Olympics: Enjoy it, Canadian fans, while we can...

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

This isn't meant to be racist at all.

But I honestly believe the only way Canada isn't the best hockey country in the world EVER is if more black people in the states start playing hockey, because then they will dominate like in every other sport.

I've heard the same thing about soccer (which is inexpensive to play, accessible and has a strong demographic mix in the U.S.) for the last 40 years and nothing has come of it.

 

[Mehar]

(* Not sure if this is a thread, a speech or a "circle jerk" for Canadians. Maybe it's all 3.*)

I remember reading a Sports Illustrated article in the early 2000's that referenced the ebb and flow of international hockey. The writer wrote that when it came to international hockey, Canada pulls ahead and the rest of the world catches up. Canada pulls ahead again and the rest of the world catches up. I saw that as insightful because whether it is the bulls/bears of the stock market or the good and bad we go through in everyday life, that is the way life is. Everything goes in streaks/cycles.

Reading posts regarding Canada's possible submission to the 2016 World Cup and the 2018 Olympics, you can't help but be proud of the quality of our players. As Jack Slater said, the odds of Connor McDavid appearing in a Best on Best competition for Canada, within the decade, are slim. That speaks volumes.

As I predicted years ago (patting myself on the back because there were a lot of doubters at the time), in 2018 the gap between Canada and everyone else will be greater than in 2014. Given how many people/posters have predicted the end of Canada's hockey dominance over the last 40+ years, that is impressive.

As someone who is old , I saw but did not appreciate the other Golden Ages of Canadian hockey until they were over. The teams in the 70's were amazing but the Soviets kicked the snot out of us in 1981 - still stings. The mid 80's to early 90's were stacked but the Americans, Czechs, Swedes and Finns were about to ice their Greatest Generations.

So, to my fellow Canadian hockey fans, enjoy this while we can. The other countries are starting to refill their cupboards and the gap will start to close in the early 2020's. Then you, like I have in the past, might wish you appreciated how great we were when you had the chance.

Well said. They said this over a decade ago as well by the way, and with Canada winning the last 4 out of 5 Best on Best Tournaments (3 Golds and 1 World Cup); all the doubters who said Canada was on the decline after the 1998 Olympics are eating their words. A decade from now, i do see the US being the top competitor for Canada, but there is no reason why Canada still cannot be the undisputed hockey nation in the next decade as well.

As for 2016 and 2018, i see Canada as the favourite going in. It would be nice to Stamkos finally wearing a Canada Jersey in a best on best tournament. He was injured this year, and bypassed in 2010 when i thought he should be on the team as the 13th forward.

 

[86Habs]

Goalie production has been average to less then average and the lack of quality has hurt us at both the WJC and WC for awhile now. At the senior best on best level we have not been bitten yet but will if we cannot get something going besides Price.

It has to improve, and soon.

I guess the deeper, more fundamental question is - why hasn't our minor hockey system produced goaltenders of a similar quality/caliber as the forwards and defencemen that have been produced over the last, say, decade and a bit? I mean, look at our WJC teams, even the gold medal-winning ones, and the goaltenders are by and large a collection of journeymen or busted prospects (with the exceptions of Price and Bernier)....

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I guess the deeper, more fundamental question is - why hasn't our minor hockey system produced goaltenders of a similar quality/caliber as the forwards and defencemen that have been produced over the last, say, decade and a bit? I mean, look at our WJC teams, even the gold medal-winning ones, and the goaltenders are by and large a collection of journeymen or busted prospects (with the exceptions of Price and Bernier)....

I can only guess as to what has happened and this is my guess. After Nagano the cry came out that we were lacking in high end skilled skaters with too many players who were muckers and grinders (our goaltending depth at that time was still the best in the world hands down) and so the race was on to get cracking in producing more high skilled players and so the art of goaltending just got forgotten in the shuffle, and it is indeed a true art in the game of hockey, an entity in itself .

I think there was an assumption that was one position Canada would NEVER have to worry about since we always had great goaltending, i think they felt it was a position that did not have to be developed and nurtured so much, it would just happen.

I remember a quote from an American hockey sportswriter once in the 80's that said "shake a tree in Canada, and great goaltenders will fall out"

And it was true for so long, but it got taken for granted.

At least that is my theory.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

all the doubters who said Canada was on the decline after the 1998 Olympics are eating their words.

