Confirmed with Link: [EDM/BUF] McLeod + Tullio for Matt Savoie

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

If people hate on McLeod for being soft I wonder what they think about the rest of the team right now.

 

[bucks_oil]

C'mon. McLeod offers much more than advanced defensive stats. He was one of our best players at zone outs/entries, moved well with puck, with his speed, and could push D back with that speed or get to pucks on forcheck with that speed. The player scored commensurate with usage, was a good pk player here and had generally sound 200ft game.

My interjection isn't regarding Savoie, I too feel positive about him as a prospect but some of the reactions are not in isolation to this deal. Its that the team obtained Savoie, a prospect, even while showing that it has little deference to its prospects in losing Broberg, Holloway, Lavoie outright, and McLeod in trade. This is a team with a terrible record of development and this is the team now that has Savoie.

But I don't know why on the board theres a constant tendency to denounce what we have over what we're getting. This being a dynamic here for decades in which any player lost/traded gets the gears here and almost any incoming is constantly over valuated.

I agree with all of those strengths for McLeod. My tongue-in-cheek comment was making fun of advanced stats... in that McLeod's ability to transition through the neutral zone and gain zone entries translated to a lot of what I'll call "shot based ice-tilting metrics". That's why on paper he looks like he's good defensively, until you see him play and realize he's mostly just an elite level skater that can take the puck from A to B.

No shame in that, it makes him one of the better blue line to blue line players out there and he's going to carve a nice career out of it.

Once you start peeling back the onion, you find that defensively he's a bit of a quick puck hound (which helps on PK), but in terms of actual coverage and defensive awareness/acumen he's a bit lost. I mean if you compare him to say Todd Marchant or Cogliano, he lacks that extra defensive awareness and jam that made them so difficult to play against. Similarly on offense he can gain the zone, control the perimeter and occasionally shit-disturb on the forecheck, but once he's got the puck, driving the net or threading a penetrating pass... those are not really strengths.

Anyway... I was on record with my concerns (or rather, sober awareness of his limitations) prior to the trade. Thus thrilled to have Savoie in exchange for a guy who wouldn't really have been part of my plans anyway. Savoie may hit or he may not, but all signs to date have been pretty positive... that was my only main point.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I agree with all of those strengths for McLeod. My tongue-in-cheek comment was making fun of advanced stats... in that McLeod's ability to transition through the neutral zone and gain zone entries translated to a lot of what I'll call "shot based ice-tilting metrics". That's why on paper he looks like he's good defensively, until you see him play and realize he's mostly just an elite level skater that can take the puck from A to B.

No shame in that, it makes him one of the better blue line to blue line players out there and he's going to carve a nice career out of it.

Once you start peeling back the onion, you find that defensively he's a bit of a quick puck hound (which helps on PK), but in terms of actual coverage and defensive awareness/acumen he's a bit lost. I mean if you compare him to say Todd Marchant or Cogliano, he lacks that extra defensive awareness and jam that made them so difficult to play against. Similarly on offense he can gain the zone, control the perimeter and occasionally shit-disturb on the forecheck, but once he's got the puck, driving the net or threading a penetrating pass... those are not really strengths.

Anyway... I was on record with my concerns (or rather, sober awareness of his limitations) prior to the trade. Thus thrilled to have Savoie in exchange for a guy who wouldn't really have been part of my plans anyway. Savoie may hit or he may not, but all signs to date have been pretty positive... that was my only main point.

Todd Marchant was a comparable I was considering. Very similar players but needs to be understood that the team Marchant played on here was more of a hardwork and cover identity club. That club wasn't cheating or expecting a lot of goals. They were very focused on preventing them and had Cujo so that its a ton easier to spill blood and prevent goals when you've got a master in net. Its harder to do it when you have weak goaltending and defensive efforts tend not to be always rewarded.

I don't agree with you ownzone coverage. McLeod of course covered a lot with his speed and used his stick effectively to increase wingspan and be in passing lanes and interfering up high. I think he was consummate pk player, and while still young, and that skillset tends to get better with experience.

A major difference in the orgs is that the former Oilers org never would have devalued a Todd Marchant. But this one would consider the contributions of McLeod or Foegele as next to nothing.

Yeah I'm happy to have Savoie as well. Wish it was somebody else going the other way and theres never guarantees of course the prospect will be a player. McLeod will have a long career in the NHL. He checks so many boxes he's always going to have roles.

