Erie Otters 2022-23 Season Thread

[NOA]

My question is….what do you think is better for the organization right now? Start turning it around a bit, be a mid-pack or lower playoff seed or just struggle so bad out of the gate they have to do a complete reset of coaching and mgmt?

This is the million dollar question to me. Because there are major pros and cons to each

For the sake of their culture, recruitment of players, current young guys not jumping ship, fans still coming to games - they need to win some games this year. In an ideal perfect scenario but yet realistic world they are a 7th seed this year and fighting or at least believing they can reach 6th seed. However, that means keeping guys like Kyrou around and losing on important assets. Not to mention, that also means Dave/BJ are still leading the charge next year and imo that’s not good enough long term. So it’s just wasting time

If they want to be better for the long term then they need to completely suck this year, trade away guys like Kyrou and Cohen and get this rebuild right. Fire Dave/BJ and reset. It probably costs you a lot to do it but I think at this stage you have to. My biggest fear is losing guys like Spence/Terrance. These guys need to develop and we need them here, not demanding a trade. It’s becoming a drastic situation

Now if I were the owner? I’m still blowing up things this offseason. If this team finishes 8th seed even, I’m simply asking why the hell we wasted real assets on a middle line player (Gilmartin) to be the same crap team we have been without him. It doesn’t make sense. If you are a 8/9 seed but guys like Spence / Terrance get all the ice time, I can live with it. To waste that on something like Gilmartin is a huge red flag about the mindset that Dave Brown is in. He’s not approaching things realistically. BJ is not a head coach and the fact that they gave him the full duties despite doing nothing more than Hartsburg did is disgusting. Yes I know, at times he had them playing better. But that was only because the players despised Hartsburgh. It gave them a little jump but eventually that is going to wear off. Especially when you still aren’t developing properly. Their PP is wretched, their SO still involves a defender shooting first, and their faceoffs are embarrassing. They aren’t COACHING. That’s the issue. And because Dave can’t see that or didn’t see that last year with BJ is why he’s the bigger issue.

I like Jim, he’s a good guy and believes in the city. But he needs to be a bit more cutthroat. This can’t be acceptable. I’m sure he has a great relationship with Dave but the direction we are taking is concerning. In 5 years, our philosophy and product on the ice hasn’t changed. It’s been the same. You would think after 3 years you would address that. Certainly after 5 years it’s time to panic. Even if you don’t fire Dave, you need to move him elsewhere in the office and bring in a new GM to provide a new voice. Dave has become too loyal and too stubborn thinking that he can fix things rather than just admitting he’s made some mistakes and taking a new approach. A change is needed regardless of how they finish this year. Will it happen? I highly doubt it

 

[Monster66]

This is the million dollar question to me. Because there are major pros and cons to each

For the sake of their culture, recruitment of players, current young guys not jumping ship, fans still coming to games - they need to win some games this year. In an ideal perfect scenario but yet realistic world they are a 7th seed this year and fighting or at least believing they can reach 6th seed. However, that means keeping guys like Kyrou around and losing on important assets. Not to mention, that also means Dave/BJ are still leading the charge next year and imo that’s not good enough long term. So it’s just wasting time

If they want to be better for the long term then they need to completely suck this year, trade away guys like Kyrou and Cohen and get this rebuild right. Fire Dave/BJ and reset. It probably costs you a lot to do it but I think at this stage you have to. My biggest fear is losing guys like Spence/Terrance. These guys need to develop and we need them here, not demanding a trade. It’s becoming a drastic situation

Now if I were the owner? I’m still blowing up things this offseason. If this team finishes 8th seed even, I’m simply asking why the hell we wasted real assets on a middle line player (Gilmartin) to be the same crap team we have been without him. It doesn’t make sense. If you are a 8/9 seed but guys like Spence / Terrance get all the ice time, I can live with it. To waste that on something like Gilmartin is a huge red flag about the mindset that Dave Brown is in. He’s not approaching things realistically. BJ is not a head coach and the fact that they gave him the full duties despite doing nothing more than Hartsburg did is disgusting. Yes I know, at times he had them playing better. But that was only because the players despised Hartsburgh. It gave them a little jump but eventually that is going to wear off. Especially when you still aren’t developing properly. Their PP is wretched, their SO still involves a defender shooting first, and their faceoffs are embarrassing. They aren’t COACHING. That’s the issue. And because Dave can’t see that or didn’t see that last year with BJ is why he’s the bigger issue.