They will never admit to it. Deny, deny, deny, deny. They just predict it will happen later.

It is like people who predict the collapse of the stock market. When it doesn't happen, they push off their prediction for a few more years, everyone is happy because the market is going up and no one remembers. When it does happen, they stand on a soap box and scream, "I told you so. I knew it. I predicted this!" There are economists who made a career, and millions of dollars, doing exactly that - see Marc Faber, Dr. Doom.

As for 2016 and 2018, i see Canada as the favourite going in.

Of course. 2016, on the small ice, it will be Canada and U.S. in the GMG.

In 2018, we will be huge favourites against all comers.

I guess the deeper, more fundamental question is - why hasn't our minor hockey system produced goaltenders of a similar quality/caliber as the forwards and defencemen that have been produced over the last, say, decade and a bit? I mean, look at our WJC teams, even the gold medal-winning ones, and the goaltenders are by and large a collection of journeymen or busted prospects (with the exceptions of Price and Bernier)....

Ebb and flow. Thank God, we only need 1.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

We need more then one for other tournaments though. And what happens when that number one is gone and we have no-one good enough to replace him?.

Bottom line: We need to be doing a much better job producing goalies.

 

[86Habs]

I can only guess as to what has happened and this is my guess. After Nagano the cry came out that we were lacking in high end skilled skaters with too many players who were muckers and grinders (our goaltending depth at that time was still the best in the world hands down) and so the race was on to get cracking in producing more high skilled players and so the art of goaltending just got forgotten in the shuffle, and it is indeed a true art in the game of hockey, an entity in itself .

I think there was an assumption that was one position Canada would NEVER have to worry about since we always had great goaltending, i think they felt it was a position that did not have to be developed and nurtured so much, it would just happen.

I remember a quote from an American hockey sportswriter once in the 80's that said "shake a tree in Canada, and great goaltenders will fall out"

And it was true for so long, but it got taken for granted.

At least that is my theory.

Yeah, that's a fairly reasonable theory. Part of it may also be attributed to the cost of goaltending equipment which, if you're from a middle/modest-income family, is prohibitive if you need to refresh your set of equipment every year or two as you grow up. Goaltending school, if you're serious about learning and excelling at that position, can also be very expensive - much moreso than power skating clinics or the summer/autumn hockey schools run by the universities that I used to attend in my community (in small-town N.B.).

While hockey is an expensive sport, no matter how you cut it, being a goaltender is an additional burden on the family so the "net" over the population base isn't cast as wide, so to speak.

And maybe, part of it is a lack of role models in the NHL. Face it, a lot of the great goaltenders who influenced the younger players in the NHL now (or who are in junior) are a bit idiosyncratic - Hasek and Roy, for example - and at least when I was growing up being a goaltender wasn't the "cool" position to play, we'd much rather try and emulate Bourque, Yzerman, Messier, etc, etc. And this is extremely anectodal, but when I played competitive hockey in H.S. and university the goaltenders on my teams were consistently a bit strange and didn't fit in socially with the remainder of the team (no offense to any goaltenders out there).

Its a combination of factors, I believe....your theory holds water, and maybe its just part of a normal cycle.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Yeah, that's a fairly reasonable theory. Part of it may also be attributed to the cost of goaltending equipment which, if you're from a middle/modest-income family, is prohibitive if you need to refresh your set of equipment every year or two as you grow up. Goaltending school, if you're serious about learning and excelling at that position, can also be very expensive - much moreso than power skating clinics or the summer/autumn hockey schools run by the universities that I used to attend in my community (in small-town N.B.).

While hockey is an expensive sport, no matter how you cut it, being a goaltender is an additional burden on the family so the "net" over the population base isn't cast as wide, so to speak.

And maybe, part of it is a lack of role models in the NHL. Face it, a lot of the great goaltenders who influenced the younger players in the NHL now (or who are in junior) are a bit idiosyncratic - Hasek and Roy, for example - and at least when I was growing up being a goaltender wasn't the "cool" position to play, we'd much rather try and emulate Bourque, Yzerman, Messier, etc, etc. And this is extremely anectodal, but when I played competitive hockey in H.S. and university the goaltenders on my teams were consistently a bit strange and didn't fit in socially with the remainder of the team (no offense to any goaltenders out there).

