TSN: Dreger: Detroit won't be swapping 1st, 2nd or a quality prospect for a rental

[BinCookin]

I believe atleast one quality roster player will have to go. So maybe at the very least they would take

Sheahan + XO/Turgeon (Turgy is going to be a stud) + Mrazek + 1st (2015) and we can keep the Larkin/Mantha and the 4th rounder. I think I read Yotes want centers and I'm not sure if they have any quality goalies in their system.

Ya I am just throwing out names etc. But i totally agree with our overall thesis here: Yandle is expensive... way too expensive.

 

[last_sd]

What was dion phaneuf traded for?

IIRC, it was Stajan, White and Hagman.

At the time,
Stajan was a young top 6 forward
Hagman was a vet top 6 forward
White was a top 4 D

I think that trade was similar to Thornton trade.
Bundle of OK roster players for a 'super star'.

Now a days GMs prefer picks and young players on ELC for cap purposes.

 

[Dotter]

an inconsistent 30/40 point Jack Johnson was traded for Jeff Carter and a 1st.

That's equivalent to Tatar/Mantha + 1st rounder. You'd have to imagine Yandle would be worth almost double that.

 

[LarKing]

an inconsistent 30/40 point Jack Johnson was traded for Jeff Carter and a 1st.

That's equivalent to Tatar/Mantha + 1st rounder. You'd have to imagine that Yandle would be worth almost double that.

Not true. Johnson + 1st was traded for Carter.

 

[last_sd]

an inconsistent 30/40 point Jack Johnson was traded for Jeff Carter and a 1st.

That's equivalent to Tatar/Mantha + 1st rounder. You'd have to imagine that Yandle would be worth almost double that.

I could be wrong but didn't Jeff Carter asked to be traded?
In the end, Yandle will cost too much and I will pass.

 

[Dotter]

I could be wrong but didn't Jeff Carter asked to be traded?
In the end, Yandle will cost too much and I will pass.

Yeah I guess that means their hands were tied and couldn't seek the return they really felt they deserved.

bad example.

 

[Sentinel]

Can we do this threeway trade:

To Pittsburgh: Jagr
To NJ: Jurco + Smith
To Detroit: Skuderi + pick

 

[InjuredChoker]

Can we do this threeway trade:

To Pittsburgh: Jagr
To NJ: Jurco + Smith
To Detroit: Skuderi + pick

why would we want scuderi? maybe the 2009 version but the current one isn't good.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

More so, why do we give up Jurco and Smith, both of whom are better than Scuderi?

 

[Sentinel]

I think Scuderi is a more competent shutdown defenseman than Smith.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think Scuderi is a more competent shutdown defenseman than Smith.

We don't need a shutdown defenseman. We need a puck mover.

 

[Dotter]

Not sure if Brent Burns plays defense anymore or if he's just the 4th forward in a torpedo system or what... but SJ gave up an explosive offensive right handed shot Devin Setoguchi (a guy who was known to step it up in the playoffs), Charlie Coyle (equivalent to Sheahan) and a 1st rounder.

Brent Burns never scored close to 60 points even playing forward.

So for comparison sake that would be Nyquist + Sheahan + 1st for Burns and a 2nd.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not sure if Brent Burns plays defense anymore or if he's just the 4th forward in a torpedo system or what... but SJ gave up an explosive offensive right handed shot Devin Setoguchi (a guy who was known to step it up in the playoffs), Charlie Coyle (equivalent to Sheahan) and a 1st rounder.

Brent Burns never scored close to 60 points even playing forward.

So for comparison sake that would be Nyquist + Sheahan + 1st for Burns and a 2nd.

Nyquist is not a comparable to Setoguchi. You are greatly overvaluing him.

 

[Frk It]

There's a million factors that go into these trades. Unless you guys are GM's, you aren't going to know the price of these hypotheticals. You're just spinning your tires.

 

[Dotter]

Nyquist is not a comparable to Setoguchi. You are greatly overvaluing him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 24 year old Setoguchi was coming off a 31 goal 65 point season and was proving to be a very good playoff performer before traded.