I like Jim, he’s a good guy and believes in the city. But he needs to be a bit more cutthroat. This can’t be acceptable. I’m sure he has a great relationship with Dave but the direction we are taking is concerning. In 5 years, our philosophy and product on the ice hasn’t changed. It’s been the same. You would think after 3 years you would address that. Certainly after 5 years it’s time to panic. Even if you don’t fire Dave, you need to move him elsewhere in the office and bring in a new GM to provide a new voice. Dave has become too loyal and too stubborn thinking that he can fix things rather than just admitting he’s made some mistakes and taking a new approach. A change is needed regardless of how they finish this year. Will it happen? I highly doubt it

I agree with what is being said. However, the Otters are in a tough division but 4 of the teams haven't won a game yet. They currently sit in second spot and the coach and GM are probably feeling like they should have 3 wins and the eye test might confirm that. I think they need to get a win here soon and hopefully tonight against a less than average London team and go from there. Loss tonight and I think it's time to reevaluate things immediately. North Bay needs a 19 year defensemen and they have lots of good young assets. Send Sova to NB for picks and a roster player. Someone than can help this team score.

 

[NOA]

I agree with what is being said. However, the Otters are in a tough division but 4 of the teams haven't won a game yet. They currently sit in second spot and the coach and GM are probably feeling like they should have 3 wins and the eye test might confirm that. I think they need to get a win here soon and hopefully tonight against a less than average London team and go from there. Loss tonight and I think it's time to reevaluate things immediately. North Bay needs a 19 year defensemen and they have lots of good young assets. Send Sova to NB for picks and a roster player. Someone than can help this team score.

While I don’t necessarily disagree, I think that mindset is too much in a vacuum. If you hid the logo of the team, you might say yes they should have 1/2 wins so far based on performance. But this isn’t new. In 2019-20, they lost 11 games in extra time. I don’t remember if it was that year or the year prior where they lost a lot of 1 goal games on top of that, but pretty sure it was the same season. That team probably could have had 4-6 more wins and that’s a conservative number. Last year they blew a lot of early leads and never played well with a lead. So this is a trend. They don’t know how to win and they find ways to lose. Yes they should be like 2-2 but they can’t get over the hump. I personally think these kids have no belief and too much losing over this timeframe will do that … bad mindset and culture

 

[Monster66]

While I don’t necessarily disagree, I think that mindset is too much in a vacuum. If you hid the logo of the team, you might say yes they should have 1/2 wins so far based on performance. But this isn’t new. In 2019-20, they lost 11 games in extra time. I don’t remember if it was that year or the year prior where they lost a lot of 1 goal games on top of that, but pretty sure it was the same season. That team probably could have had 4-6 more wins and that’s a conservative number. Last year they blew a lot of early leads and never played well with a lead. So this is a trend. They don’t know how to win and they find ways to lose. Yes they should be like 2-2 but they can’t get over the hump. I personally think these kids have no belief and too much losing over this timeframe will do that … bad mindset and culture

Well stated. Winning is a culture and so is losing. Looking at this team from a far it certainly seems they expect to lose and that mindset starts with the leaders of the team and foremost, the coach and GM.

 

[Mata]

I know. I was mostly making a joke there but it is true. I know Flint hasn’t looked all that great despite being 2-1. Sarnia looked good for two then….ouch. Kitch, London, Guelph all winless. Saginaw looks like the can score but can’t stop anybody either. I have faith in Lalonde having a really strong season. I like the foundation of your D core. My question is….what do you think is better for the organization right now? Start turning it around a bit, be a mid-pack or lower playoff seed or just struggle so bad out of the gate they have to do a complete reset of coaching and mgmt?

Honestly, at this point top down re-org. Will it be painful, yes but the hangover from the McDavid Era still looms and its because they can't let it go! Was it special? No doubt! Will it be duplicated, likely not. It isn't like Knoblauch is the focal point of our staff, he left. We tried with his support staff, it isn't working. We need fresh new ideas and it starts with relieving DB of his duties.

