Confirmed with Link: [EDM/BUF] McLeod + Tullio for Matt Savoie

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

If people hate on McLeod for being soft I wonder what they think about the rest of the team right now.

 

[bucks_oil]

C'mon. McLeod offers much more than advanced defensive stats. He was one of our best players at zone outs/entries, moved well with puck, with his speed, and could push D back with that speed or get to pucks on forcheck with that speed. The player scored commensurate with usage, was a good pk player here and had generally sound 200ft game.

My interjection isn't regarding Savoie, I too feel positive about him as a prospect but some of the reactions are not in isolation to this deal. Its that the team obtained Savoie, a prospect, even while showing that it has little deference to its prospects in losing Broberg, Holloway, Lavoie outright, and McLeod in trade. This is a team with a terrible record of development and this is the team now that has Savoie.

But I don't know why on the board theres a constant tendency to denounce what we have over what we're getting. This being a dynamic here for decades in which any player lost/traded gets the gears here and almost any incoming is constantly over valuated.

I agree with all of those strengths for McLeod. My tongue-in-cheek comment was making fun of advanced stats... in that McLeod's ability to transition through the neutral zone and gain zone entries translated to a lot of what I'll call "shot based ice-tilting metrics". That's why on paper he looks like he's good defensively, until you see him play and realize he's mostly just an elite level skater that can take the puck from A to B.

No shame in that, it makes him one of the better blue line to blue line players out there and he's going to carve a nice career out of it.

Once you start peeling back the onion, you find that defensively he's a bit of a quick puck hound (which helps on PK), but in terms of actual coverage and defensive awareness/acumen he's a bit lost. I mean if you compare him to say Todd Marchant or Cogliano, he lacks that extra defensive awareness and jam that made them so difficult to play against. Similarly on offense he can gain the zone, control the perimeter and occasionally shit-disturb on the forecheck, but once he's got the puck, driving the net or threading a penetrating pass... those are not really strengths.

Anyway... I was on record with my concerns (or rather, sober awareness of his limitations) prior to the trade. Thus thrilled to have Savoie in exchange for a guy who wouldn't really have been part of my plans anyway. Savoie may hit or he may not, but all signs to date have been pretty positive... that was my only main point.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I agree with all of those strengths for McLeod. My tongue-in-cheek comment was making fun of advanced stats... in that McLeod's ability to transition through the neutral zone and gain zone entries translated to a lot of what I'll call "shot based ice-tilting metrics". That's why on paper he looks like he's good defensively, until you see him play and realize he's mostly just an elite level skater that can take the puck from A to B.

No shame in that, it makes him one of the better blue line to blue line players out there and he's going to carve a nice career out of it.

Once you start peeling back the onion, you find that defensively he's a bit of a quick puck hound (which helps on PK), but in terms of actual coverage and defensive awareness/acumen he's a bit lost. I mean if you compare him to say Todd Marchant or Cogliano, he lacks that extra defensive awareness and jam that made them so difficult to play against. Similarly on offense he can gain the zone, control the perimeter and occasionally shit-disturb on the forecheck, but once he's got the puck, driving the net or threading a penetrating pass... those are not really strengths.

Anyway... I was on record with my concerns (or rather, sober awareness of his limitations) prior to the trade. Thus thrilled to have Savoie in exchange for a guy who wouldn't really have been part of my plans anyway. Savoie may hit or he may not, but all signs to date have been pretty positive... that was my only main point.

Todd Marchant was a comparable I was considering. Very similar players but needs to be understood that the team Marchant played on here was more of a hardwork and cover identity club. That club wasn't cheating or expecting a lot of goals. They were very focused on preventing them and had Cujo so that its a ton easier to spill blood and prevent goals when you've got a master in net. Its harder to do it when you have weak goaltending and defensive efforts tend not to be always rewarded.

I don't agree with you ownzone coverage. McLeod of course covered a lot with his speed and used his stick effectively to increase wingspan and be in passing lanes and interfering up high. I think he was consummate pk player, and while still young, and that skillset tends to get better with experience.