Its a combination of factors, I believe....your theory holds water, and maybe its just part of a normal cycle.

I got a chuckle when you mentioned that the goalies you played with growing up were a bit strange. That is my experience too, they were...................different,I think wanting to be a goalie takes a different mentality.

Not sure how the expensive part of being a goalie plays a part in Canadas weak goaltender production of late, if Hockey and goalie gear is expensive here then I assume it is the same in Finland too but look at the goalies they are producing.

Goalie is never the cool position to play as you mention, scoring goals is where you get to be the big star, chicks "dig the long ball" as the commercial goes.Still, that never seemed to stop us from producing goalies in the past either, there was always that crazy guy who gravitated to the position and became a top goalie for us, why not now?

I don't know for sure and I agree it probably is a combination of factors, I am just not sure what they are. I do know we have to start putting increased emphasis on it's development however.

I am getting sick to my stomach of cringing every time an opposing team get's a half assed opportunity in our end and thinking "there is probably a better then 50% chance our goalie is gonna fluff this shot up".

 

[1Gold Standard]

I got a chuckle when you mentioned that the goalies you played with growing up were a bit strange. That is my experience too, they were...................different,I think wanting to be a goalie takes a different mentality.

Not sure how the expensive part of being a goalie plays a part in Canadas weak goaltender production of late, if Hockey and goalie gear is expensive here then I assume it is the same in Finland too but look at the goalies they are producing.

Goalie is never the cool position to play as you mention, scoring goals is where you get to be the big star, chicks "dig the long ball" as the commercial goes.Still, that never seemed to stop us from producing goalies in the past either, there was always that crazy guy who gravitated to the position and became a top goalie for us, why not now?

I don't know for sure and I agree it probably is a combination of factors, I am just not sure what they are. I do know we have to start putting increased emphasis on it's development however.

I am getting sick to my stomach of cringing every time an opposing team get's a half assed opportunity in our end and thinking "there is probably a better then 50% chance our guy goalie is gonna fluff this shot up".

it's not just gear...it's associated costs such as individual coaching, which, in Canada, is almost always paid for by the parents. In Finland and Sweden more players/goaltenders get individual coaching paid for by their Federation. Logistics are always more challenging in a country as big as Canada (not that it should be an excuse for Hockey Canada, as it has a licence to print money) but if you are not identified as an elite "program of excellence" goaltender here, then you better have deep pocketed parents if you want to continue in the game. Hockey Canada people have been in Finland for the past several years and HC is adopting elements of the Finnish program in training and coaching here, but it's going to take years before it starts showing results.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

it's not just gear...it's associated costs such as individual coaching, which, in Canada, is almost always paid for by the parents. In Finland and Sweden more players/goaltenders get individual coaching paid for by their Federation. Logistics are always more challenging in a country as big as Canada (not that it should be an excuse for Hockey Canada, as it has a licence to print money) but if you are not identified as an elite "program of excellence" goaltender here, then you better have deep pocketed parents if you want to continue in the game. Hockey Canada people have been in Finland for the past several years and HC is adopting elements of the Finnish program in training and coaching here, but it's going to take years before it starts showing results.

Thanks for the info writer.

Sounds like a step in the right direction.

 

[JackSlater]

it's not just gear...it's associated costs such as individual coaching, which, in Canada, is almost always paid for by the parents. In Finland and Sweden more players/goaltenders get individual coaching paid for by their Federation. Logistics are always more challenging in a country as big as Canada (not that it should be an excuse for Hockey Canada, as it has a licence to print money) but if you are not identified as an elite "program of excellence" goaltender here, then you better have deep pocketed parents if you want to continue in the game. Hockey Canada people have been in Finland for the past several years and HC is adopting elements of the Finnish program in training and coaching here, but it's going to take years before it starts showing results.

What Finland does with goaltenders is great, and Canada should absolutely copy it. This article is a pretty interesting read on the man who seems largely responsible for their goaltending boom:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-puck-stops-here/357579/

Whatever Finland is doing with forwards and defencemen... Canada should stay away from.

I believe that Canadian goaltending is too dependent on teaching a style as opposed to actual skills. The butterfly was a very nice adaptation to traditional goaltending styles that gave Canada an edge in goaltending, but other countries adopted that style and then moved ahead. Canadian goaltenders seem more inclined to rely on their technique rather than their skill to make saves. It reminds me of the issue with skater development in the 90s when systems were being taught more than actual hockey skills.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Thanks for the info writer.