 

[NOA]

Honestly, at this point top down re-org. Will it be painful, yes but the hangover from the McDavid Era still looms and its because they can't let it go! Was it special? No doubt! Will it be duplicated, likely not. It isn't like Knoblauch is the focal point of our staff, he left. We tried with his support staff, it isn't working. We need fresh new ideas and it starts with relieving DB of his duties.

I know a lot of people obsess about McDavid and all the talent Erie had from 2014-2017, but don’t forget they developed guys too. A large chunk of that was Knoblauch. Rookies were always making an impact despite limited play time. 2nd year guys made huge leaps. They were structured. Knoblauch is a huge reason why they had success. If he never left, this entire program is different without a doubt. Now obviously he left because he was good but the trick is to replace him with another good coach. I felt at the time that Hartsburg was a good hire. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I don’t hate the decision to hire him necessarily. Imo they just held on too long. He should have been gone after the 2019-20 season. And then they should have hired a full new staff from the outside. Things are just too stale and that’s on Brown. But ultimately who pays the bills? Waters. He is becoming a bit like Bassin here with the inability to adjust or make the right decisions. An owner can’t be too involved but they certainly have to know when to get involved and see a change is needed

 

[NOA]

Get ready for another long year with just enough wins to keep the staff around but plenty of losses to frustrate the fans.

At least Lalonde is good

 

[OttersFan]

I honestly don’t have a true analysis of the game. I will probably rewatch parts of it tomorrow. We just looked like we normally do. Our PP is still awful, but hey water is wet so it’s nothing new. We just were meh but atleast the meh got us two points from a subpar London team.

Johnson was a player I thought didn’t have a great game other than his fight. Lalonde was good.

They actually had a good first intermission demonstration which was neat, but that’s unimportant.

 

[Mata]

I know a lot of people obsess about McDavid and all the talent Erie had from 2014-2017, but don’t forget they developed guys too. A large chunk of that was Knoblauch. Rookies were always making an impact despite limited play time. 2nd year guys made huge leaps. They were structured. Knoblauch is a huge reason why they had success. If he never left, this entire program is different without a doubt. Now obviously he left because he was good but the trick is to replace him with another good coach. I felt at the time that Hartsburg was a good hire. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I don’t hate the decision to hire him necessarily. Imo they just held on too long. He should have been gone after the 2019-20 season. And then they should have hired a full new staff from the outside. Things are just too stale and that’s on Brown. But ultimately who pays the bills? Waters. He is becoming a bit like Bassin here with the inability to adjust or make the right decisions. An owner can’t be too involved but they certainly have to know when to get involved and see a change is needed

I watched Hartsburg play up at Erie Bank for several charity events and such and I will say this...

The dude is wicked smart with his play. It looks like he's walking while everyone else is running and he's making them look silly. However, that doesn't automatically translate into good coaching. Perhaps there is a disconnect when it comes to his ideas and his knowledge/vision that Knoblauch was able to draw upon? I'm not really sure. One thing is for certain, his poise and confidence on the ice is completely different than his time behind the bench as a HC.

 

[Petes]

Thanks again for Lockhart!

 

[Mata]

Thanks again for Lockhart! View attachment 591920

Did you thank us for Sproule last season too? Right now you can say you have your cake and you're eating it too hahaha!

Glad to see he hopefully gets to his ceiling. Just wish it was here...

 

[NOA]

Did you thank us for Sproule last season too? Right now you can say you have your cake and you're eating it too hahaha!

Glad to see he hopefully gets to his ceiling. Just wish it was here...

This is a horrible look for Erie. It’s going to lead to other guys like Terrance wanting out. Our guys don’t develop here. It’s that simple. Zero offensive production but go elsewhere and you’ll reach your potential. Super frustrating and sad to see.

 

[NOA]

I’m getting really annoyed at how much Erie has embraced Sweet Caroline. To play that song multiple times last night and to advertise/sell shirts with the phrase on it is cheap and petty. Something a beer league team does or Barstool does. I’m all for good fun with it and playing it once per game while also naming your dog Caroline. No issues really with that. But beyond that, especially to the level they pumped it up yesterday, is weird. Selling shirts now? Their social media person is weirdly engaging with London fans on Twitter about it? It’s just lame and they have now gone way too far with it. To the point that I wish the league would intervene and tell them to chill out. It’s one thing to just play the song once a game and not acknowledge it further. It’s another to market it and basically have a Sweet Caroline promo home opener. It’s been 5 years since it made the debut.. it’s time to move on. The fans won’t stop so the only way to end it is to just stop playing the songs. Instead the team has gone in the opposite direction and embraced the song more than they have winning or signing imports. I struggle to find the words to describe it other than cringe, cheap, and embarrassing to go that far. Especially when you consider our own organization right now is trash with nobody developing. Maybe it plays better in PBO and I excuse it since at least they are letting Lockhart develop. This franchise right now reeks beyond even the ice product.