A major difference in the orgs is that the former Oilers org never would have devalued a Todd Marchant. But this one would consider the contributions of McLeod or Foegele as next to nothing.

Yeah I'm happy to have Savoie as well. Wish it was somebody else going the other way and theres never guarantees of course the prospect will be a player. McLeod will have a long career in the NHL. He checks so many boxes he's always going to have roles.

 

[bucks_oil]

Todd Marchant was a comparable I was considering. Very similar players but needs to be understood that the team Marchant played on here was more of a hardwork and cover identity club. That club wasn't cheating or expecting a lot of goals. They were very focused on preventing them and had Cujo so that its a ton easier to spill blood and prevent goals when you've got a master in net. Its harder to do it when you have weak goaltending and defensive efforts tend not to be always rewarded.

I don't agree with you ownzone coverage. McLeod of course covered a lot with his speed and used his stick effectively to increase wingspan and be in passing lanes and interfering up high. I think he was consummate pk player, and while still young, and that skillset tends to get better with experience.

A major difference in the orgs is that the former Oilers org never would have devalued a Todd Marchant. But this one would consider the contributions of McLeod or Foegele as next to nothing.

Yeah I'm happy to have Savoie as well. Wish it was somebody else going the other way and theres never guarantees of course the prospect will be a player. McLeod will have a long career in the NHL. He checks so many boxes he's always going to have roles.

Yeah... we can agree to disagree on McLeod.

To me "puck hound" and "strong defensively" are not synonymous. I see the same strengths with you... active stick, quick on the puck... those are the things that made him a very good PKer, when you could say "ok McLeod, this is the role... you stand here and when it comes your way, strike and try and get a stick on it... then come back to this position". It becomes a quite static job were a quick first step is important...

However to be "strong defensively" in my book you've got to be able to read plays as they develop, be aware of back-door passes before they happen and generally have your head on a swivel.

McLeod was the consummate puck-fixated, puck-hound. He NEVER had his head on a swivel and would often pull himself out of position chasing a puck. That's why we had to trade for Henrique so we could actually have a center on the third line. McLeod to me was way better suited to being a winger where his defensive shortcomings would be more masked.

If you compared McLeod to say, Holloway for example... you have a kid who has far less experience, but you can tell he's been well trained defensively, understands how to anticipate plays and doesn't just act like a moth to the light when the puck is concerned. It's a real shame we let him go IMO.

One way or another, we are missing the speed that Holloway and McLeod brought... on that I agree. Skinner has been a huge disappointment so far.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yeah... we can agree to disagree on McLeod.

To me "puck hound" and "strong defensively" are not synonymous. I see the same strengths with you... active stick, quick on the puck... those are the things that made him a very good PKer, when you could say "ok McLeod, this is the role... you stand here and when it comes your way, strike and try and get a stick on it... then come back to this position". It becomes a quite static job were a quick first step is important...

However to be "strong defensively" in my book you've got to be able to read plays as they develop, be aware of back-door passes before they happen and generally have your head on a swivel.

McLeod was the consummate puck-fixated, puck-hound. He NEVER had his head on a swivel and would often pull himself out of position chasing a puck. That's why we had to trade for Henrique so we could actually have a center on the third line. McLeod to me was way better suited to being a winger where his defensive shortcomings would be more masked.

If you compared McLeod to say, Holloway for example... you have a kid who has far less experience, but you can tell he's been well trained defensively, understands how to anticipate plays and doesn't just act like a moth to the light when the puck is concerned. It's a real shame we let him go IMO.

One way or another, we are missing the speed that Holloway and McLeod brought... on that I agree. Skinner has been a huge disappointment so far.

Excellent post. I get what you're saying now and well worded distinction in the bolded.

But I think the sentence following is distortion. Anytime "Never" is stated, It is. heh. McLeod had his moments where he showed anticipation and those where he didn't. It isn't as black and white as you state of course. But you're a goalie so you've got a good eye for what happens beyond the crease.

As per usual enjoyed the discussion.