I agree with all of the above. I don’t want to jinx it. I know I will but so far they’re looking…. Decent?
Erie Otters 2022-23 Season Thread
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I wonder if you, and others have noticed that first period they skated and/or passed into the zone more than their typical dump and chase. I think it helped them keep possession and they were buzzing.
Absolutely. They actually looked like a real team. It’s almost like we’ve been saying dump and chase doesn’t work for months now. They’re listening and finally getting good results. Hopefully some of their egos were put aside and we can play like a team.
Lalonde made good saves which always helps.
Lalonde was on fire...
So we have Alfano and hopefully Molnar. I think like others have eluded to, for the first time in a long time we're going to have some serious depth. Not to mention Johnston is still not playing on the back end.
I would think when healthy our defense is:
Kyrou-Morton
Sova-Kulakov
Johnston-Sauder
Alboim
Offensively if we land Molnar and Alfano ever gets healthy: lines 1 - 3 should be pretty solid.
Spence - Terrance - Cohen
Molnar - Alfano - Bressette?
Gilmartin - Sanagiuk- Sedore?
McDonald- Smith - Artichuk
Edwards-Messier?
If line 2 keeps producing and Molnar takes longer to come over it will be harder and harder for him to crack top 6.
This is what I mean by Molnar coming late could make him 3rd line if line 2 remains consistent.
Bresette 2 points and +2
Gilmartin 3 points and +3
Saganiuk 3 points and +3
Previous game...
Bressette, Saganiuk, Gilmartin all 2 points and +8 collectively.
Also, Lalonde still above .900 in spite of 3 GAA is promising as well.
Bresette 2 points and +2
Gilmartin 3 points and +3
Saganiuk 3 points and +3
Previous game...
Bressette, Saganiuk, Gilmartin all 2 points and +8 collectively.
Also, Lalonde still above .900 in spite of 3 GAA is promising as well.
Molnar has too much upside and skill for his age to not offer him a top 6 role in order to get him here. If that’s what it takes, you do it. I think it’s fair to tell him there might be a slow adjustment and obviously he’s going to have to earn the time but overall, we still need him here long term. This isn’t about this year, it’s still about the future. I count 3-4 forwards that won’t be here next year. IMO we need him if we want to actually build something and not just continue to be this same type of team year in and out
Nice win tonight but let’s not act like the offense is rolling and the team is 7-3 that we don’t want to mess with chemistry. We could still use a real offensive talent like Molnar who over time could be a much more consistent scoring threat and most importantly offers long term value
I'm not saying Molnar won't help the team, but if line 2 continues to roll any halfway decent coach will keep the line together unless the wheels start to fall off. Perhaps they make Saganiuk, Gilmartin, Bressette the 3rd line to satisfy the "need" of Molnar to play line 2 and get him here, but right now there is no reason to break those 3 up if they keep producing as well as Spence, Cohen, and Terrance.
Perhaps we see a Molnar - Alfano - Sedore to start line 2 (assuming Alfano gets healthy and Molnar reports). Molnar will definitely get looks at PP1 and PP2 as our power play is worst in the league at present but until line 1 and 2 quit producing I suspect they keep rolling them and try to plug another hole with him.
4 points or more from this 3 in 3 should be more than adequate to keep pace with the top 5.
Why do we think they are “rolling”? Erie currently is 19th in the league in GF per game, and that includes their 6 goal performance tonight. Prior to tonight we were 20th…
Like no offense to the top 6 and it’s cute and all that they are on a two game win streak, but their biggest issue this year and really since 2017 is they lack high end skill. Who knows what Molnar would be IF he even shows. His game might not translate. He might be a stud. Probably somewhere in the middle. Either way, he has some really good tools that make him, from a talent standpoint, the 2nd or 3rd best forward? At worst maybe the 4th best? I’m not worried about “demoting” someone to the 3rd line to make room for him. Yeah sure maybe some guys in the top 6 are developing chemistry but they are still limited to creating consistent offense because they don’t have the same skillset someone like Molnar might bring. Also why can’t Molnar develop the same chemistry with linemates while also giving the top 6 more high end potential?
