EP40 Charging Penalty

[Bizzare]

It depends, if I think he’s trying to reverse hit and leaves his feet then yes, if he’s clearly jumping to get out of the way, no.

“I’ll leave one for you though @Avsfan1921 since you want to debate weird scenarios. If a player breaks their stick and drops the second half and another player falls over it 30 seconds later.. it’s a tripping penalty right? If you don’t agree you can at least understand why it would be called though right?”

I’ve copied and pasted your question as it wasn’t included in the above for some reason:
Obviously no, it’s not a penalty, nor does this scenario have any bearing on a potential charge. And to the bolded the only scenario I’ve brought up this entire time is the one this poll is made on. You’re the one bringing up different scenarios. I’m discussing if a player leaves his feet in an attempt at body contact, it is a charge in my view.

Why do you keep lying? You asked me different weird scenarios (paraphrasing) like what If Petey stood there and put his elbow up, or put his stick up.

I quoted the rule book on my example around tripping.

Does the rule not imply it could be a penalty what I described?

What I’m trying to get at; and what you’re failing to grasp is there is a lot of ambiguity in the rules. There is connotations and denotations. I believe you have it wrong in both aspects, but trying to get you to see you at least have the connotation wrong because this is NEVER called outside of this one instance.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Why do you keep lying? You asked me different weird scenarios (paraphrasing) like what If Petey stood there and put his elbow up, or put his stick up.

I quoted the rule book on my example around tripping.

Does the rule not imply it could be a penalty what I described?

What I’m trying to get at; and what you’re failing to grasp is there is a lot of ambiguity in the rules. There is connotations and denotations. I believe you have it wrong in both aspects, but trying to get you to see you at least have the connotation wrong because this is NEVER called outside of this one instance.

I’m asking those to show you that even though he “defended” himself, or kept his ice, or whatever else, it doesn’t mean it’s not a penalty, akin to these other instances. I apologize if the context was lost on you.( Not trying to be a dick here)

 

[Bizzare]

Are you seriously comparing these two hits? Or is there some other Kronwall Havlat hit I’m forgetting about

Edit not sure why it quoted you Fission, meant to quote @Dust

Edit two … so it was @FissionFire avatar looked like Dust… been a long day… sorry Dust

I’m asking those to show you that even though he “defended” himself, or kept his ice, or whatever else, it doesn’t mean it’s not a penalty, akin to these other instances. I apologize if the context was lost on you.( Not trying to be a dick here)

I’m asking mine because I’m trying to show you that the definition in the rule book has implied meanings and actual meanings. Common sense doesn’t always prevail though.

You still haven’t answered my question though you keep being a worm. By literal wording would the scenario I listed be a trip. Go read it 10 times because it seems to be required and get back to me. (Not trying to be a dick)

 

[TheBrew]

If you’re about to get hit and stick up your elbow is that elbowing? It’s a weird play but that’s a penalty.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Are you seriously comparing these two hits? Or is there some other Kronwall Havlat hit I’m forgetting about

Edit not sure why it quoted you Fission, meant to quote @Dust

I’m asking mine because I’m trying to show you that the definition in the rule book has implied meanings and actual meanings. Common sense doesn’t always prevail though.

You still haven’t answered my question though you keep being a worm. By literal wording would the scenario I listed be a trip. Go read it 10 times because it seems to be required and get back to me. (Not trying to be a dick)

Which one, the Mcdavid trip? I’ve answered.
Your broken stick trip? I’ve answered.

Both in the last couple posts

 

[rea]

View attachment 872713

Hope this helps.

If we are taking the actual verbatim of these words, it still spells out a non call. Jumping up is not jumping into. In any manner states how the action happens, whether with speed or not. So all I can take from that is either you see him launching in the direction of the player, or he's jumping to mitigate the hit.

If you notice, alot of times when a player on the boards sees a hit coming, they also jump. Neither here nor there, but if everyone's gonna follow the rulebooks to define the rule, gotta follow it to the letter of the law. Off topic, but This is exactly why that challenged goal against Boston should not have counted. By letter of the rule, verbatim, it was an illegal play.

