Erie Otters 2024 - 25 Season Thread, Part I

[OMG67]

Idk I read that as JW was telling DB like hey man, this is your final crack at it. DB based on prior hires, doesn’t have a large pool of young, up and coming candidates so he decides ya know what, let me reach out to my buddy, SB, who I know has so much experience just getting teams to play to a higher more consistent floor. Basically, it was a safer hire for DB and one I’m sure he thought would buy him a few more years. I don’t see how that connects to SB as a future GM .. All it means is Dave was on the hot seat and hired a close friend, a guy who he thought was “safe” so it wouldn’t blow up. Ironically, it’s blowing up as we speak. But with Jim gone, I don’t know what this means for Dave’s job.

no offense to Jim’s family but I don’t get the sense they would be able to step in and make the appropriate hockey operation moves here. Do they know what they are doing? It’s easy to fire a guy but then who do you hire? I don’t have a lot of faith. It’s a disaster right now. The only hope is someone in the family just says hey, we need to clean house and reset here. And then they are smart enough to reach out to a firm or some independent agency to help them do it right when they hire the next GM

I think if they were to clear house, it would make more sense to do it in the offseason.

WRT replacing the head coach for performance related issues, it makes no sense to do it if Brown is on the hot seat. Bring in a new coach on a 3-year contract and you plan to fire the GM in the offseason? So, back to point #1, it makes more sense to clear out your hockey ops in the offseason and bring in a new team starting with the new GM that hires or at least has significant impact on the coaching hire.

This points more to something other than performance. If a coach were fired at this point in the season without the GM being on solid ground, the only thing they could do is assign an interim head coach for the remainder of the year. With this roster, doing that would be pretty much unheard of. Big risk. It also points to the lack of decisiveness of the management/ownership.

For Butler to be pulled away from the team while they do their internal review, it sounds more like the ownership wants to ensure there is a spatial buffer between Butler and the players right now. If it weren’t something that required separation, why separate him from the team? If it is an internal review for performance reasons, why make it public? Just let him coach until you fire him and find a replacement. That is what teams do all the time for mid-season firings. In other words, why would they put out a statement if it is performance based? And, if it is geared more toward Brown being fired, why separate Butler from the bench? Can he not be the GM for a weekend while coaching? Seems absurd.

This points to something non-performance based. I see no other reason to separate Butler from the bench.

 

[NOA]

The last part...

I definitely agree the trade dealine has been the biggest fiasco to date. The team needed to build or sell and we did neither...we literally did the worst thing imaginable. Perhaps the reason we didn't make moves is because the team was partially paralyzed with JW's passing, but I'm tired of excuses from the team.

I agree the team needs to have a serious overhaul at the top and perhaps a fresh new coach again with loaded up draft picks because we sell off whatever we have of value is the way to go...

But Dave Brown IMO is now singlehandedly the person responsible for the mess created over almost the last decade.

Well said

 

[NOA]

I think if they were to clear house, it would make more sense to do it in the offseason.

WRT replacing the head coach for performance related issues, it makes no sense to do it if Brown is on the hot seat. Bring in a new coach on a 3-year contract and you plan to fire the GM in the offseason? So, back to point #1, it makes more sense to clear out your hockey ops in the offseason and bring in a new team starting with the new GM that hires or at least has significant impact on the coaching hire.

This points more to something other than performance. If a coach were fired at this point in the season without the GM being on solid ground, the only thing they could do is assign an interim head coach for the remainder of the year. With this roster, doing that would be pretty much unheard of. Big risk. It also points to the lack of decisiveness of the management/ownership.

For Butler to be pulled away from the team while they do their internal review, it sounds more like the ownership wants to ensure there is a spatial buffer between Butler and the players right now. If it weren’t something that required separation, why separate him from the team? If it is an internal review for performance reasons, why make it public? Just let him coach until you fire him and find a replacement. That is what teams do all the time for mid-season firings. In other words, why would they put out a statement if it is performance based? And, if it is geared more toward Brown being fired, why separate Butler from the bench? Can he not be the GM for a weekend while coaching? Seems absurd.

This points to something non-performance based. I see no other reason to separate Butler from the bench.