It’s like when guys like Kyle Pettit play in the top 6 but then Strome returns and it’s sorry Kyle, but you are going back to where you belong and that’s line 3. If this team is all about winning and wanting to get better, then they would welcome more talent coming in. As long as Molnar has the skill and brings it every day, then they can’t fault it. Plus, it’s more likely at that stage - and with Alfano healthy - Erie runs 3 lines pretty evenly or just rides the hot line for a given game
All this talk is a bit of a stretch still because there is zero hardcore evidence that he is coming. Just some rumors. But I’ll be damned if we don’t get him because we want to keep our top 6 in place and are afraid of mixing of the chemistry on one of the worst offenses in the league…
Doesn't matter how many you score if you keep putting up W's, at the end of the day a 2-1 win is just as good as a 6-1 win. If kids are skating well together you recognize it and you keep going with it. Heck, even Hartsburg saw in their 3rd year Sellan, Hoffman, and D'Amato belonged together and the line played well above their potential because of it.
Lalonde doesn't get hurt and perhaps this team is sitting at 7-3. I don't think they will be, but it's quite obvious they are starting to gel together more and more as time goes on. So yes, let's say he comes over and we are 40 games into the season sitting in 4th place in the conference, 100% no way I say, wow you're skilled you can play top 6 minutes. That is my point, the longer he holds out the longer it will take for him to crack a top 6 if we keep playing better and better, regardless of what his potential is.
Like I said, the Otters were skating well with Kyle Pettit in the top 6 in 2016-17. But when someone more talent comes in, you make adjustments because it has a chance to benefit the team long term. Erie has zero players at a PPG. You might not think that’s a big deal but that’s a problem long term. With some of you fans it’s like they generate some offense and win one damn game against a Kitchener team without maybe their most talented player and you are back on the hype train. This isn’t going to all the sudden change my mind on the team and the talent they possess. The concerns are still there
To put their overall performance into perspective, the GD for the Otters right now is on pace to be worse than last year and about the equivalent of a 26-27 win team (historically). I’m not complaining about the overall record right now but eventually you have to generate more offense to win consistently. Winning games 2-1 long term is not a great recipe in the OHL.
You are making it sound like 40 games into the season the team is going to be something like 24-14-2. Even in that scenario it’s probably happening in spite of the offense. So I would view Molnar as a trade deadline pickup for their biggest needs .. which would be huge for a team with no asssets. Or the team is sitting at around .500 and again, in that scenario it’s because their offense can’t keep pace in most games. So the organization would welcome someone to help generate that offense
I see zero circumstance where there just “isn’t room” for someone with the ceiling of Molnar. Like I said, maybe he doesn’t translate or develop here (wouldn’t be the first time we have seen that), but you MUST be willing to give him that shot and really the fans that chance to see more talent. As a fan, I don’t really go to games live anymore because the team is boring. This team still needs to look into the future and not only maintain success but also build it more than just a 30-35 win team. There are about 5 forwards minimum that won’t be part of that future here So if I am the GM, im focused on talent and youth. Molnar is that. He gets priority over 2/3 guys in their top 6 right now, sorry he does. He’s got much more upside and ability to actually make this team better than any sort of “chemistry” can do for us. Most importantly it’s short sighted to not think Molnar can’t develop chemistry with some guys too but with the added bonus that he can make them better and generate more offense both as a line and as an individual player.
All this said, I could see Dave saying “nope sorry kid, we are 17-16-1-2 and got our guys rolling! No need to come over unless you want 4th line mins. No room for ya!”
(But please, let’s not use Hartsburg as any sort of example - he never should have had 3 stiff OAs on the same line together. He clearly couldn’t see and develop talent. In many ways they did have chemistry on some of their lines over the last few years. It got them about 26 wins a year tho because zero high end skill to speak of)
To me, the middle ground in this argument is, are Gilmartin/Bressette/Saganiuk significantly more skilled than Alfano/Sedore? I'm not sure that they are. So I can see the argument for putting Molnar with Sedore/Alfano and seeing if they find chemistry, since it seems like they have two lines that are beginning to develop chemistry right now. Then you just rotate the top 3 lines evenly and give Molnar PP1 time as well. Back in 2016/17 Erie had a very clear top 6/bottom 6 dichotomy and it was obvious to put Strome on the first line, put Pettit back on the 3rd to run a pure shut down line.
But if they go that route and one of the "top 2" lines begins to slip or Molnar/Sedore/Alfano don't find chemistry, shake it up, because you do need to maximize your skilled players and Molnar will probably be the 2nd most talented forward on this roster, behind only Spence.