Sounds like a step in the right direction.

Of course that is just one issue among many many others....another 2 or 3 years and we should start seeing some tangible results... maybe we'll get a glimpse at this year's WJC.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Of course that is just one issue among many many others....another 2 or 3 years and we should start seeing some tangible results... maybe we'll get a glimpse at this year's WJC.

Well this year Fucale is pretty much the incumbent starter right?


He actually played pretty damn good last year, it was a relief to witness.

 

[1Gold Standard]

What Finland does with goaltenders is great, and Canada should absolutely copy it. This article is a pretty interesting read on the man who seems largely responsible for their goaltending boom:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-puck-stops-here/357579/

Whatever Finland is doing with forwards and defencemen... Canada should stay away from.

I believe that Canadian goaltending is too dependent on teaching a style as opposed to actual skills. The butterfly was a very nice adaptation to traditional goaltending styles that gave Canada an edge in goaltending, but other countries adopted that style and then moved ahead. Canadian goaltenders seem more inclined to rely on their technique rather than their skill to make saves. It reminds me of the issue with skater development in the 90s when systems were being taught more than actual hockey skills.

Can't disagree with anything there. And after the 98 summit those issues were addressed and it didn't take long to see the results...but due to Hockey Canada arrogance and the belief in an infinite supply of Quebec goaltenders, goaltending was ignored...until about 3 years ago...

 

[1Gold Standard]

Well this year Fucale is pretty much the incumbent starter right?


He actually played pretty damn good last year, it was a relief to witness.

I actually think Jarry or McDonald will bypass Fucale. but whoever has their s**t together come December camp gets to play... and I wish they would stop with rotating the first few games...name the starter out of camp and let him run with it.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I actually think Jarry or McDonald will bypass Fucale. but whoever has their s**t together come December camp gets to play... and I wish they would stop with rotating the first few games...name the starter out of camp and let him run with it.

HockeyCanada tends to go with returnees though. Have to think he will have to lose the job in the first couple of games.

 

[1Gold Standard]

HockeyCanada tends to go with returnees though. Have to think he will have to lose the job in the first couple of games.

They have to change that approach. It hasn't been working. it's time for a new one.

 

[xxxx]

[/B]

Can't disagree with anything there. And after the 98 summit those issues were addressed and it didn't take long to see the results...but due to Hockey Canada arrogance and the belief in an infinite supply of Quebec goaltenders, goaltending was ignored...until about 3 years ago...

I don't think it was arrogance, there just was no problem with goaltending at the time rather. You can't fix something that is not broken. I believe that the goaltending will be better in 5-10 years and we will see it in the NHL and in the World Juniors.

I agree with you and all the other posters here, goaltending has been definitely something that HC, needs to focus on.

 

[1Gold Standard]

I don't think it was arrogance, there just was no problem with goaltending at the time rather. You can't fix something that is not broken. I believe that the goaltending will be better in 5-10 years and we will see it in the NHL and in the World Juniors.

I agree with you and all the other posters here, goaltending has been definitely something that HC, needs to focus on.

Programs should be forever under review and you have to be always looking for ways to improve, nothing is perfect..and quite frankly the type of philosophy you espouse "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is part of of the problem in this country.

 

[xxxx]

Programs should be forever under review and you have to be always looking for ways to improve, nothing is perfect..and quite frankly the type of philosophy you espouse "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is part of of the problem in this country.

As someone said earlier, it's rather part of natural process. Canada moves forward, the world chatches up, then Canada moves forward again... well, you should always want to get better, no matter how good you are, I totally agree with you on this one - so yeah, maybe the could've done something more... but at least it seems they are doing something now.

 

[Canuckistani]

Part of me feels as if the Canadian media feeds on this "Canada will not dominate hockey much longer" theory for the sake of ratings and stirring up discussion. Jeez, looking back we were supposed to fall off the hockey dominance podium back in the 90's yet we are still rocking out the best.

Back in the late 1990s this discussion was valid. Canada lost the World Cup in 1996, lost the Olympics in 1998 and didn't medal at the WHC from 1998-2002. Meanwhile, 1998 began a seven year gold drought at the WJC.