 

[EON]

I have some thoughts to get out now about this organization, where it's been, where it's at, and where it's headed. This is probably going to be a long post but I'll try to keep it organized.

First and foremost, I do want to acknowledge and stay self-aware about the position I am in relative to the management of this team. It is easy for me to sit behind my keyboard and criticize the team and the mistakes I feel they've made. It is not my job on the line and I am certain it is a difficult job. I don't think I could do any better in their position either.

That being said, I also think ownership and management needs to have some respect for the fans as well. At the end of the day, this is entertainment and a business, and I feel the product on the ice has suffered massively. Fans are spending their hard earned money and investing a lot of time and emotional energy into the team. Being someone who was born and raised in Erie, the Otters meant a lot to me growing up. One of my fondest memories from my childhood is my grandpa taking me to Game 1 of the WCF in 2002 against Windsor with that OT winner. I sunk a lot of time and energy into supporting the team through the hard times in the late 2000s and early 2010s. When McDavid arrived and the team finally began to turn around, it felt so vindicating and exciting. When they finally won a title in 2017 in what was their last chance to do so, it was like a huge weight off everyone's shoulders and it was awesome to see the players rewarded for their hard work and talent. Where the team is right now is so disheartening and it's really hard to stay engaged. Everytime I come home to visit family I would always try and get us to go to an Otters game together, now I'm not so sure I am going to put the effort in to do or spend the money on it.

In my view, this organization is likely going to need to completely clean house after this season. There have been so many mis-steps, poor decisions, and a complete lack of direction from management. Hartsburg was a terrible hire and they hung on to him far too long. BJ Adams looks to be more of the same, just a better personality. The drafting has been very hit or miss, the trading has been poor, the philosophy has been flawed (they went way too all in on small and skilled guys, and are now panicking and over correcting), and the imports have been comically mismanaged. The development of players has been downright bad recently. It is so obvious this team environment is stifling talent and creativity. It's probably good that the pandemic happened for Drysdale and he was able to escape Erie. Sproule struggled here for years, gets traded, immediately fulfills his potential. Lockhart struggles, gets traded, he immediately looks like a top line player. Late round picks are not developing as well as they used to. I honestly think that this organization just got incredibly lucky to land McDavid and Knoblauch when they did. If not for those two, this team could very well have just stayed in the cellar for years then moved back to Ontario when fan support dried up.

I am sad, disappointed, and frustrated with this team. I want to support them, cheer for them, and cheer for these players. The team is completely stuck in the mud since 2017 and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon. I hope Waters cleans house this off-season and we see this franchise return to what it can be.

 

[OHLoutsider2020]

I have some thoughts to get out now about this organization, where it's been, where it's at, and where it's headed. This is probably going to be a long post but I'll try to keep it organized.

First and foremost, I do want to acknowledge and stay self-aware about the position I am in relative to the management of this team. It is easy for me to sit behind my keyboard and criticize the team and the mistakes I feel they've made. It is not my job on the line and I am certain it is a difficult job. I don't think I could do any better in their position either.

That being said, I also think ownership and management needs to have some respect for the fans as well. At the end of the day, this is entertainment and a business, and I feel the product on the ice has suffered massively. Fans are spending their hard earned money and investing a lot of time and emotional energy into the team. Being someone who was born and raised in Erie, the Otters meant a lot to me growing up. One of my fondest memories from my childhood is my grandpa taking me to Game 1 of the WCF in 2002 against Windsor with that OT winner. I sunk a lot of time and energy into supporting the team through the hard times in the late 2000s and early 2010s. When McDavid arrived and the team finally began to turn around, it felt so vindicating and exciting. When they finally won a title in 2017 in what was their last chance to do so, it was like a huge weight off everyone's shoulders and it was awesome to see the players rewarded for their hard work and talent. Where the team is right now is so disheartening and it's really hard to stay engaged. Everytime I come home to visit family I would always try and get us to go to an Otters game together, now I'm not so sure I am going to put the effort in to do or spend the money on it.