 

[bucks_oil]

Todd Marchant was a comparable I was considering. Very similar players but needs to be understood that the team Marchant played on here was more of a hardwork and cover identity club. That club wasn't cheating or expecting a lot of goals. They were very focused on preventing them and had Cujo so that its a ton easier to spill blood and prevent goals when you've got a master in net. Its harder to do it when you have weak goaltending and defensive efforts tend not to be always rewarded.

I don't agree with you ownzone coverage. McLeod of course covered a lot with his speed and used his stick effectively to increase wingspan and be in passing lanes and interfering up high. I think he was consummate pk player, and while still young, and that skillset tends to get better with experience.

A major difference in the orgs is that the former Oilers org never would have devalued a Todd Marchant. But this one would consider the contributions of McLeod or Foegele as next to nothing.

Yeah I'm happy to have Savoie as well. Wish it was somebody else going the other way and theres never guarantees of course the prospect will be a player. McLeod will have a long career in the NHL. He checks so many boxes he's always going to have roles.

Yeah... we can agree to disagree on McLeod.

To me "puck hound" and "strong defensively" are not synonymous. I see the same strengths with you... active stick, quick on the puck... those are the things that made him a very good PKer, when you could say "ok McLeod, this is the role... you stand here and when it comes your way, strike and try and get a stick on it... then come back to this position". It becomes a quite static job were a quick first step is important...

However to be "strong defensively" in my book you've got to be able to read plays as they develop, be aware of back-door passes before they happen and generally have your head on a swivel.

McLeod was the consummate puck-fixated, puck-hound. He NEVER had his head on a swivel and would often pull himself out of position chasing a puck. That's why we had to trade for Henrique so we could actually have a center on the third line. McLeod to me was way better suited to being a winger where his defensive shortcomings would be more masked.

If you compared McLeod to say, Holloway for example... you have a kid who has far less experience, but you can tell he's been well trained defensively, understands how to anticipate plays and doesn't just act like a moth to the light when the puck is concerned. It's a real shame we let him go IMO.

One way or another, we are missing the speed that Holloway and McLeod brought... on that I agree. Skinner has been a huge disappointment so far.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yeah... we can agree to disagree on McLeod.

To me "puck hound" and "strong defensively" are not synonymous. I see the same strengths with you... active stick, quick on the puck... those are the things that made him a very good PKer, when you could say "ok McLeod, this is the role... you stand here and when it comes your way, strike and try and get a stick on it... then come back to this position". It becomes a quite static job were a quick first step is important...

However to be "strong defensively" in my book you've got to be able to read plays as they develop, be aware of back-door passes before they happen and generally have your head on a swivel.

McLeod was the consummate puck-fixated, puck-hound. He NEVER had his head on a swivel and would often pull himself out of position chasing a puck. That's why we had to trade for Henrique so we could actually have a center on the third line. McLeod to me was way better suited to being a winger where his defensive shortcomings would be more masked.

If you compared McLeod to say, Holloway for example... you have a kid who has far less experience, but you can tell he's been well trained defensively, understands how to anticipate plays and doesn't just act like a moth to the light when the puck is concerned. It's a real shame we let him go IMO.

One way or another, we are missing the speed that Holloway and McLeod brought... on that I agree. Skinner has been a huge disappointment so far.

Excellent post. I get what you're saying now and well worded distinction in the bolded.

But I think the sentence following is distortion. Anytime "Never" is stated, It is. heh. McLeod had his moments where he showed anticipation and those where he didn't. It isn't as black and white as you state of course. But you're a goalie so you've got a good eye for what happens beyond the crease.

As per usual enjoyed the discussion.

 

[midnightcopper]

This team has had a penchant for putting time and resources into developing players and then giving up on them before they become full time difference makers.
This IMO is another example of that.

I have long felt (and it's not just in the McLeod issue), but they seem to have the pressure lifted on them when they go to a new team. It doesn't always end up successful for the players that do leave, but some do seem to enjoy more opportunities at playing time, and less unrealistic expectations. The pressure to perform on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl must be immense. I think Yamamoto was a casualty of this to some degree.

 

[McDNicks17]

I have long felt (and it's not just in the McLeod issue), but they seem to have the pressure lifted on them when they go to a new team. It doesn't always end up successful for the players that do leave, but some do seem to enjoy more opportunities at playing time, and less unrealistic expectations. The pressure to perform on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl must be immense. I think Yamamoto was a casualty of this to some degree.

