Erie Otters 2022-23 Off-Season Thread (Part 2)

[dirty12]

I'm not saying Royston is bad, but he was playing on a line with Owen Griffen, the top player in the ETA and a big point producer. So Royston isn't terrible, but his stats definetly got bumped up playing with Griffen. Again, it is a big reach considering who was still on the board. For example, Will McFadden, Jacob Cloutier, and Tanner Lam were picked shortly after him, and I get if you want size but there were players like Ethan Weir, Jimmy Lombardi, and Parker Snelgrove picked shortly after him aswell. I think Royston has a ton of potential, but there were definetly safer bets than him.

This is likely true if strictly selecting BPA. But Erie expects to contend 2024-25, right? I think, all things being relatively equal, you have to go with the best fit for the team plus most ready to compete 2-way player at 17. McFadden could be a star at 18-19, but maybe not at all a good fit for the 3rd line at 17.

 

[Mata]

This is likely true if strictly selecting BPA. But Erie expects to contend 2024-25, right? I think, all things being relatively equal, you have to go with the best fit for the team plus most ready to compete 2-way player at 17. McFadden could be a star at 18-19, but maybe not at all a good fit for the 3rd line at 17.

My biggest concern right now is: What direction is our team going?

My concern with Royston still remains the same.
We have a majority of very shifty East/West and not just North/South players in Spence, Terrance, Saganiuk, Artichuk, Fimis, Molnar, Bressette. Add in Sova, Daviault, Schaefer on defense.

SB wants to get bigger, but how are big players like Alfano and now Royston going to start to make the roster, assumed.

Where does this leave our team as we in a sense are drafting 2 completely different playstyles now.

 

[dirty12]

My biggest concern right now is: What direction is our team going?

My concern with Royston still remains the same.
We have a majority of very shifty East/West and not just North/South players in Spence, Terrance, Saganiuk, Artichuk, Fimis, Molnar, Bressette. Add in Sova, Daviault, Schaefer on defense.

SB wants to get bigger, but how are big players like Alfano and now Royston going to start to make the roster, assumed.

Where does this leave our team as we in a sense are drafting 2 completely different playstyles now.

How many Bresette, Sagniuk, Artichuk and zero shut down D types can a team have and win in round 2?

 

[Mata]

How many Bresette, Sagniuk, Artichuk and zero shut down D types can a team have and win in round 2?

Alfano and Royston don't play defense...

We have two types of lines developing.

The shifty guys and then we're picking up more offensive guys who are just North/South. It will be an interesting dynamic is what I'm referring to.

Defensively we know he loves big body defenders. We already have the puck moving ones, but if Royston is behind in development, similar to it taking Alfano longer to adjust then where does he fit in?

 

[dirty12]

Alfano and Royston don't play defense...

We have two types of lines developing.

The shifty guys and then we're picking up more offensive guys who are just North/South. It will be an interesting dynamic is what I'm referring to.

Defensively we know he loves big body defenders. We already have the puck moving ones, but if Royston is behind in development, similar to it taking Alfano longer to adjust then where does he fit in?

I really can’t offer any insight to development time for a prospect I’ve never seen, but I’m quite certain Erie has to be considerably bigger by the end of the 2024-25 trade deadline than the start of last season if serious about competing in the playoffs.

 

[NOA]

I really can’t offer any insight to development time for a prospect I’ve never seen, but I’m quite certain Erie has to be considerably bigger by the end of the 2024-25 trade deadline than the start of last season if serious about competing in the playoffs.

Yeah it’s a moot point right now. Bressette/Saganiuk are gone by 2024-25. Artichuk and Edwards are barely OHL players right now and not worth talking about . They don’t have much of any other small players outside of that. So just let the size thing play itself out.. it’s not really worth talking about anymore. London is probably going to the finals, might win the whole thing, and their FWD group is literally smaller than what Erie will have. Erie didn’t lose because of size, they lost because a lack of coaching, development , talent, commitment, culture, and attitude. That’s their issue. Size is secondary to all the other issues they have. Fill the teams with a bunch of Kyle Pettit and Nick Betz players and they won’t be good either.

There is nothing wrong with blending a little bit of different styles within your team. You can’t only build with one type of player. Now, can the players adapt their style to an outdated and imo now ineffective play style that SB teaches? We will see. But if they are only going to build around a bunch of big players like Royston, Alfano, etc, they will never go far anyways. You need to blend in skill and speed.

