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Epic Calder Race 2024-25

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wetcoast said:
Sure but then again how many of the voters look at which analytic numbers?

Sure on the surface a regular forward at a .93 PPG compared to dman at .75 means something but most rookie forwards, in fact I'm trying to remember the last one that is recent maybe Toews/Kopitar, don't have that 200 foot game either.

I also think that some voters are going to look at Celebrini having 20 ESP points compared to Hutson's 17 as an advantage for Celebrini.


No you're jumping the gun read the post above the one you made.

Post #1259
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1259? Cant read the future bro.
 
wetcoast said:
Sure but then again how many of the voters look at which analytic numbers?

Sure on the surface a regular forward at a .93 PPG compared to dman at .75 means something but most rookie forwards, in fact I'm trying to remember the last one that is recent maybe Toews/Kopitar, don't have that 200 foot game either.

I also think that some voters are going to look at Celebrini having 20 ESP points compared to Hutson's 17 as an advantage for Celebrini.


No you're jumping the gun read the post above the one you made.

Post #1249
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There only being a 3 point difference in ESP between a forward and a defenseman should be an argument for the defenseman, not the forward
 
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Frank Drebin said:
Appealing to the PWHA as if their votes really mean anything.
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The votes of the PHWA literally mean everything. Their votes determine who wins the trophy.

wetcoast said:
I guess it removes the 90% of voters credibility as well right?
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Are you trying to pretend that 90 percent of the voters have said Celebrini is the overwhelming favourite?

Cause the reality is that 90 percent of the voters the author spoke to have Celebrini leading right now.

You just completely made up that it was 90 percent of the actual voters and you also completely fabricated that they said he was their "overwhelming" leader.

Nobody is claiming you lack credibility for having Celebrini in the lead. What is being questioned is your dubious claim that he somehow has an overwhelming lead and what I am saying is straight up bullshit is you now pretending that 90 percent of the PHWA agree with your silly claim.
 
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Celebrini favorite right now doesn't mean he will be favorite at the end of the season. We are only at the middle of a season. There are a lot of hockey left to he played.
 
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FerrisRox said:
The votes of the PHWA literally mean everything. Their votes determine who wins the trophy.
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Exactly.
FerrisRox said:
Are you trying to pretend that 90 percent of the voters have said Celebrini is the overwhelming favourite?
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No, see below.

FerrisRox said:
Cause the reality is that 90 percent of the voters the author spoke to have Celebrini leading right now.
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Yes that's correct and I have followed that writer on these Award watch articles for a couple of years now and they seem pretty accurate, ie they have a large enough and varied enough sample.

FerrisRox said:
You just completely made up that it was 90 percent of the actual voters and you also completely fabricated that they said he was their "overwhelming" leader.
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No I didn't make that up it was in reference to the article.

FerrisRox said:
Nobody is claiming you lack credibility for having Celebrini in the lead. What is being questioned is your dubious claim that he somehow has an overwhelming lead and what I am saying is straight up bullshit is you now pretending that 90 percent of the PHWA agree with your silly claim.
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Greg Wyshynski has really good connections among the PHWA and while we don't know the exact number of people he spoke to I remember the last one of these he did last year was pretty close to the final results across the board.

Montreal probably gets more viewing from the PHWA than San Jose as well so it's unlikely that the 90% number isn't that accurate right now.

All the voters he spoke to had Celebrini #1 on their list except 1 that had Michkov.

Will that change, probably.

My guess is that Michkov will fall behind and maybe overtaken by Wolf and Hutson solidifies a top 2 spot.

He has been second on my list for a while now.

Will it change a lot who knows but as of now it's not a hot take.

But let's follow it and see where it goes and what his numbers are the last time before voting?
 
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Celebrini plays a style that is currently unique to him and voters see that when they watch him. I suspect he has incorporated techniques from basketball.
 
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karltonian said:
Celebrini plays a style that is currently unique to him and voters see that when they watch him. I suspect he has incorporated techniques from basketball.
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What are you talking about? Can you explain what he does that is unique to himself?
 
wetcoast said:
The thing is that historically Calder voters have really favoured forwards to Dmen and that's apart of it.

That's why I brought up the examples of Lidstrom and Faber last year not winning, Hutson isn't having a better rookie season than either of those guys and my bet is that if Celebrini was doing this last season ahead of Bedard he very well may be beating out Bedard as well but that's a hypothetical.



I dunno does one game against the Canucks whose defense has blown leads a lot lately change that much?

