Proposal: Ehlers/Dubious to Calgary

[Romang67]

Once again, the point you fail to mention is age. PPG centre who is also 29.

Yes, he's a full 5 months older than Gaudreau. Practically decrepit.

I'd say there are a fair number of Flames fans in this thread who seem to have a more realistic view on the cost of trading for a PPG center. If the Flames agree with your take, there isn't a conversation to be had.

 

[Jimmyjets]

There are actually a lot of moves that make sense. Calgary has a variety of assets. The problem is that WPG fans don't realize that no team is trading a very young potential #1 centre for an aging out #1 centre. Not in the cap world. It's awful asset management.

If you think the team you has can win, then just keep it. If you want a hockey trade, it will have to be players of similar ages.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that there are a lot of moves that make sense for both teams. The moves that make sense to us are 1) stand pat and move forward with what we have, 2) mini rebuild where we trade for a blue chip prospect that is NHL ready or someone that has just broken into the league with a team that wants to win the cup in the next 2-3 years and will be on the downswing when said prospect is an impact player.

Turning one of the best value contracts in the entire NHL into a pile of magic beans is the very last thing that we should do. Right after keep Scheif and let him walk as a UFA.

With this team, 20% of the way through the season we were in first place in the central. Now 50% of the way through the season and we are going to be hard pressed to make the playoffs. We need to turn things around immediately coming out of the break here. The next 2 weeks will be telling for us but even if we transition to sellers it will be Copp and Stastny that get moved, not 55.

None of these offers in this thread have caused me to consider them for more than a few seconds to realize that the Jets wouldn't be interested in them. I get why the Flames would be interested but there is nothing that improves our situation.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

For scheifele it will need to be something like 2 firsts, Pelletier, zary/coronato.

I like Scheifele, but the Flames aren't giving up the equivalent of 4 first round picks for him.

 

[blankall]

Yes, he's a full 5 months older than Gaudreau. Practically decrepit.

I'd say there are a fair number of Flames fans in this thread who seem to have a more realistic view on the cost of trading for a PPG center. If the Flames agree with your take, there isn't a conversation to be had.

And Gaudreau isn't returning 4 1st round picks at this point.

 

[Romang67]

And Gaudreau isn't returning 4 1st round picks at this point.

Yeah, I think we're done here. You aren't getting a PPG center for the value you're willing to bring to the table. Your hard limit is a player who was picked in the range of 1st round picks that are traded every year for rentals, and has since done well, but in practice hasn't actually made the NHL yet.

I'll leave this discussion with a note. Teams wouldn't be trading Scheifele to build their team around him for the next 5 years. You are getting him to put your team in contention status over the next 2.5 full seasons, and the next three seasons. The discussion about his age is largely besides the point, unless you think he's going to drop off a cliff over the next 2.5 years.

 

[Bond]

Yeah, I think we're done here. You aren't getting a PPG center for the value you're willing to bring to the table. Your hard limit is a player who was picked in the range of 1st round picks that are traded every year for rentals, and has since done well, but in practice hasn't actually made the NHL yet.

I'll leave this discussion with a note. Teams wouldn't be trading Scheifele to build their team around him for the next 5 years. You are getting him to put your team in contention status over the next 2.5 full seasons, and the next three seasons. The discussion about his age is largely besides the point, unless you think he's going to drop off a cliff over the next 2.5 years.

I still think he goes cheaper than Jets fans would want but he only gets traded if Jets management has decided he isn't a fit. I think he'd return roster player, great prospect, and a first (IE Duchene trade). Otherwise, the Jets keep him.

 

[blankall]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that there are a lot of moves that make sense for both teams. The moves that make sense to us are 1) stand pat and move forward with what we have, 2) mini rebuild where we trade for a blue chip prospect that is NHL ready or someone that has just broken into the league with a team that wants to win the cup in the next 2-3 years and will be on the downswing when said prospect is an impact player.

Turning one of the best value contracts in the entire NHL into a pile of magic beans is the very last thing that we should do. Right after keep Scheif and let him walk as a UFA.

With this team, 20% of the way through the season we were in first place in the central. Now 50% of the way through the season and we are going to be hard pressed to make the playoffs. We need to turn things around immediately coming out of the break here. The next 2 weeks will be telling for us but even if we transition to sellers it will be Copp and Stastny that get moved, not 55.

None of these offers in this thread have caused me to consider them for more than a few seconds to realize that the Jets wouldn't be interested in them. I get why the Flames would be interested but there is nothing that improves our situation.

This is the reality of rebuilds these days. Also, why I'm not really for scorched earth rebuilds anymore. At some point you are taking valuable, yet declining assets and trading them in for magic beans. That's all you'll ever get for a forward that is 28+. If you wait until an upcoming UFA, you'll get even less, and every fan will be going on about how you should have traded him earlier.

The idea that you're going to recoup a younger PPG center for an aging one is absurd. Not going to happen. If Scheifele is traded, it will be for a grab bag, made of 3-4 magic beans, or potentially might include roster player who looks like they've already hit their ceiling as a 2nd line player.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Most projected #1C aren't in the AHL in their draft+3 seasons. It's not unheard of, but acting as if Pelletier is a surefire future #1C at this point in his career is a big stretch.

As I said, if your hard limit for a point per game center on a friendly contract is Pelletier, there isn't a discussion to be had here. On the Jets end, it's very likely that any trade involving Scheifele starts with someone of Pelletier's value, and the other team keeps adding a lot.

Pelletier's not a center prospect at all so he's certainly not a potential 1C.

