GDT: ECQF: Game 2 - Toronto Maple Leafs vs Ottawa Senators, 7:30 p.m. EST | Back to the Future Edition

[jbeck5]

It’s not that teams are ‘gifted’ pp’s, it’s more that some teams commit so many more infractions than their opponents that you cannot call everything.

So in those cases, you will find that if one team commits 17 cross checking penalties and their opponent commits only 2 …. Both the cross checks will be called for one team and only 2-3 of the 17 will be called on the other team.

Teams take advantage of this

This is what the ducks did against Ottawa in 07 finals.

But ther is an argument that whistles get buried even more in the finals...and Ottawa didn't adjust.

The pizza line was getting obstructed all series...barely any hooking calls against Anaheim because they did it all game.

I just don't think that applies here..both teams were making soft penalties all over the ice....I just think they usually let the soft ones go.. I thought a couple were soft against Ottawa...maybe 4 were legit playoff penalties whereas 2 of them you would see not get called in other series.

 

[Korpse]

Like I said, you could argue everything the sens did was a penalty...though the stutzle one was soft as well as the Gaudette one...but they are by the book, penalties...

The problem lies with the fact the Leafs also committed way more than 2 "by the book" penalties...and they weren't called.

Plenty of times leaf players shoved sens players with both hands on their stick in cross checking fashion, but I wouldn't want the Leafs called for those...but then the sens were...so it's like "maybe the Leafs should have been called for those?"

Maybe I missed some of the more physical infractions committed by Toronto, there were more penalties to be called for sure. Officials established they were looking for certain types of infractions, Ottawa didn't adapt to that standard. It's a hard lesson to learn, hopefully they learn it quickly.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Huh? That wasn't my argument at all. Am I taking crazy pills?

I said if it was 6-2 in Ottawas favour, it would still be one sided, but would be closer to averages than 6-2 in Torontos favour.


What argument did you think I was making???? I'm very curious, so I can go back and improve in how I word things to not confused people.

You might be taking crazy pills. At any rate, it is something that you should be aware of.
I don't think you are making a real argument. Rather, you are complaining about the refereeing in the game and think that the refs should have called penalties that you wanted instead of the penalties that were called.

 

[Relapsing]

100%

I think any reasonable fan can agree with this. Doesn't make officiating one sided.

I think it was a bit of both - a bad standard was set early on, and the officiating was not equitably applied throughout the game.

What's done is done. The only thing that matters today is what happens tonight

 

[jbeck5]

You think Florida and Ottawa are the same calibre team because they had a similar amount of points in the regular season? Context my guy.

They have a sieve for a goalie and no elite talent. And don’t discount their inexperience. It’s already cost them one game and there’s no way all these young players turn it around by the time the series is over.

If this series is close, it’s because Toronto has choked and played horribly, not because Ottawa is a a real playoff threat.

I think you underestimate Ottawa...but that's typical of biased fans who don't pay attention to Ottawa.

It's almost as if every teams board after a loss blamed their team for having a bad game and not for Ottawa playing a good game.

It gets old eventually. Teams get better or worse. Ottawa got better. Your brain just hasn't adjusted yet. It's like money with inflation. You're probably living in 2020.

 

[jbeck5]

Maybe I missed some of the more physical infractions committed by Toronto, there were more penalties to be called for sure. Officials established they were looking for certain types of infractions, Ottawa didn't adapt to that standard. It's a hard lesson to learn, hopefully they learn it quickly.

Well, just by how I saw the contact on stutzle and Gaudette as weak,

I've named a few.

-Greig getting tripped is by definition a trip. No call.

-Stutzle first period took the puck across the Leafs blue line and two leaf players basically immediately wacked him across the hands and he lost the puck and looked at the refs wondering where the slashing call was.

And then on multiple occasions Chabot and Sanderson made a pass with a Leafs forechecker coming on to make a hit. Multiple times they passed it off and then curled away not to get hit only to have a late leaf player reach out to try to make contact on them... At least twice with both hands on their stick in cross checking fashion. One of them caused Sanderson or Chabot to fall to a knee. (I forget which one) Which is basically what stutzle did to tanev...reach with a half assed cross check that dropped him to 1 knee)

But I don't want to dwell on game 1. I just wanted to point that if penalties even out to regular season averages over the series, Ottawa is due to get a lot more PPs than Toronto the rest of the way. Interesting to see how that plays out.

 

[jbeck5]

What makes it unbiased? We just saw Toronto own them and that at least makes me thinking Toronto is the much better team more credible than what all the haters have to say.

You make it biased.

I'm not a leaf hater. I haven't hated a team in years. They don't have Tucker or Domi...they have skilled players.
.easy to like..