Opportunity is a big one.

Like McLeod, for example, is second on the Sabres in forward 5v5 time. Add the otherworldly shooting percentages and it's obvious why he's "breaking out".

 

[North]

There is a big difference between JRS and the nhl. His size concerns me and others. One reason why buffalo had zero hesitation in trading him

They have an abundance of undersized forwards which is why they traded him.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Opportunity is a big one.

Like McLeod, for example, is second on the Sabres in forward 5v5 time. Add the otherworldly shooting percentages and it's obvious why he's "breaking out".

Well most of the guys getting quality 5on5 time here aren't quite delivering.

 

[NeverForget06]

If you and your girlfriend break up and after that you are single and she is dating a firefighter you will feel bad and have regrets. If you end up with a new hottie then you won't care

So far skinner/henrique/arviddson are not a new hottie

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I have long felt (and it's not just in the McLeod issue), but they seem to have the pressure lifted on them when they go to a new team. It doesn't always end up successful for the players that do leave, but some do seem to enjoy more opportunities at playing time, and less unrealistic expectations. The pressure to perform on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl must be immense. I think Yamamoto was a casualty of this to some degree.

It can be hard to break onto teams expecting to be deep playoff contenders. Then add the extreme yo yo, highly volatile regular seasons in Edmonton which have cost two coaches their jobs in recent history. With extreme pressure to win within the organization and external, coaches on the brink fallback to veteran 'certainty' over inexperienced unknown and learning dips that come with young players.

It's said the NHL is not a development league. But that said strong, established organizations can insulate young players within their rosters to grow their game while mitigating the mistakes component. Easiest to do so with forwards, significantly harder to do so with defenseman in a more difficult, more unforgiving position, as with goaltending which is generally a long cook development path except for elite pedigree guys.

Oil largely have had a poor, unstructured and inconsistent, development approach which snuffed out when this team's erratic play led to major, sustained losing dips. Young players need opportunity and long rope by coaches and management to play through inconsistencies that inevitably happen when elevated to the best league and quality of competition in the world.

The McLeod trade was a good one to carve out cap savings and add a near ready pedigree prospect to this team's barren prospect pool. But it wasn't a slam dunk with McLeod at his age and development phase while an established NHL player still having latent potential. There's some risk that Savoie's small skill, some injury history won't manifest to his lofty draft projection. Both organization's are in different phases of their life cycle and this trade addressed their needs.

 

[FlameChampion]

I have long felt (and it's not just in the McLeod issue), but they seem to have the pressure lifted on them when they go to a new team. It doesn't always end up successful for the players that do leave, but some do seem to enjoy more opportunities at playing time, and less unrealistic expectations. The pressure to perform on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl must be immense. I think Yamamoto was a casualty of this to some degree.

I do think you’re right about the pressure. I think a lot of the pressure comes from McDavid himself and probably the team. I think the general fanbase and media are pretty easy on this team though unless things are really bad. Hard to know how much pressure Katz and ownership impart.

I don’t think this is a very loose group. I think it’s difficult for younger guys to fit in. I don’t think the imbalance in ice time helps.

I also think there is also a lot of standing around waiting for McDrai to do things because players are on edge a bit. I think when things aren’t going well there is a lot of frustration but when the team is winning, players are more chill and the group contributes more.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I have long felt (and it's not just in the McLeod issue), but they seem to have the pressure lifted on them when they go to a new team. It doesn't always end up successful for the players that do leave, but some do seem to enjoy more opportunities at playing time, and less unrealistic expectations. The pressure to perform on a team with McDavid and Draisaitl must be immense. I think Yamamoto was a casualty of this to some degree.

Interesting post but its very case by case and depending on personality it seems. Even Eberle started having trouble here playing on a team with generational talents instead of the former team.He even said several times pressure playing with McD made him feel like he was "screwing up all the time" Some players get hard on themselves. Others like Maroon here, playing on good teams is their buzz, they love it. Hyman as well until this season. Its the first year now where we're seeing pressure instead of joy on Hymans face. Not sure what that is. Generally I thnk you're right and then you add the rabid Canadian market thing. I remember reading some players that were struggling would read the comments about them online and my first thought was stop doing that immediately. Players should insulate themselves from that.