I think they are more or less referring to other teams trading their potential 1C's like Dach, Cozens, or Zegras

 

[Jimmyjets]

This is the reality of rebuilds these days. Also, why I'm not really for scorched earth rebuilds anymore. At some point you are taking valuable, yet declining assets and trading them in for magic beans. That's all you'll ever get for a forward that is 28+. If you wait until an upcoming UFA, you'll get even less, and every fan will be going on about how you should have traded him earlier.

The idea that you're going to recoup a younger PPG center for an aging one is absurd. Not going to happen. If Scheifele is traded, it will be for a grab bag, made of 3-4 magic beans, or potentially might include roster player who looks like they've already hit their ceiling as a 2nd line player.

I'm glad that we both see that there is no trade to be made here because you don't have what it would take to make one happen. And it appears even if you did have the pieces, you wouldn't be willing to move them.

For a PPG center at the deadline your talking 1st and a top prospect at a minimum. Or 1st and roster player. When you're talking about a PPG center with term, they pretty much never get traded. You have Eichel that demanded a trade and was injured and forced his way out returning a 1st, 2nd, blue chip C prospect in Krebs that only fell in his draft year due to injury and then Tuch that is a roster player that was a former 1st rounder himself on an incredible value contract in exchange for Eichel and a 3rd.

These are the postion players that every team wants and needs and typically the only way to get them is to draft them or buy them in free agency. The Flames don't have what the Jets would need because you don't have that blue chip prospect that we would covet in a position of need. 1st is a 1st but we don't want Left D and we don't want Left wing and we don't want someone eating up more cap than Scheif that will make it difficult for us to ink PLD to a big money deal.

Even Tkachuk has a $9M qualifying offer this offseason so I wouldn't want him.

The Flames are an aging team that needs to win now so in that sense I get that Scheif would be a fit for you. Markstorm 32, Tavev 32, Backlund 32, Lucic 33, Coleman 30, Gaudreau same age as Scheif, Lindholm is 27, Monahan is 27. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. If you want a cup you need to ride Markstrom to it and as he enters his mid 30s will his game hold up until Wolf is ready. Is pay Tkachuk $9M+ on a long term deal the way to win a championship. Lots of your impact guys may not be here in 2 years so you either load up and go now or wait it out and maybe try around the next group.

I don't think anybody said they were going to get a younger PPG center. That is you adding that spin. What we would want was the upside of getting one in the future from a blue chip prospect. Maybe they pan out, maybe they don't which is why you typically get a draft pick too. Just think about the impact centers that have been traded in the last 5-6 years and think about what the return was. Even the Brassard for Zib trade. In addition to that one and Eichel I can think of PLD for Laine + Roslovic, Johansson for Jones, heck even Kessler for 1st, Bonino (50 point C) and Luca Sbisa (1st round pedigree dman) when Kessler had a NMC and forced Van to trade him to only the Ducks. The offers here are lacking so there is no deal.

 

[blankall]

I'm glad that we both see that there is no trade to be made here because you don't have what it would take to make one happen. And it appears even if you did have the pieces, you wouldn't be willing to move them.

For a PPG center at the deadline your talking 1st and a top prospect at a minimum. Or 1st and roster player. When you're talking about a PPG center with term, they pretty much never get traded. You have Eichel that demanded a trade and was injured and forced his way out returning a 1st, 2nd, blue chip C prospect in Krebs that only fell in his draft year due to injury and then Tuch that is a roster player that was a former 1st rounder himself on an incredible value contract in exchange for Eichel and a 3rd.

These are the postion players that every team wants and needs and typically the only way to get them is to draft them or buy them in free agency. The Flames don't have what the Jets would need because you don't have that blue chip prospect that we would covet in a position of need. 1st is a 1st but we don't want Left D and we don't want Left wing and we don't want someone eating up more cap than Scheif that will make it difficult for us to ink PLD to a big money deal.

Even Tkachuk has a $9M qualifying offer this offseason so I wouldn't want him.

The Flames are an aging team that needs to win now so in that sense I get that Scheif would be a fit for you. Markstorm 32, Tavev 32, Backlund 32, Lucic 33, Coleman 30, Gaudreau same age as Scheif, Lindholm is 27, Monahan is 27. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. If you want a cup you need to ride Markstrom to it and as he enters his mid 30s will his game hold up until Wolf is ready. Is pay Tkachuk $9M+ on a long term deal the way to win a championship. Lots of your impact guys may not be here in 2 years so you either load up and go now or wait it out and maybe try around the next group.

I don't think anybody said they were going to get a younger PPG center. That is you adding that spin. What we would want was the upside of getting one in the future from a blue chip prospect. Maybe they pan out, maybe they don't which is why you typically get a draft pick too. Just think about the impact centers that have been traded in the last 5-6 years and think about what the return was. Even the Brassard for Zib trade. In addition to that one and Eichel I can think of PLD for Laine + Roslovic, Johansson for Jones, heck even Kessler for 1st, Bonino (50 point C) and Luca Sbisa (1st round pedigree dman) when Kessler had a NMC and forced Van to trade him to only the Ducks. The offers here are lacking so there is no deal.

PLD/Laine involved two younger players both looking for a change of scenery. Johansen was traded when he was 23, that's not relevant.

The Zibanejad is a great example of what not to do.

The Kesler trade is probably the best example. Kesler was seen as a very special player. Sbisa was, however, in no way a projected #1 d-man. Bonino was a former late round draft pick who'd managed to play well post draft, but was already a known quantity. His scouting projected him to be mid-line journey man type player, which was what he was.

If in 2 years, Pelletier doesn't progress, then yes the Flames would be more likely to trade him. That's more comparable to the Bonino/Sbisa types. You have a known quantity, with a lower ceiling. Teams are definitely more likely to move those players. For example, Monahan and Dube would be far more easily moved than Pelletier.