I had to go out and was in and out on the broadcast but the goal was fluky and Guhle seemed more impressive but like I said I didn't watch the end of the game as I was out.

All that being said a single game doesn't drive the needle that much.
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He made two tape to tape passes to wide open guys that should have been buried and also got robbed on another goal by Van's goalie. Also played with unreal tenacity and grit.

Let's see how it all.shakes out. He is after all leading the points race for rookies. defencemen or not, it counts for something.
 
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Bank Shot said:
What are you talking about? Can you explain what he does that is unique to himself?
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I don’t think it’s necessarily unique to himself but the completeness of his game at this level at his age is not something I’m sure can be compared properly but Crosby is the closest. He’s 10th all time in 18 year old scoring through their first 30 games. This race is only close due to injury and that can still make an impact on this race but if everyone stays healthy, it’s Celebrini’s to lose, period.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
I don’t think it’s necessarily unique to himself but the completeness of his game at this level at his age is not something I’m sure can be compared properly but Crosby is the closest. He’s 10th all time in 18 year old scoring through their first 30 games. This race is only close due to injury and that can still make an impact on this race but if everyone stays healthy, it’s Celebrini’s to lose, period.
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I think the best comparison you can give Celebrini is something along the lines of Hischier and Barkov. Perennial Selke candidate, Puts up good points and a eventual great captain who leads by example.

He's going to be such a fun watch when the Sharks make it to the playoffs again.
 
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Xirik said:
I think the best comparison you can give Celebrini is something along the lines of Hischier and Barkov. Perennial Selke candidate, Puts up good points and a eventual great captain who leads by example.

He's going to be such a fun watch when the Sharks make it to the playoffs again.
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What ?
 
There has been extreme takes from both sides of this debate.

They are both having fantastic seasons. There is still alot of games left. Either rookie, or one of the others, can win it. No one has claimed the trophy yet.

With that said, I don't understand the backlash from that article...again no one has already won the trophy...it was an ESPN article where they polled PWHA voters (who are the actual trophy voters) not ESPN employees and said Celebrini is currently the favourite, with 90% of said voters favouring him. Yes that was one day before Hutson's 3 point game, so I'm sure that means something, but not as if one game fully sways that.
 
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Stewie Griffin said:
There has been extreme takes from both sides of this debate.

They are both having fantastic seasons. There is still alot of games left. Either rookie, or one of the others, can win it. No one has claimed the trophy yet.

With that said, I don't understand the backlash from that article...again no one has already won the trophy...it was an ESPN article where they polled PWHA voters (who are the actual trophy voters) not ESPN employees and said Celebrini is currently the favourite, with 90% of said voters favouring him. Yes that was one day before Hutson's 3 point game, so I'm sure that means something, but not as if one game fully sways that.
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Yeah, I don't get the pissing contest between Hutson and Celebrini. As a Habs fan, it changes nothing whether Celebrini, Hutson, or Michkov wins it. I'm just enjoying watching an unusually strong rookie class, knowing a player for my team is in contention for the Calder.
 
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crackdown44 said:
There only being a 3 point difference in ESP between a forward and a defenseman should be an argument for the defenseman, not the forward
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Someone will answer "ppg" or "p60" as Celebrini hasn't played as many games, but it still leaves out the relative difference between dmen and forwards. The record for a centerman is 76 and Celebrini is pacing for 20 less than that, which will put him around 16th all-time rookie C, whereas Hutson is pacing 34-35, which is just 5-6 less than the record 40 by Murphy and would place Hutson top 10 all-time rookie dmen even-strenght points.

In his last 20 games, Hutson has been pacing Murphy's record, as he had 10 EVP in 20 games.

Lesson here is, it's always tougher for dmen to score EVP, relative to forwards.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz said:
Someone will answer "ppg" or "p60" as Celebrini hasn't played as many games, but it still leaves out the relative difference between dmen and forwards. The record for a centerman is 76 and Celebrini is pacing for 20 less than that, which will put him around 16th all-time rookie C, whereas Hutson is pacing 34-35, which is just 5-6 less than the record 40 by Murphy and would place Hutson top 10 all-time rookie dmen even-strenght points.

In his last 20 games, Hutson has been pacing Murphy's record, as he had 10 EVP in 20 games.

Lesson here is, it's always tougher for dmen to score EVP, relative to forwards.
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Celebrini’s first 30 games as an 18 year old was top ten all time.
 
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