 

[jbeck5]

You might be taking crazy pills. At any rate, it is something that you should be aware of.
I don't think you are making a real argument. Rather, you are complaining about the refereeing in the game and think that the refs should have called penalties that you wanted instead of the penalties that were called.

Sorry, did you answer what you thought my argument was? Perhaps you're taking crazy pills. I may very well be.

But could you clarify what you thought my argument was?

 

[Leaf Fans]

I think you underestimate Ottawa...but that's typical of biased fans who don't pay attention to Ottawa.

It's almost as if every teams board after a loss blamed their team for having a bad game and not for Ottawa playing a good game.

It gets old eventually. Teams get better or worse. Ottawa got better. Your brain just hasn't adjusted yet. It's like money with inflation. You're probably living in 2020.

There are no unbiased fans. Being a fan means having a bias.

 

[jbeck5]

There are no unbiased fans. Being a fan means having a bias.

Not true.

I've seen unbiased sens and leaf fans in the past...

They argue against people that are too positive and argue against people that are too negative and provide a very legit take showing both good and bad.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Sorry, did you answer what you thought my argument was? Perhaps you're taking crazy pills. I may very well be.

But could you clarify what you thought my argument was?

I am not. I don't need them. It is just that you should be aware if you are. I suppose someone can be slipping them to you. It happens, but it is also doubtful.
Not really because as I mentioned a moment ago.
"I don't think you are making a real argument.
Rather, you are complaining about the refereeing in the game and think that the refs should have called penalties that you wanted instead of the penalties that were called."

 

[Leaf Fans]

Not true.

I've seen unbiased sens and leaf fans in the past...

They argue against people that are too positive and argue against people that are too negative and provide a very legit take showing both good and bad.

That doesn't mean they are unbiased. They are a fan and like one team over another, Certainly, there are civil fans.

 

[jbeck5]

I am not. I don't need them. It is just that you should be aware if you are. I suppose someone can be slipping them to you. It happens, but it is also doubtful.
Not really because as I mentioned a moment ago.
"I don't think you are making a real argument.
Rather, you are complaining about the refereeing in the game and think that the refs should have called penalties that you wanted instead of the penalties that were called."

It's not even about penalties that I want or don't want. It's about them not being called evenly. That's it.

But can we go back to what you thought my argument was when you said "So usually it's one sided in the Sens favour? Strange argument." How did you get that? Like I said, I want to avoid confusion in further discussions. Perhaps you can explain why you thought that was my argument when I never said such words?

English is my second language so I legitimately want to know how you got that from what I said.

 

[jbeck5]

That doesn't mean they are unbiased. They are a fan and like one team over another, Certainly, there are civil fans.

You can be a fan and still call it like it is without bias.

You may have bias in your emotions, but it doesn't mean you give off bias when speaking about a subject.

You can be a sens fan and admit Toronto is the more experienced team with more offensive weapons and the favourites in the series...I don't think I'm being biased when I say that. <Example

 

[Leaf Fans]

It's not even about penalties that I want or don't want. It's about them not being called evenly. That's it.

But can we go back to what you thought my argument was when you said "So usually it's one sided in the Sens favour? Strange argument." How did you get that? Like I said, I want to avoid confusion in further discussions. Perhaps you can explain why you thought that was my argument when I never said such words?"

English is my second language so I legitimately want to know how you got that from what I said.

They shouldn't call penaties evenly, the team hat commits more infractions should get more penalties. The ref should apply the same standered to each team though.
I arrived at that conclusion by your assessment of number of penalties drawn vs taken during the regular season, your application of the disreprency in game one, the projection of the data over a seven game series and the idea that you saw the Leafs take penaties that were not called.

 

[Leaf Fans]

You can be a fan and still call it like it is without bias.

You may have bias in your emotions, but it doesn't mean you give off bias when speaking about a subject.

You can be a sens fan and admit Toronto is the more experienced team with more offensive weapons and the favourites in the series...I don't think I'm being biased when I say that. <Example

While a person can occasionally set aside their bias, as a fan, it's not really possible to be completely unbiased. Your enthusiasm inherently influences your perspective.

 

[jbeck5]

They shouldn't call penaties evenly, the team hat commits more infractions should get more penalties. The ref should apply the same standered to each team though.
I arrived at that conclusion by your assessment of number of penalties drawn vs taken during the regular season, your application of the disreprency in game one, the projection of the data over a seven game series and the idea that you saw the Leafs take penaties that were not called.

I didn't mean evenly as in same amount of PPs...I meant what constitutes a pp, called evenly.

When the Leafs were cross checking with weak cross checks, they weren't called.

When the sens were cross checking with weak cross checks, they were called.

That's what I mean by calling them evenly.