Yeah it’s obvious it’s not performance reasons and I wasn’t implying that either. They would have just fired him and the statement would be such. The statement says he’s basically on admin leave pending review. You don’t do that for performance reasons but make no mistake, the performance is an issue too. But im also not going to speculate on what it is that caused the admin leave as I have zero inside knowledge on this and it’s too new

 

[OMG67]

Yeah it’s obvious it’s not performance reasons and I wasn’t implying that either. They would have just fired him and the statement would be such. The statement says he’s basically on admin leave pending review. You don’t do that for performance reasons but make no mistake, the performance is an issue too. But im also not going to speculate on what it is that caused the admin leave as I have zero inside knowledge on this and it’s too new

Agreed. The big issue is what to do with the coaching? If Brown is on the hot seat, why hire a new coach and anchor the next GM to that contract? This is sticky. The team is too good to just promote an intirim coach.

 

[OttersFan]

Butler said something racist to Ty Henry and it was captured on video.

Wes Wolfe will likely be interim.

 

[NOA]

Butler said something racist to Ty Henry and it was captured on video.

Wes Wolfe will likely be interim.

Sad if true..

And Wes Wolfe is underwhelming as an assistant so I don’t see how this goes well..

 

[frontsfan67]

Butler said something racist to Ty Henry and it was captured on video.

Wes Wolfe will likely be interim.

Here before this gets deleted

 

[OttersFan]

Sad if true..

And Wes Wolfe is underwhelming as an assistant so I don’t see how this goes well..

I’m wondering if that has something to do with why Ty’s suspension has yet to be handled with consequences.

I hope the entire video is leaked so we can see what really happened. I’m sure it won’t bit you never know.

 

[Mata]

Butler said something racist to Ty Henry and it was captured on video.

Wes Wolfe will likely be interim.

There was a very bad altercation between the two of them getting off the ice the other night, I believe the night he ultimately was tossed. I'm unsure if was on the CHL feed or not. He was yelling at Ty, Ty turned his back to walk away, Stan grabbed him by the arm started yelling again and Ty broke free and walked down the tunnel.

I don't know if it happened then I don't even know if it is the reason, but it stuck out as a moment where Stan lost control of a situation.

 

[OttersFan]

There was a very bad altercation between the two of them getting off the ice the other night, I believe the night he ultimately was tossed. I'm unsure if was on the CHL feed or not. He was yelling at Ty, Ty turned his back to walk away, Stan grabbed him by the arm started yelling again and Ty broke free and walked down the tunnel.

I don't know if it happened then I don't even know if it is the reason, but it stuck out as a moment where Stan lost control of a situation.

Someone should screen capture it and post it.

On the 11th, Spence stood at center ice with the four officials at the end of the game. I stayed behind after the game for atleast 20 mins. He had to have talked with them for atleast 15 mins. Nothing significant occurred during the game that I know of which would call for a long clarification. They talked so long that they started chuck a puck while they were still on the ice. I didn’t think anything of it, but I cannot recall a time officials made themselves available on ice for longer than clarification of a play.

I’m wondering if that’s when it was brought up the day after McDavid night. A way for him to start a line of communication with the league and out of reach from Butler.

 

[Dhockey16]

Do any of the Otters insiders have any insight on the Waters family's plans for the team? I've heard from a couple people that they have no interest in owning a hockey team - this was Jim's interest. The team needs a buyer, specifically a buyer who will keep the team in Erie.

Dave Brown has been a middling GM all things considered, with a few notable bright spots. He's been active in getting NCAA commits like Hughes and McCall to sign, which is hugely important for the future, but they haven't drafted a ton of long shot picks recently either.

What Brown is genuinely good at is running the business operation. The teams advertising deals and shoring up ticketing (no more comps) have made the team at least a semi-viable business venture, which it never was during Bassin's ownership.

Butler's potential forced removal could be a blessing in disguise. I don't even think he was a bad coach, but it's an opportunity to bring new life into the team right before playoffs. The team hung onto Hartsburg and Adams way too long, to the point where it was inexplicable other than as a move to save money.

 

[Mata]

Do any of the Otters insiders have any insight on the Waters family's plans for the team? I've heard from a couple people that they have no interest in owning a hockey team - this was Jim's interest. The team needs a buyer, specifically a buyer who will keep the team in Erie.