This play, as defined by the words verbatim, you have to decide whether he was jumping into the direction of the attacker, which he was not.

 

[Ezekial]

If we are taking the actual verbatim of these words, it still spells out a non call. Jumping up is not jumping into. In any manner states how the action happens, whether with speed or not. So all I can take from that is either you see him launching in the direction of the player, or he's jumping to mitigate the hit.

If you notice, alot of times when a player on the boards sees a hit coming, they also jump. Neither here nor there, but if everyone's gonna follow the rulebooks to define the rule, gotta follow it to the letter of the law. Off topic, but This is exactly why that challenged goal against Boston should not have counted. By letter of the rule, verbatim, it was an illegal play.

This play, as defined by the words verbatim, you have to decide whether he was jumping into the direction of the attacker, which he was not.

If contact is coming at you and you jump, you've jumped into contact. That answers your post where you get hung up on the word "into"

 

[rea]

If contact is coming at you and you jump, you've jumped into contact. That answers your post where you get hung up on the word "into"

You do realize that everytime an attacker hits a defender on the boards and he jumps, by that logic, the defender jumping is charging

 

[Avsfan1921]

You do realize that everytime an attacker hits a defender on the boards and he jumps, by that logic, the defender jumping is charging

No, the defender is getting hit not trying to hit in your instance. That’s why the debate is, or at least should be, if he was jumping to reverse hit or get out of the way.

 

[Ezekial]

You do realize that everytime an attacker hits a defender on the boards and he jumps, by that logic, the defender jumping is charging

He jumped before contact was made, he jumped into contact. Anyway I'm over it, this is obsessive stupid shit at this point. A 2 min penalty was called and nothing came of it and the Canucks won. Who f***ing cares anymore.

 

[Avsfan1921]

He jumped before contact was made, he jumped into contact. Anyway I'm over it, this is obsessive stupid shit at this point. A 2 min penalty was called and nothing came of it and the Canucks won. Who f***ing cares anymore.

No don’t leave! This is fun!!!

We can all go around and around!

If you’re about to get hit and stick up your elbow is that elbowing? It’s a weird play but that’s a penalty.

I tried to draw this parallel and many similar to show that but was not clear enough. Hopefully how you’ve worded it makes this stance clearer

 

[rea]

No, the defender is getting hit not trying to hit. That’s why the debate is, or at least should be, if he was jumping to reverse hit or get out of the way.

Well that's the whole point of deciphering the word into. If you feel he was pushing his body into the direction of the oncoming player, then it's a reverse hit. If it's been decided he's pushing his body upward, that doesn't feel to me like he's trying to initiate contact.

He jumped before contact was made, he jumped into contact. Anyway I'm over it, this is obsessive stupid shit at this point. A 2 min penalty was called and nothing came of it and the Canucks won. Who f***ing cares anymore.

Listen, no need to get all crazy. This is a forum, ppl discuss shit. If it's too much for your patience, you don't have to respond and it's ok.

Youre right, whats done is done, but If this sequence ever happened down the road and it's to your team, and it costs them, well this is why these things need to be deciphered. But as you were, thanks for your contribution

 

[Bizzare]

Which one, the Mcdavid trip? I’ve answered.
Your broken stick trip? I’ve answered.

Both in the last couple posts

All you said was no it’s not a penalty. What part of this definition does my scenario get disqualified from a penalty?

I can tell you which part, common sense… but… if we want to go by the letter of the law…

 

[rea]

No, the defender is getting hit not trying to hit in your instance. That’s why the debate is, or at least should be, if he was jumping to reverse hit or get out of the way.

Also, humor me here, for discussions sake, if ep was on the boards, and he did the exact same thing, what is it? Foegele is coming in for the hit, he's bracing as he has shoulder lowered hands up, so if he is going in w presence to hit except its on boards, and ep is does the exact same motion, is it still charging?

 

[Avsfan1921]

All you said was no it’s not a penalty. What part of this definition does my scenario get disqualified from a penalty?