 

[Mata]

Yeah it’s a moot point right now. Bressette/Saganiuk are gone by 2024-25. Artichuk and Edwards are barely OHL players right now and not worth talking about . They don’t have much of any other small players outside of that. So just let the size thing play itself out.. it’s not really worth talking about anymore. London is probably going to the finals, might win the whole thing, and their FWD group is literally smaller than what Erie will have. Erie didn’t lose because of size, they lost because a lack of coaching, development , talent, commitment, culture, and attitude. That’s their issue. Size is secondary to all the other issues they have. Fill the teams with a bunch of Kyle Pettit and Nick Betz players and they won’t be good either.

There is nothing wrong with blending a little bit of different styles within your team. You can’t only build with one type of player. Now, can the players adapt their style to an outdated and imo now ineffective play style that SB teaches? We will see. But if they are only going to build around a bunch of big players like Royston, Alfano, etc, they will never go far anyways. You need to blend in skill and speed.

The last sentence is what I was trying to get across, so thank you.

Right now our north/south ONLY players are limited. Most of our skaters, regardless of size, are pretty dynamic. Alfano being an exception to that. He's most north/south and now that is kind of where Royston fits in as a north/south skater.

I'll admit, I haven't watched a lot of SB philosophy, but drafting Schaefer as a puck moving defender leads me to believe he has adapted, at least some, over the years. You don't coach as long as he has without adapting at least somewhat to the changing play.

 

[NOA]

The last sentence is what I was trying to get across, so thank you.

Right now our north/south ONLY players are limited. Most of our skaters, regardless of size, are pretty dynamic. Alfano being an exception to that. He's most north/south and now that is kind of where Royston fits in as a north/south skater.

I'll admit, I haven't watched a lot of SB philosophy, but drafting Schaefer as a puck moving defender leads me to believe he has adapted, at least some, over the years. You don't coach as long as he has without adapting at least somewhat to the changing play.

One would hope he has adapted a little bit. Ultimately it’s up to the players to buy in either way. I could see this team surprising and winning 40 games, I could see them tap out at 31-32 games, and I could see them win 25 games again. It’s up to the players and the work they put in

 

[dirty12]

Yeah it’s a moot point right now. Bressette/Saganiuk are gone by 2024-25. Artichuk and Edwards are barely OHL players right now and not worth talking about . They don’t have much of any other small players outside of that. So just let the size thing play itself out.. it’s not really worth talking about anymore. London is probably going to the finals, might win the whole thing, and their FWD group is literally smaller than what Erie will have. Erie didn’t lose because of size, they lost because a lack of coaching, development , talent, commitment, culture, and attitude. That’s their issue. Size is secondary to all the other issues they have. Fill the teams with a bunch of Kyle Pettit and Nick Betz players and they won’t be good either.

There is nothing wrong with blending a little bit of different styles within your team. You can’t only build with one type of player. Now, can the players adapt their style to an outdated and imo now ineffective play style that SB teaches? We will see. But if they are only going to build around a bunch of big players like Royston, Alfano, etc, they will never go far anyways. You need to blend in skill and speed.

Erie does have 1.5 years to be ready for the 2024-25 playoffs. But size & strength will matter deep in the playoffs.

Barrie & NB were top 3 teams imo league wide using so-called outdated philosophies and playing styles.
London, Ottawa & Peterborough are the most defensive oriented teams in the league.
Sarnia is a BIG team.

 

[7D442]

Whelp SB has had time to see what we have and where we Need to be from his short 1/2 season stint ..on to a full year next season ..

All of these draft pics and predicted studs on this team need to produce “now “ NO BS - no excuses .. bressette is a stud and will be healthy - unfortunate injury to Cohen and Sedore didn’t do jack last year ..these 3 examples alone should be plus 50 vs last year just from a goal scoring standpoint w /o injuries etc ..

Step up young bucks and do something - !! you have all the tools , talent / organization, new to Erie experienced coach (which that alone isn’t debatable anymore …) Eries a big hockey town w great fan support ..

Spence and Mess - step up .. 1-2 of the 9 tenders we have - for the love of God - step up .. im not liking the potential excuses being tossed around already for SB as coach again ..Players need to be accountable for 23/24

 

[NOA]

Erie does have 1.5 years to be ready for the 2024-25 playoffs. But size & strength will matter deep in the playoffs.

Barrie & NB were top 3 teams imo league wide using so-called outdated philosophies and playing styles.
London, Ottawa & Peterborough are the most defensive oriented teams in the league.
Sarnia is a BIG team.