But if they go that route and one of the "top 2" lines begins to slip or Molnar/Sedore/Alfano don't find chemistry, shake it up, because you do need to maximize your skilled players and Molnar will probably be the 2nd most talented forward on this roster, behind only Spence.
I was being a bit hyperbolic with the Pettit example but the point for me remains in that Erie doesn’t have real talent upfront. They have a bunch of guys. Spence has amazing skill but is 16 years old. Everyone else? Meh. They can have good days and then also go 5 straight without a point.
I’m willing to shake up any “chemistry” they have right now for the reward of more success long term. Their chemistry has gotten them 19th in scoring and the worst PP. I don’t think anyone has really earned top 6 ice, with the exception of Spence who is doing a lot for his age. Outside of Terrance, their other guys are 19-20 years old and yet still are limited offensively. They are who they are and it ain’t much to get excited about.
Who knows how open and willing Molnar would be but like I’ve said multiple times now - it’s not like you just plug him into line 2 right away. You can certainly have the conversation with him that it might take a few weeks for him to get the feel for things. But if he’s going to be generating offense and has the skill/upside people are writing about - how would it be any different than Spence eventually working his way up to the top 6? If Molnar is as advertised, he will demand more ice than some of the guys we have in the top 6 currently. If not, then he’s just another a guy and we have too many of those
When you don't have a lot of high-end skill guys, you need to rely more on chemistry for offense. In their first 7 games, the Otters scored 17 goals, 2.4 per game. In the 3 in 3 last weekend plus last night's game, they have scored 14 goals, 3.5 per game. That's boosted from a good performance last night, but it still seems possible they may have found something with these top two lines.
Personally, I'd be willing to keep them together for a bit even if Molnar comes over, because maybe Molnar can elevate Sedore/Alfano into a legit scoring line plus help turn the PP around. If it's not working then switch it up.
Personally, I'd be willing to keep them together for a bit even if Molnar comes over, because maybe Molnar can elevate Sedore/Alfano into a legit scoring line plus help turn the PP around. If it's not working then switch it up.
bobber
Registered User
Otters played a great well coached game last night. They came at the Rangers with speed through the neutral zone and capitalized on their chances. If they play like that every game, they will be a handful for most teams.
I think the good old fashion way of if / when / Molnar gets here then he’s gotta play his way into a line and a role .. sure prob advertised as a top 6 and it sounds like (he’s more than capable ) but it takes time - days ,weeks ,months , practices, games etc to build chemistry ..like look at Gilmartin - compare 1st 4 games we were scratching our heads to his last 4 .. he’s now scoring and producing .. takes time
It will sort itself out -but like Mata said it’s nice to see some points and chemistry recently from Bresette , Gilmartin and Saganuik line ..
A couple wins and LaLonde back is some positives for a brief minute - let’s embrace it .. I think now would be an IDEAL time to add a talent like Molnar both for himself and for the future
Along with the change in linemates, if I recall from previous imports, many have said the change in size of rink makes a difference to adapt to.
Aside from skills, Molnar reporting builds rapport with other imports to report here. We can’t keep drafting imports and only having maybe one every few years show up. Molnar can change the narrative about Erie while getting more playing time.
If we are talking purely on the "ceiling" of players...
Sproule and Lockhart both had high ceilings, hell, throw in Swankler and Fowler and Campbell and where did they end up? Sproule killed it after being traded, Lockhart is having his best start to date, Campbell through some unfortunate reasons and also lack of development/performance was let go. Swankler and Fowler for all their talent and high ceiling were purportedly locker room cancers.
You can have a high ceiling and not develop as is an obvious flaw in recent seasons with our organization and at that point, yes you need to try new things.
40 games in, who knows where we will be but again, if we are sitting in 4th place Molnar will find a new line because it is obvious the players are playing well together. Now, if we are 40 games in and the team is 12 - 26 - 0 - 2 or we are fringe playoff then yes 100% shake things up.
First and foremost he has to commit here. All signs indicate he will and that would be step 1. The sooner they bring him in, the more likely he gets top 6. The better lines 1 and 2 perform and the longer he takes to get here, the less likely they break up lines just because he COULD be good with a high ceiling.
Why not use Hartsburg? It fits the argument perfectly showing how chemistry > a single individal and may have been one of the few things he got right while here. He had 3 players, most of whom were average, maybe even below in the case of Sellan and Hoff and they played well above their skill level because of chemistry, you can't deny that fact.