Heading into Salt Lake in 2002 it really did look like Canada was falling fast. Canada had gone ten straight tournaments without a gold and had lost two best-on-best events in a row for the first (and only) time. A bit of back lack, injuries, and a dominant run by the Czechs are to blame.

But since 2002 we've been treated to one of the most impressive stretches in our hockey history - at a time when the overall talent gap has never been closer!

Perhaps what's most revealing is that what passes for a slump in Canada is normal for other top-7 nations.

Five straight WJCs with no gold? Five straight WHC with no gold? An Olympic losing streak of one (2006)? No big deal for anyone else.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Back in the late 1990s this discussion was valid. Canada lost the World Cup in 1996, lost the Olympics in 1998 and didn't medal at the WHC from 1998-2002. Meanwhile, 1998 began a seven year gold drought at the WJC.

Heading into Salt Lake in 2002 it really did look like Canada was falling fast. Canada had gone ten straight tournaments without a gold and had lost two best-on-best events in a row for the first (and only) time. A bit of back lack, injuries, and a dominant run by the Czechs are to blame.

But since 2002 we've been treated to one of the most impressive stretches in our hockey history - at a time when the overall talent gap has never been closer!

Perhaps what's most revealing is that what passes for a slump in Canada is normal for other top-7 nations.

Five straight WJCs with no gold? Five straight WHC with no gold? An Olympic losing streak of one (2006)? No big deal for anyone else.

From 2002-09 was an impressive run. Since then, winning 3 tournaments (2 Olympics and 1 U18 tournament) out of 17 tournaments, 9 of which we failed to medal, in my estimation is something less than impressive. Time for HC to get its **** together. But I've been saying that for a while now... nobody seems to be paying attention....content with the once every 4 years Olympics.... which is fine...but if you think winning Olympics 3 out of 5 times is going to continue, it's not likely... therefore the dimwits at HC better start thinking about all the other tournaments.

 

[Xokkeu]

From 2002-09 was an impressive run. Since then, winning 3 tournaments (2 Olympics and 1 U18 tournament) out of 17 tournaments, 9 of which we failed to medal, in my estimation is something less than impressive. Time for HC to get its **** together. But I've been saying that for a while now... nobody seems to be paying attention....content with the once every 4 years Olympics.... which is fine...but if you think winning Olympics 3 out of 5 times is going to continue, it's not likely... therefore the dimwits at HC better start thinking about all the other tournaments.

You're only a bad bounce away from losing any given Olympic tournament, but if you keep putting out five of the top 10 of every NHL draft, you're more than putting yourself in the drivers position to win those.

 

[1Gold Standard]

You're only a bad bounce away from losing any given Olympic tournament, but if you keep putting out five of the top 10 of every NHL draft, you're more than putting yourself in the drivers position to win those.

I believe that was the point I was making... and churning out 5 of the Top 10 prospects is the least I'm expecting, given the resources this country puts into it...being in the drivers seat to win the Olympics once every 4 years while ignoring all the others besides the WJHC is a flawed strategy imo.

I'd like the CHL to rework its sched. so that the U18 team is a little better prepared and manned for the April tournament...this would then filter up to the U20 team. Can't do much about the NHL cradle-robbing practices of junior players...it is what it is...

And of course you've read enough of my posts to know what I think of HC's approach to the WHC..and that needs to be reworked....

but I loved HC's record from 2002-09 on all levels. from 2010-present day not so much when you look at the big picture. There are just too many tournaments without a medal.. and HC needs to start answering for that.

 

[Get North]

There are just too many tournaments without a medal.. and HC needs to start answering for that.

Exactly.

Canadians want to win every tournamet, every game, every period and it leaves a crappy feeling no matter which tournament it is. World Championships don't have the best Canadians but I'll wake up early to watch them play because I want to see Canada win. It's a lie that Canadians don't care about the WC because they don't have their best players, Olympics feel worse losing but it still leaves a bad feeling when we lose. The U17s isn't easy to see us lose, the point is no matter which tournament, it doesn't matter how big or small it is many Canadians will tune in to watch and seeing Canada consistently losing in the smallest tournaments doesn't feel good at all.

Great, we can win the Olympics but we can't win anything else. Why isn't something big happening in the HC brass? Come on we win a tournament every 4 years but what's between? What's between is a whole bunch of losses in tournaments.