Dave Brown has been a middling GM all things considered, with a few notable bright spots. He's been active in getting NCAA commits like Hughes and McCall to sign, which is hugely important for the future, but they haven't drafted a ton of long shot picks recently either.

What Brown is genuinely good at is running the business operation. The teams advertising deals and shoring up ticketing (no more comps) have made the team at least a semi-viable business venture, which it never was during Bassin's ownership.

Butler's potential forced removal could be a blessing in disguise. I don't even think he was a bad coach, but it's an opportunity to bring new life into the team right before playoffs. The team hung onto Hartsburg and Adams way too long, to the point where it was inexplicable other than as a move to save money.

There is so much uncertainty surrounding what will happen. The hope is, the EIA contract with the Otters runs through 2028 or 2029 and the team will remain here until at least then, but a new buyer might be willing to relocate.

We've been STH for nearly 10 years now, I would argue that DB knows how to run the org, even from a marketing perspective. The years following 2017 saw a significant drop in attendance. 2018 and 2019 there were nights that only a single concession was open on either side. Yes attendance said 3k or 3500, but you were lucky some nights to have 500 people in the stands.

The team go a little better in 2020 and sniffed a playoff run, but then covid. The return to play saw higher numbers in 21 and 22, but most nights were barely half full. It wasn't until the tail end of 2022 when SB was hired that seats started to fill again. Last season saw our first true playoff run and stands were 2/3 full or higher and it looked up.

However, this year has produced mixed results once more. We aren't to the 2018 and 2019 lows, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors with attendance and playing mediocre this season. The McDavid night was a record followed by a huge hangover Saturday and I'd say we weren't even half full.

 

[Mata]

Someone should screen capture it and post it.

On the 11th, Spence stood at center ice with the four officials at the end of the game. I stayed behind after the game for atleast 20 mins. He had to have talked with them for atleast 15 mins. Nothing significant occurred during the game that I know of which would call for a long clarification. They talked so long that they started chuck a puck while they were still on the ice. I didn’t think anything of it, but I cannot recall a time officials made themselves available on ice for longer than clarification of a play.

I’m wondering if that’s when it was brought up the day after McDavid night. A way for him to start a line of communication with the league and out of reach from Butler.

I looked back through the game. Cameras are not on the bench and in the stands when Ty is ejected. They cut into the stands and then come back after he had left. The commentators were talking in disbelief about the ejection and you don't even get to see Ty leave the ice, unfortunately. When video resumes on the ice there is a lot of confusion that is talked about and Spence gets pretty heated while talking to the refs.

 

[Dhockey16]

There is so much uncertainty surrounding what will happen. The hope is, the EIA contract with the Otters runs through 2028 or 2029 and the team will remain here until at least then, but a new buyer might be willing to relocate.

We've been STH for nearly 10 years now, I would argue that DB knows how to run the org, even from a marketing perspective. The years following 2017 saw a significant drop in attendance. 2018 and 2019 there were nights that only a single concession was open on either side. Yes attendance said 3k or 3500, but you were lucky some nights to have 500 people in the stands.

The team go a little better in 2020 and sniffed a playoff run, but then covid. The return to play saw higher numbers in 21 and 22, but most nights were barely half full. It wasn't until the tail end of 2022 when SB was hired that seats started to fill again. Last season saw our first true playoff run and stands were 2/3 full or higher and it looked up.

However, this year has produced mixed results once more. We aren't to the 2018 and 2019 lows, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors with attendance and playing mediocre this season. The McDavid night was a record followed by a huge hangover Saturday and I'd say we weren't even half full.

I wish we had someone locally actually covering this. Maybe there's some investors from around here who would buy the team if enough attention is given to the problem. Frankly I'm not sure there's a city with an arena and without a tenant that'd be immediately more viable as a business than a team in Erie. I'm going to be so pissed if I have to watch the ECHL

 

[WestPAPuckFan]

There is so much uncertainty surrounding what will happen. The hope is, the EIA contract with the Otters runs through 2028 or 2029 and the team will remain here until at least then, but a new buyer might be willing to relocate.

We've been STH for nearly 10 years now, I would argue that DB knows how to run the org, even from a marketing perspective. The years following 2017 saw a significant drop in attendance. 2018 and 2019 there were nights that only a single concession was open on either side. Yes attendance said 3k or 3500, but you were lucky some nights to have 500 people in the stands.