Was interesting seeing Peron again last night. I really enjoyed him as an Oiler but I think he didn't want to stay in Edmonton pressure too long.

 

[TheNumber4]

Shoulda been an Oilers for life.

 

[guymez]

I do think you’re right about the pressure. I think a lot of the pressure comes from McDavid himself and probably the team. I think the general fanbase and media are pretty easy on this team though unless things are really bad. Hard to know how much pressure Katz and ownership impart.

I don’t think this is a very loose group. I think it’s difficult for younger guys to fit in. I don’t think the imbalance in ice time helps.

I also think there is also a lot of standing around waiting for McDrai to do things because players are on edge a bit. I think when things aren’t going well there is a lot of frustration but when the team is winning, players are more chill and the group contributes more.

Its hard to quantify how difficult it can be to play in a fishbowl.

 

[MOGlLNY]

If people hate on McLeod for being soft I wonder what they think about the rest of the team right now.

I think I said earlier in this thread if you think McLeod is soft wait till you get a peak at Jeff Skinner and got torched for it lol

 

[TheNumber4]

If people hate on McLeod for being soft I wonder what they think about the rest of the team right now.

We were bottom 5 in hits last year I believe. And somehow that was put all on Mcleod's shoulders.

Listen to Knob talk about hitting. He doesn't give a shit about them. Showed in our playoffs too, remember when the team had to respond cause their hits were too low? Then Nurse and others came out swinging.

 

[guymez]

We were bottom 5 in hits last year I believe. And somehow that was put all on Mcleod's shoulders.

Listen to Knob talk about hitting. He doesn't give a shit about them. Showed in our playoffs too, remember when the team had to respond cause their hits were too low? Then Nurse and others came out swinging.

That is one thing about Knob that I absolutely do not care for.
This soft hockey that we are watching night in and night out lends itself to a team that doesnt get emotionally invested in the game often enough.

 

[Oilhawks]

I think I said earlier in this thread if you think McLeod is soft wait till you get a peak at Jeff Skinner and got torched for it lol

McLeod is soft as f***. Doesn't change anything.

I sincerely hope your team doesn't extend the futility streak this season. All the best!

 

[TheNumber4]

That is one thing about Knob that I absolutely do not care for.
This soft hockey that we are watching night in and night out lends itself to a team that doesnt get emotionally invested in the game often enough.

Woody always put a huge emphasis on hitting, but I wonder how much it took out of our team as the playoffs got deeper. I'm more so worried about weathering hits than hitting with abandon. I want to see other teams bounce off us (like Florida, Vegas, Minnie) or us able to escape hits with our speed and overwhelm (like Colorado). We were built kind of 50/50 last year speed and size but not the most elite in the League in either category. With the loss of speedsters and size on our roster this year it's not looking great.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I think I said earlier in this thread if you think McLeod is soft wait till you get a peak at Jeff Skinner and got torched for it lol

Honestly Skinner has been grittier and better defensively than I expected (grittier than McLeod was here fwiw). The problem is that he hasn't been scoring.

 

[TheNumber4]

Honestly Skinner has been grittier and better defensively than I expected (grittier than McLeod was here fwiw). The problem is that he hasn't been scoring.

Also doesn't skate or defend. Which I was fine with as long as he produced like the JSkinner he's always been during his career.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Honestly Skinner has been grittier and better defensively than I expected (grittier than McLeod was here fwiw). The problem is that he hasn't been scoring.

Interesting! Skinner when he’s engaged in the game, scoring and chirping is a fun player to watch. Unfortunately he turns it off and on like a switch

McLeod is soft as f***. Doesn't change anything.

I sincerely hope your team doesn't extend the futility streak this season. All the best!

Not something I’ve noticed just yet honestly.

 

[TB12]

Interesting! Skinner when he’s engaged in the game, scoring and chirping is a fun player to watch. Unfortunately he turns it off and on like a switch


Not something I’ve noticed just yet honestly.

Wait until when if you ever make the playoffs with McLeod. Great speed player that works in the regular season. Balls of a church mouse and absolutely zero ability to elevate in the playoffs. Wide turns, blowing snow, anything to avoid a hit or having to make a hit.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Wait until when if you ever make the playoffs with McLeod. Great speed player that works in the regular season. Balls of a church mouse and absolutely zero ability to elevate in the playoffs. Wide turns, blowing snow, anything to avoid a hit or having to make a hit.

That’s a problem I’ll love to have if it comes