In my view, this organization is likely going to need to completely clean house after this season. There have been so many mis-steps, poor decisions, and a complete lack of direction from management. Hartsburg was a terrible hire and they hung on to him far too long. BJ Adams looks to be more of the same, just a better personality. The drafting has been very hit or miss, the trading has been poor, the philosophy has been flawed (they went way too all in on small and skilled guys, and are now panicking and over correcting), and the imports have been comically mismanaged. The development of players has been downright bad recently. It is so obvious this team environment is stifling talent and creativity. It's probably good that the pandemic happened for Drysdale and he was able to escape Erie. Sproule struggled here for years, gets traded, immediately fulfills his potential. Lockhart struggles, gets traded, he immediately looks like a top line player. Late round picks are not developing as well as they used to. I honestly think that this organization just got incredibly lucky to land McDavid and Knoblauch when they did. If not for those two, this team could very well have just stayed in the cellar for years then moved back to Ontario when fan support dried up.

I am sad, disappointed, and frustrated with this team. I want to support them, cheer for them, and cheer for these players. The team is completely stuck in the mud since 2017 and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon. I hope Waters cleans house this off-season and we see this franchise return to what it can be.

Shake up the lineup. Kids in the stands who have shown well in the past have zero games played this season. Kids should be held accountable. Many players have done nothing over the first five games. Maybe they should take a turn in the press box.

 

[Mata]

Shake up the lineup. Kids in the stands who have shown well in the past have zero games played this season. Kids should be held accountable. Many players have done nothing over the first five games. Maybe they should take a turn in the press box.

I agree at this level it's about performance, but I think the larger picture is that's only a bandaid and the org has been hemorrhaging for years.

I feel awful for the kids who obviously have the most to lose, but changing lineups doesn't equate to helping them obtain their true potential. That has seriously been lacking and with each passing season becomes more and more evident. New faces (players) and the same results.

I think NOA hits the nail on the head when he said Sproule leaving and thriving...ok...Lockhart leaving and off to a red hot start, concerning. I want the kids to do well and don't want them to fail but there is a pattern emerging here. We can try to bury it if we want to turn a blind eye, but swapping out a few players here or there it seems won't make much of a difference and thus leadership changes have now been called into question.

 

[OttersFan]

Anyone know anything about Lalonde? Looks like Nicholls and Gibbons tonight.

 

[Mata]

Anyone know anything about Lalonde? Looks like Nicholls and Gibbons tonight.

Alfano is missing as well. I see Artichuk is dressed.

 

[7D442]

Gilmartin to 2nd line

hopefully this isn’t another Jacob Golden ..ie overpaying London Shysters for a supposed NHL draft pick who doesn’t produce ..

 

[NOA]

Gilmartin to 2nd line

hopefully this isn’t another Jacob Golden ..ie overpaying London Shysters for a supposed NHL draft pick who doesn’t produce ..

It is. Way overpay for Brown for a guy who is just another guy on a team full of guys. Horrible trade

 

[Mata]

Anyone know of they keep a TOI for the OHL? It seems BJ is resorting to Hartsburg tactics already and not playing his full 4 lines consistently, already.

 

[OttersFan]

Wow our defense… is terrible?

The more I focus on Kyrou the more I see him as mediocre maybe overrated?

 

[NOA]

Wow our defense… is terrible?

The more I focus on Kyrou the more I see him as mediocre maybe overrated?

Good thing we have a defensive head coach!!! Really working out for us! Our offense and defense sucks. What a combo. Seriously, what does BJ offer if he can’t have a vet defense be a consistent, reliable backbone

 

[Mata]

Also, Nicholls needs pulled

 

[OttersFan]

Good thing we have a defensive head coach!!! Really working out for us! Our offense and defense sucks. What a combo. Seriously, what does BJ offer if he can’t have a vet defense be a consistent, reliable backbone

You forgot to mention the lack of goalies other than Nolan.

Good thing our captain is on defense and hasn’t done much the help the back end get better.

We look flat.