Yes and that size often comes with age, naturally. I just don’t need a lecture on size again. I’m good. I think the conversation has become too much here and become some sort of scapegoat for the team, not necessarily by you but by a lot of fans.

 

[Mata]

Yes and that size often comes with age, naturally. I just don’t need a lecture on size again. I’m good. I think the conversation has become too much here and become some sort of scapegoat for the team, not necessarily by you but by a lot of fans.

If talk about size is too much, the door is always open to not post here and go somewhere, but here you are engaging in talk that doesn't appeal to you.

The philosophy Erie has employed since 2017 is more broken than SB's formula of go big. Just look at the record. We probably would have done better by drafting large players instead of all small because simply put, our team was thrown around, alot. All the skill in the world wasn't going to make up for the drafting disaster that DB has done and couple that with piss poor development from a coaching staff, double whammy.

 

[NOA]

If talk about size is too much, the door is always open to not post here and go somewhere, but here you are engaging in talk that doesn't appeal to you.

The philosophy Erie has employed since 2017 is more broken than SB's formula of go big. Just look at the record. We probably would have done better by drafting large players instead of all small because simply put, our team was thrown around, alot. All the skill in the world wasn't going to make up for the drafting disaster that DB has done and couple that with piss poor development from a coaching staff, double whammy.

They wouldn’t have done any better with bigger players when their coaches sucked and their talent was lacking and under developed. Again, look at LDN. Not a lot of huge guys in their top 6 and they are on their way to the finals. Hate to burst the bubble but size is overrated. It’s only exposed when your smaller guys can’t play and your coaches can’t coach.

 

[Mata]

Average Height and Weight of Hockey Players (NHL 2024)

I've been a collegiate sports performance coach for 20 years. One thing I always felt was effective was showing guys the heights and weights of players at their positions in the pros. It helped give

hortonbarbell.com

The NHL says otherwise...

That's not to say there aren't people who are very successful and shorter in height, but there aren't very many on rosters.

And who says they wouldn't have done any better? That's pure SPECULATION.

 

[NOA]

Average Height and Weight of Hockey Players (NHL 2024)

I've been a collegiate sports performance coach for 20 years. One thing I always felt was effective was showing guys the heights and weights of players at their positions in the pros. It helped give

hortonbarbell.com

The NHL says otherwise...

That's not to say there aren't people who are very successful and shorter in height, but there aren't very many on rosters.

And who says they wouldn't have done any better? That's pure SPECULATION.

So now we are comparing OHL to NHL? Come on man… you are smarter than that. I never said size was not a factor, all I am saying is it’s not at the top of the list for Erie’s issues. Sorry, it isn’t. They don’t have coaching, they don’t have talent, and their culture or attitude is lacking. Regardless of size, those are issues that will never allow you to win games. I mean damn Erie had size in the 2000s but sucked for the same reasons - horrible coaching and talent.

 

[Mata]

With regards to London, two kids under 5'10 and most OHL players are still growing. Super small for sure!

So now we are comparing OHL to NHL? Come on man… you are smarter than that. I never said size was not a factor, all I am saying is it’s not at the top of the list for Erie’s issues. Sorry, it isn’t. They don’t have coaching, they don’t have talent, and their culture or attitude is lacking. Regardless of size, those are issues that will never allow you to win games. I mean damn Erie had size in the 2000s but sucked for the same reasons - horrible coaching and talent.

Good call Dave Brown...

 

[Mata]

Erie's issues:

Coaching leading to lack of development
A small roster
Bad GM

There are the top 3

 

[NOA]

With regards to London, two kids under 5'10 and most as most OHL players are still growing. Super small for sure!


Good call Dave Brown...

Never said Erie was big, never said size wasn’t an issue. Again, here comes the twist of my words. My original point was size is not an issue going forward like as in why is it still brought up to project the team going into next year???? and this past year it was not their primary issue but it’s talked about like an excuse for the losing

LDN has 5 FWD at 5’11 or below in their top 6. Erie this past year had 7 overall forwards at 5’11 or below but only 4 saw top 6 ice and 1 of those 4 missed half the year. Yeah LDN was a bit bigger upfront OK COOL YA GOT ME!!! NICE ONE!! But
big enough to be a team that is on the way to the finals/likely winning it all compared to Erie the 2nd worst team in the entire league? That size difference was THAT big of a gap? Or maybe it was the coaching and talent? Hmmm. I wonder.