The team go a little better in 2020 and sniffed a playoff run, but then covid. The return to play saw higher numbers in 21 and 22, but most nights were barely half full. It wasn't until the tail end of 2022 when SB was hired that seats started to fill again. Last season saw our first true playoff run and stands were 2/3 full or higher and it looked up.

However, this year has produced mixed results once more. We aren't to the 2018 and 2019 lows, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors with attendance and playing mediocre this season. The McDavid night was a record followed by a huge hangover Saturday and I'd say we weren't even half full.

Just would like to point out that as far as average attendance goes, we're doing pretty ok. Last year's was a similar number. Obviously far from sellouts but the only teams doing better are the usual suspects.

 

[Guy In Burlington]

There was a very bad altercation between the two of them getting off the ice the other night, I believe the night he ultimately was tossed. I'm unsure if was on the CHL feed or not. He was yelling at Ty, Ty turned his back to walk away, Stan grabbed him by the arm started yelling again and Ty broke free and walked down the tunnel.

I don't know if it happened then I don't even know if it is the reason, but it stuck out as a moment where Stan lost control of a situation.

That was Spence not Henry.

 

[EOtterstracker]

Butler said something racist to Ty Henry and it was captured on video.

Wes Wolfe will likely be interim.

I didn’t see it on the broadcast, so I’d assume it was from someone sitting near the bench. That’s disgusting from him.

 

[Mata]

View attachment 962152
Just would like to point out that as far as average attendance goes, we're doing pretty ok. Last year's was a similar number. Obviously far from sellouts but the only teams doing better are the usual suspects.

One thing those graphs do to skew numbers is all STH are counted every single game. Erie has a healthy group of STH right now. I have heard just over 1200, so those tickets are counted every single game. Unless, my information is out of date and they just count the gate scans.

 

[NOA]

One thing those graphs do to skew numbers is all STH are counted every single game. Erie has a healthy group of STH right now. I have heard just over 1200, so those tickets are counted every single game. Unless, my information is out of date and they just count the gate scans.

Yes STHs likely count but they would for probably every team too, no? And ultimately all they care about is the sale of the ticket. Yes, getting people in their seat is important but it’s secondary to the actual ticket sale

Considering the on ice product the last 7-8 years, I would argue their ticket sale numbers are pretty darn good. Outside of the usual expected top 5 or so teams, Erie seems to support their team even in down years. Close to or about half the league is worse off with attendance, often having low numbers regardless of on ice success. And there are definitely multiple teams that over the past 8 years would have attendance numbers much, much lower if they put Erie’s product out there.

I would expect the Waters family to eventually sell, if nothing else because this isn’t their passion, this isn’t what they signed up for and it’s a lot of work to oversee. Idk who would buy the team as the OHL in general, let alone this organization in this city, feels like a hobby more than a business investment

 

[Otto]

There is so much uncertainty surrounding what will happen. The hope is, the EIA contract with the Otters runs through 2028 or 2029 and the team will remain here until at least then, but a new buyer might be willing to relocate.

We've been STH for nearly 10 years now, I would argue that DB knows how to run the org, even from a marketing perspective. The years following 2017 saw a significant drop in attendance. 2018 and 2019 there were nights that only a single concession was open on either side. Yes attendance said 3k or 3500, but you were lucky some nights to have 500 people in the stands.

The team go a little better in 2020 and sniffed a playoff run, but then covid. The return to play saw higher numbers in 21 and 22, but most nights were barely half full. It wasn't until the tail end of 2022 when SB was hired that seats started to fill again. Last season saw our first true playoff run and stands were 2/3 full or higher and it looked up.

However, this year has produced mixed results once more. We aren't to the 2018 and 2019 lows, but we aren't doing ourselves any favors with attendance and playing mediocre this season. The McDavid night was a record followed by a huge hangover Saturday and I'd say we weren't even half full.

Last season Erie was 5th in the league in year over year attendance. 10.27% over 22/23

So far this season they are first 13.91% over the same # of games last season. Yes.. I get that it's tickets sold and not necessarily butts in the seats, but it's the same parameters for every team.