That doesn't make sense to get "so Ottawa usually gets one sided officiating"

No...Ottawa usually draws more penalties than they commit with their style of play...that's all.

So if they both get back to their game, I would be expect more penalties to be called against Toronto going forward...and I was saying if things revert back to averages , you should see 8-9 more sens powerplays for the rest of the series.

Of course things don't necessarily revert back to average. It's just interesting information.

 

[Joe n]

Not true.

I've seen unbiased sens and leaf fans in the past...

They argue against people that are too positive and argue against people that are too negative and provide a very legit take showing both good and bad.

Don't think you understand the meaning of bias. Every single human is biased.

 

[jbeck5]

Granted, a person can and sometimes does

Yes, but they can also just stop being biased and start speaking more neutrally.

You know the biased posters....they're on both sides...some leaf fans can't say good things about Ottawa...some sens fans can't say good things about Toronto.

Those fans on both sides should be ignored...how can their opinion be taken seriously? I much rather listen to posters on both sides who have no problem talking about the good of other teams or the bad of their own teams.

There are very obvious distinctions between bias and non bias fans on hfboards. You see their colours right away.

 

[jbeck5]

Don't think you understand the meaning of bias. Every single human is biased.

If you mean bias as in your lifestyle and experiences shapes your opinion...yes, everyone has bias...but that's not the definition being used here...or at least I would think.

There's that bias, and then there's bias of always being pro A or always being negative to B. Not everyone has those biases.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I didn't mean evenly as in same amount of PPs...I meant what constitutes a pp, called evenly.

When the Leafs were cross checking with weak cross checks, they weren't called.

When the sens were cross checking with weak cross checks, they were called.

That's what I mean by calling them evenly.

That doesn't make sense to get "so Ottawa usually gets one sided officiating"

No...Ottawa usually draws more penalties than they commit with their style of play...that's all.

So if they both get back to their game, I would be expect more penalties to be called against Toronto going forward...and I was saying if things revert back to averages , you should see 8-9 more sens powerplays for the rest of the series.

Of course things don't necessarily revert back to average. It's just interesting information.

You only have a one game sample for playoff average. Besides, the Sens weren't called for all their "weak cross checks" anymore than the Leafs were. If their style of play is not to cross check than of course their style will help them.

 

[Just Rude]

Because plenty of neutral fans also saw it one sided. To blame sens fans for seeing it that way is crazy. Talk to the neutral fans.

And I'm not saying they weren't penalties...they were soft penalties...but penalties nonetheless.

The issue comes with the fact the Leafs also had soft penalties, but they weren't called.

Nylander's penalty was the softest of the night (and, for the record, yes, it was a penalty).

Your cross check a guy in the face, or high stick another guy in the face, or cross check another guy in the back, you're getting called. Why did the Sens get more penalties? They were undisciplined and, one could argue, dirty.

They'll learn. And they'll be better. If they're not, it will be a short series.

Oh, and "neutral fans", my ass.

 

[Relapsing]

I didn't mean evenly as in same amount of PPs...I meant what constitutes a pp, called evenly.

When the Leafs were cross checking with weak cross checks, they weren't called.

When the sens were cross checking with weak cross checks, they were called.

That's what I mean by calling them evenly.

That doesn't make sense to get "so Ottawa usually gets one sided officiating"

No...Ottawa usually draws more penalties than they commit with their style of play...that's all.

So if they both get back to their game, I would be expect more penalties to be called against Toronto going forward...and I was saying if things revert back to averages , you should see 8-9 more sens powerplays for the rest of the series.

Of course things don't necessarily revert back to average. It's just interesting information.

Equitably would be the better term to use here.

Evenly implies that there would be 1:1 calls.

 

[Madap]

I think you underestimate Ottawa...but that's typical of biased fans who don't pay attention to Ottawa.

It's almost as if every teams board after a loss blamed their team for having a bad game and not for Ottawa playing a good game.

It gets old eventually. Teams get better or worse. Ottawa got better. Your brain just hasn't adjusted yet. It's like money with inflation. You're probably living in 2020.

Can you tell me what you think Ottawa is better at?

Leafs have better forwards, defence, goaltending, game breaking talent, coaching, and they are much more experienced. What area do you disagree with there? Is Ottawa tougher? Maybe a bit but this ain’t the leafs of the past either.

Obviously anything can happen in hockey but it’s not biased to think that if both teams play to their best, Toronto should easily win the series.

 

[jbeck5]

Those aren't fans.

Yes they are. You can be an emotional fan, but rationally call it like it is.

I could be someone who is fully aware of how average Ottawa is...where they're above average...where they're below average...I can praise another team as much better than Ottawa...all while jumping up and down and celebrating if ever they won a cup.