Going into next year, at most, Erie will have 6 forwards at 5’11 and below. That number is likely closer to 4/5 though because no chance both Edwards/Artichuk are still here unless both see improvements to justify top 9 mins (doubtful). Saganiuk also a trade candiate. Not to mention the possibility that someone could still grow and get to 6’0. So yeah I think my original point stands that size going forward is not an issue

 

[Mata]

2018/19- 4 forwards under 5'10 9th
2019/20 -5 forwards under 5'10 8th (covid)
2020/21 - canceled
2021/22 - 6 forwards under 5'10 9th
2022/23 - 5 forwards under 5'10 10th

But size doesn't matter...obviously it does play a part in crappy finishes.

 

[NOA]

Never said Erie was big, never said size wasn’t an issue. Again, here comes the twist of my words. My original point was size is not an issue going forward like as in why is it still brought up to project the team going into next year???? and this past year it was not their primary issue but it’s talked about like an excuse for the losing

At least i prediction the twist of my words would occur.. holy crap

 

[dirty12]

Never said Erie was big, never said size wasn’t an issue. Again, here comes the twist of my words. My original point was size is not an issue going forward like as in why is it still brought up to project the team going into next year???? and this past year it was not their primary issue but it’s talked about like an excuse for the losing

LDN has 5 FWD at 5’11 or below in their top 6. Erie this past year had 7 overall forwards at 5’11 or below but only 4 saw top 6 ice and 1 of those 4 missed half the year. Yeah LDN was a bit bigger upfront OK COOL YA GOT ME!!! NICE ONE!! But
big enough to be a team that is on the way to the finals/likely winning it all compared to Erie the 2nd worst team in the entire league? That size difference was THAT big of a gap? Or maybe it was the coaching and talent? Hmmm. I wonder.

Going into next year, at most, Erie will have 6 forwards at 5’11 and below. That number is likely closer to 4/5 though because no chance both Edwards/Artichuk are still here unless both see improvements to justify top 9 mins (doubtful). Saganiuk also a trade candiate. Not to mention the possibility that someone could still grow and get to 6’0. So yeah I think my original point stands that size going forward is not an issue

Going forward size might not be an issue thanks to some trades and a shift in types drafted. But Erie was the smallest team in the league without being the most talented. Size was definitely an issue.

 

[NOA]

Going forward size might not be an issue thanks to some trades and a shift in types drafted. But Erie was the smallest team in the league without being the most talented. Size was definitely an issue.

AGAIN, I NEVER SAID IT WASNT AN ISSUE.

I mean can you all read? Seriously …

If they had Debrincat and Maksimovich on the roster they would have won more games. It’s not solely a size thing. Their talent isn’t good enough and their coaching sucked. Doesn’t matter if those guys were big - they weren’t good. I can find many examples of teams that won more games with a smaller squad (2018 Kitchener for example) and many examples of teams with size that lost a lot of games (see Erie in the 2000s).

Please stop misinterpreting my posts

 

[OHL4Life]

all i know is that there was a specific focus on the team getting bigger this draft, i have found that size was an issue with the otters, but bigger issue was smaller guys with low skill and work ethic. player identifcation.

 

[NOA]

all i know is that there was a specific focus on the team getting bigger this draft, i have found that size was an issue with the otters, but bigger issue was smaller guys with low skill and work ethic. player identifcation.

Exactly my point. I’ve said for about 2 years now that they need to get bigger. Never once said it wasn’t an issue. I was one of the first to start ranting my concerns and said last offseason that they needed to get down to a lower number of players that were 5’10 or below but that it would take 2 years to reverse the trend because you can’t just release all your players or trade them for big bodies. And here we are a full offseason later and they pretty much, slowly but surely, have started to get bigger and by 2024-25, it won’t be an issue. Exactly how I mapped it. It might not even be an issue next year depending on Saganiuk, Artichuk, Edwards status.

But the bottom line is you still don’t have talent. If you had the same size but swapped T. Raddysh for Alfano, McKegg for Terrance, and Burakovsky for Molnar - you win more games last year because you have more talent, more high end talent. Their primary issue is they have lacked high end talent and when they had their most high end talent during the rebuild (2019-20) they were a middle of the pack team despite still being small. If Terrance/Spence and a few others step up, they will win more. If they don’t develop, they will still lose next year regardless of their size

 

[7D442]

I like our 1st rnd pick - can’t help but wonder do we have enough firepower up front though ??