more about these shit markets being winners so they can get new fans rather than McDavid winning the cup

 

[North]

Lmao. No they won't. There is no Canadian conspiracy

The league would would love McDavid to hoist the cup

Okay bobby.

 

[bucks_oil]

Or you could put Kane on IR for 20 games, then you'd have 20 games worth of accrued cap space from the 945k of available cap space...

TRUE, but the moment you put Kane on LTIR, you would lose the benefit of that 20 games (~$1.25M) unless you spend it right away (ie you acquire a player to use up that available space).... because...

then you could place Kane on LTIR after those 20 games and use his 5.1M for another player, exceeding the cap ceiling, but then Kane would have to stay on LTIR until the end of the season unless the club found a way to move cap by another method.

MOSTLY TRUE... you won't get the equivalent of $5.1M. You would get $5.1 minus the $945K you already had, minus the $1.25M you accrued above.

I understand this all. I always have understood this. Nothing I have said goes against this.

Your two scenarios provided before missed out on the fact that we can use IR now to accrue up to $4.5M space (your #2) and then later use LTIR to gain the equivalent of Kane's replacement value.

To game the system fully:
A) Use #2, accrue space
B) Make a trade to spend the space, while still cap compliant,
C) And then if Kane still isn't ready, LTIR him at a later date, and after the 1st trade, so that we gain his full $5.1 buffer above the cap... make another trade

 

[Stoneman89]

Lmao. No they won't. There is no Canadian conspiracy

The league would would love McDavid to hoist the cup

They sure seem to have a weird way of showing that.

 

[bobbythebrain]

They sure seem to have a weird way of showing that.

Like how? Last time I checked the Oilers and the Habs just went to the finals, and they sure didn't lose cuz of some grand conspiracy. In the last 20 years Canadian teams went to the finals 6 times

32 teams, 7 Canadian. The math adds up, just like it did when there were less teams and Canadian teams were in the finals more

 

[Fourier]

[LATEST EDIT]

Thanks for responding. Now we can clear things up.

What you wrote is not correct. You are missing a third scenario I've added it below and provided links:

THREE scenarios:

1. Kane is healthy and on the roster, therefore not on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4.5M at the deadline. [TRUE $4.5M if we let it ride all the way to the deadline]

2. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, therefore on IR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would accrue to over 4.5M at the deadline. [TRUE]


3. Kane isn't healthy and not on the roster, and the team elects to place him on LTIR, the Oilers would have 945k in cap space which would NOT accrue to over 4M at the deadline. Instead the Oilers would be allowed to exceed the cap by an amount equivalent to Kane's salary less the amount of space they already have. In this case $5.1M - $945K = 4.155M over the cap ONLY until Kane returns.


https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/LTIR

What’s the Difference Between Injured Reserve and Long-Term Injured Reserve? | Inside The Rink

Hockey is obviously a physical sport which means there are plenty of injuries in the NHL. While some injuries are minor and can just require a game or two in the press box to feel better and get back into the lineup. Other injuries, however, require longer to heal. This means that teams need to […]

insidetherink.com

So the nice part of our situation is that we can take advantage of BOTH 2 and 3. First we accrue the space under #2, then we spend it in trade. Then we LTIR Kane and gain (more or less) his full cap space using #3 LTIR.

In scenario three before they put him on LTIR they would add someone to get the cap hit as close to the ceiling as they could. They have a roster spot so they could add Savoie on a paper transaction and that would take them to within 100K of the ceiling, Then if they put Kane on LTIR they have the option of adding a 23 roster spot using LTIR, or they could send Savoie back down and they would still have almost the full $945K to accrue.