 

[Mata]

Yes STHs likely count but they would for probably every team too, no? And ultimately all they care about is the sale of the ticket. Yes, getting people in their seat is important but it’s secondary to the actual ticket sale

Considering the on ice product the last 7-8 years, I would argue their ticket sale numbers are pretty darn good. Outside of the usual expected top 5 or so teams, Erie seems to support their team even in down years. Close to or about half the league is worse off with attendance, often having low numbers regardless of on ice success. And there are definitely multiple teams that over the past 8 years would have attendance numbers much, much lower if they put Erie’s product out there.

I would expect the Waters family to eventually sell, if nothing else because this isn’t their passion, this isn’t what they signed up for and it’s a lot of work to oversee. Idk who would buy the team as the OHL in general, let alone this organization in this city, feels like a hobby more than a business investment

It definitely would count for every team, but I'm sure London is 5k+ STH. We will never touch them or Kitchener because our barn just isn't big enough.

Outside of STH, whom roughly pay $12 a game, they best nights are the BOGO nights. That too takes tickets to about $10 - $12 bucks a person. I guess regardless of STH base, the people you put in the stands probably account for the largest amount of money outside of maybe the store? I know most nights a family of 4 would look to spend 50 - 60 bucks on food and drink. Alcohol sales also probably contribute a decent amount as well.

The 50/50 brings in on average maybe 4k a game, not really a game changer. I think it really does come down to how many walk through the gate vs just the STH showing up every single game.

Also, around 2020 they dropped the STH prices significantly. I want to say it was around 600 or so a ticket and dropped to about 400. It went from roughly an 18 dollar average down to what it is now. A smart marketing move to try to keep the base happy.

I definitely agree Erie, even in down years per those graphs, sits in the top half of the league for attendance. That being said, the franchise is likely somewhat profitable, but you're not making a crazy living off of the team even if you roll a profit.

I would agree the team is likely sold in due time. Perhaps, and I don't know the rules, Erie Events could buy it up and promote a president or governor of the team. I think the value is there long term for us, it's just a matter of who steps up. I know some people are hoping that McDavid and family or even a few members of that era purchase the team together. That sure would be bittersweet.

 

[GetOutDaKitchin]

Having a McDavid, Strome, DeBrincat or some combination of them purchase the franchise would be incredible. The positive publicity and instant credibility - not to mention deep pockets - that'd bring would be a boon for the team and the city.

As a prospect, who wouldn't want to play for an organization owned by the best hockey player in the world?!

 

[Mata]

Having a McDavid, Strome, DeBrincat or some combination of them purchase the franchise would be incredible. The positive publicity and instant credibility - not to mention deep pockets - that'd bring would be a boon for the team and the city.

As a prospect, who wouldn't want to play for an organization owned by the best hockey player in the world?!

I only mentioned that because Zach Hyman and his family just recently purchased the Brantford Bulldogs

Why Oilers’ Zach Hyman and his family bought the OHL’s Brantford Bulldogs

Hyman and his family have officially purchased the OHL's Brantford Bulldogs from Ottawa Senators owner Michael Andlauer.

www.nytimes.com

 

[sbpointer]

There was a very bad altercation between the two of them getting off the ice the other night, I believe the night he ultimately was tossed. I'm unsure if was on the CHL feed or not. He was yelling at Ty, Ty turned his back to walk away, Stan grabbed him by the arm started yelling again and Ty broke free and walked down the tunnel.

I don't know if it happened then I don't even know if it is the reason, but it stuck out as a moment where Stan lost control of a situation.

So assuming this as fact there should be no organizational review the release should have been that the coach is relieved of his duties and you deal with the financial fallout through your legal team.
I would be firm on this for a few reasons.
1. The players are the product and it is the responsibility of the member clubs to be behind them first and foremost.
2. Number 1 not withstanding the head coach of a major junior team is a leader of young men and you can't leave any doubt that type of behavior is ok.
3. Somewhat unrelated to the specific incident in question. I would be behind the assistant as an interim HC and then the second the Otters season ends a total revamp. New GM who then will hire his/her new HC and staff.

 

[SpezzaNoLookDropPass]

Would not be surprised if any of the SB rumours are true. He’s not exactly the greatest guy in the world that’s for sure. North Bay’s entire organization changed once he was gone.
Hope this turns it around for Erie, you guys have lots of great talent. What a treat it must be to watch MS48 in person frequently