I can tell you which part, common sense… but… if we want to go by the letter of the law…

You’re talking about a scenario where a players stick breaks, 30 seconds pass and a player trips on it. Don’t be silly. Not even in the same realm of this discussion. No further comment is needed in regards to this trip scenario.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Also, humor me here, for discussions sake, if ep was on the boards, and he did the exact same thing, what is it? Foegele is coming in for the hit, he's bracing as he has shoulder lowered hands up, so if he is going in w presence to hit except its on boards, and ep is does the exact same motion, is it still charging?

I’ve been asked this in the last couple pages, and yes, if all the same parameters apply. A player jumping into a hit and leaves his feet before contact is a charge no matter where it is on the ice, imo.

 

[DimitriL07]

Canuck fan but whatever on the call. It’s over with. The Janmark one is what was hilarious to me. Was trying to a golden globe on that play.

 

[Bizzare]

You’re talking about a scenario where a players stick breaks, 30 seconds pass and a player trips on it. Don’t be silly. Not even in the same realm of this discussion. No further comment is needed in regards to this trip scenario.

Sure, 5 seconds stick isn’t broken? Basically what you’re saying is, according to how the rule is written I am right.. but you don’t want to admit it. If you could debate in good faith we could agree that common sense should be applied and my scenario is clearly not a penalty.

Then we could do the same with this hit.

For the record your stance for a penalty is based on this definition right? “a player who skates, jumps into or charges an opponent in any manner” literally a requirement of a HIT.

Edit: requirement not definition.

 

[rea]

I’ve been asked this in the last couple pages, and yes, if all the same parameters apply. A player jumping into a hit and leaves his feet before contact is a charge no matter where it is on the ice, imo.

OK so again, for you, jumping up is jumping into. All good I just wanted to know your opinions on the matter. I'll try to find some videos of some hits and see if verdict is still that. Appreciate the constructive debate.

 

[Bizzare]

OK so again, for you, jumping up is jumping into. All good I just wanted to know your opinions on the matter. I'll try to find some videos of some hits and see if verdict is still that. Appreciate the constructive debate.

Just watch the rest of the game right now, I’m positive it’ll happen.

 

[Avsfan1921]

Sure, 5 seconds stick isn’t broken? Basically what you’re saying is, according to how the rule is written I am right.. but you don’t want to admit it. If you could debate in good faith we could agree that common sense should be applied and my scenario is clearly not a penalty.

Then we could do the same with this hit.

For the record your stance for a penalty is based on this definition right? “a player who skates, jumps into or charges an opponent in any manner” literally the definition of a HIT.

No, I am not debating a ridiculous instance where a player drops a broken stick. Make comparable parallels if you want to debate hypotheticals.

For the record, for the 1000 and 3rd time: My stance on the penalty and how I interpret the rule is that if a player intentionally makes contact with another and leaves their feet, it is a charge. He sees the guy coming, shows his back and jumps up to administer a reverse hit. IMO.

OK so again, for you, jumping up is jumping into. All good I just wanted to know your opinions on the matter. I'll try to find some videos of some hits and see if verdict is still that. Appreciate the constructive debate.

In this instance, to me, he appears to be jumping up in order to initiate a reverse hit, yes.

 

[Bizzare]

No, I am not debating a ridiculous instance where a player drops a broken stick. Make comparable parallels if you want to debate hypotheticals.

For the record, for the 1000 and 3rd time: My stance on the penalty and how I interpret the rule is that if a player intentionally makes contact with another and leaves their feet, it is a charge. He sees the guy coming, shows his back and jumps up to administer a reverse hit. IMO.


In this instance, to me, he appears to be jumping up in order to initiate a reverse hit, yes.

This is clearly a waste of time, have a good one.

 

[rea]

Jump I guess u can say isn't as egregious, but it's jumping back into the player.

 

[Avsfan1921]

This is clearly a waste of time, have a good one.

Bye.

 

[Bizzare]

Jump I guess u can say isn't as egregious, but it's jumping back into the player.

I wasted too much time, it’s not worth it…

I’m almost home so at least it made my travel day go quicker.

Fwiw I will actually agree there is no jump on this one though