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Yeah and that scoring average will go down tonight after a 5-1 loss. Again this still isn’t about this year. We need actual young talent. That’s why I’m not sure what we were thinking with Gilmartin trade. They need young skill and they need it to develop. You guys all keep thinking Molnar can’t develop chemistry with guys too. Reality is he will probably have a higher potential to develop chemistry given his skill
Anyways, agree to disagree. Also it’s not like we even have Molnar yet so it’s getting pointless. But I’ll bet that if he shows up, he’s playing top 6 mins within a few weeks (assuming he’s not just another guy)
The problem is they aren’t consistent nor do they have the guys to be consistent. When they play well, sure they can hang with most teams but I would say that’s the same for 95% of the league…
This is more of what I'm trying to convey. You don't bring in a kid with a high ceiling and merely say, here's top 6 minutes just because. IF your current top 6 are playing in season form UNLESS something breaks down, you try to strengthen your team elsewhere. Put Sedore, Alfano, Molnar on "line 3" but play that line as line 2 and move Saganiuk, Gilmartin and Bressette back to line 3.
There is no reason if Molnar shows he doesn't get looks on our PP1/PP2, yes they are that bad.
Depending on how the team does from this point in time until Molnar reports will dictate how lines are changed. If he comes this weekend and starts practice Monday, perhaps he works his way into a top 6. I still think if line 2 is clicking the best option/route is to move our current "line 3", make them line 2 to satisfy this need to be on the 2nd line and move our 2nd line to the 3rd line. As you've stated at that point lines 1-3 need equal or as close to equal playing time as possible.
I get what you're saying about it isn't about this year, but the kids, coaches, and management don't see it that way. They are going to limp into the playoffs if possible, even if it means an 8th seed. I agree with you in that next season should be the one we go all in on, but management obviously thinks otherwise with the signing of Gilmartin, Alfano, and Downey as well as releasing Campbell, Lowe, and Signoretti.
Molnar coming over would further solidify the argument they will do all they can to just get to the playoffs. The only question remaining is, will the team perform? If London, Kitchener, and Guelph are in fact truly rebuilding playoffs are a pretty high chance IMO and they don't care if it's 4 or if it's 8.
Didn’t I point out earlier? Pretty much verbatim to what you said - that he will obviously need to develop and adjust to the league which Erie has had significant issue with for years now. The difference with Molnar to all those others you mentioned is that he’s already in his draft year and rated as a ~2nd round pick. This close to the draft, guys like Sproule had zero draft grade. Molnar has more skill and upside than pretty much everyone you mentioned (and in some cases it’s not close) but maybe with the exception of Lockhart. But even for Lockhart, his size was a clear issue.
Please don’t twist my words into saying he’s for sure going to develop. I’ve said multiple times and in almost every post “assuming he’s as advertised” and “assuming he develops”.. so like yes those things have to happen. This isnt even a conversation if it doesn’t and that has never been my point. I’ve literally said it might take time and you have to give it a few weeks but assuming he’s what you read about or plays like a 2nd round NHL pick then he’s your 2nd/3rd best forward so why the hell wouldn’t he work his way up to the top 6 on a team that lacks high end talent and needs to focus on youth/long term. That skill trumps any “chemistry” they have and it’s not even a close debate. If Molnar is as advertised then he can and will develop chemistry with most players because that’s what 2nd round NHL picks should be able to do. If not, then this isn’t a debate. But don’t confuse my words with me saying “regardless of his performance or ability, put him on the 2nd line!!” That’s never once what I said. I have said that you NEED to give him the shot though and if he shows any of that ceiling, he belongs in the top 6 and let him grow into that role.
(Sellan/Hoff played above their skill level? Idk they were just 21 years old and eventually grown men find some success much like Fellows, Pettit, Betz etc. doesn’t mean they are playing above their skill. Just means they are old in a kids league..)
I NEVER said this. At least that’s not what I’ve been trying to convey. I said you have a conversation with him that at first he’s going to need to take a few weeks to adjust but assuming that all goes well, the plan is for him to get into the top 6. That’s the conversation with him. At minimum that has to be the plan or what you convey if you want him here. But like I keep saying, he’s going to have to show it too. Of course that’s the case - he has to prove it. My whole debate has been that IF he does, then he’s a top 6 forward
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