Whereas Nyquist has never put up 65 points and has been nothing less than a playoff disappointment.

You can't look at this from a hindsight 20/20 point of view. Going on the facts at the time, Setoguchi was an up-and-coming goal scorer and playoff performer with nice trade value.

What has Nyquist accomplished at the point of a young Seto's career when he was traded? Nyquist never scored 65 points and has been a playoff flop.

 

[Heaton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 24 year old Setoguchi was coming off a 31 goal 65 point season and was proving to be a very good playoff performer before traded.

Whereas Nyquist has never put up 65 points and has been nothing less than a playoff disappointment.

You can't look at this form a hindsight 20/20 point of view. Going on the facts at the time, Setoguchi was an up-and-coming goal scorer and playoff performer with nice trade value.

What has Nyquist done?

Nyquist has the better pedigree and track record. Setoguchi was another from the long list of Joe Thornton wingmen. This is also Nyquist's first full season.

 

[InjuredChoker]

5 things to watch: Tough four-game stretch could influence Red Wings' decision to trade or stand pat

 

[Dotter]

Nyquist has the better pedigree and track record. Setoguchi was another from the long list of Joe Thornton wingmen. This is also Nyquist's first full season.

When Nyquist scores 65 points in the NHL as a 24 year old... then we can start comparing pedigree. The facts remain, Seto had nice trade value and was a proven goal scorer and playoff performer around the time of the trade.

Given the fact that Seto scored 65 points as a 24 year old and has a proven track record in the playoffs (while Nyquist has been a PO flop), I think it is completely reasonable to call them even at this point in their young (24/25 yr old) careers.

Nyquist has put up respectable numbers in the regular season (not as good as Seto 65 point season), but has been known to go MIA when the playoffs begin.

 

[Heaton]

When Nyquist scores 65 points in the NHL as a 24 year old... then we can start comparing pedigree. The facts remain, Seto had nice trade value and was a proven goal scorer and playoff performer around the time of the trade.

Given the fact that Seto scored 65 points as a 24 year old and has a proven track record in the playoffs (while Nyquist has been a PO flop), I think it is completely reasonable to call them even at this point in their young (24/25 yr old) careers.

Nyquist has put up respectable numbers in the regular season (not as good as Seto 65 point season), but has been known to go MIA when the playoffs begin.

And then Seto had under 40pts the next season and only topped 40pts one time since. He has OK playoff numbers, but nothing great. Again, this is Nyquist's first full NHL season.

 

[Konnan511]

When Nyquist scores 65 points in the NHL as a 24 year old... then we can start comparing pedigree. The facts remain, Seto had nice trade value and was a proven goal scorer and playoff performer around the time of the trade.

Given the fact that Seto scored 65 points as a 24 year old and has a proven track record in the playoffs (while Nyquist has been a PO flop), I think it is completely reasonable to call them even at this point in their young (24/25 yr old) careers.

Nyquist has put up respectable numbers in the regular season (not as good as Seto 65 point season), but has been known to go MIA when the playoffs begin.

Nyquist put up 5 points in 14 games as a pre-rookie in the NHL. As a rookie he had zero points in 5 games. What are you even talking about? Can he at least play his first full season before you label him as a playoff anything?

 

[Dotter]

And then Seto had under 40pts the next season and only topped 40pts one time since. He has OK playoff numbers, but nothing great. Again, this is Nyquist's first full NHL season.

Which also decreases Nqyuist's value in comparison to someone more proven near the same age of their careers.

You're looking back at the stat sheet after Seto was traded to say "hey look, he only scored 40 points one time since". Can you name one GM that can look at the future stat sheet so they know how well the player will perform 4 years down the road?

Clearly your hindsight is 20/20 (thanks to stat archives). But if you really want to impress me, tell me exactly how many points Nyquist will score 4 years from now. Are you saying Nyquist is a 65+ point guy even though he never scored it? Are you saying he's a locked consistent 60+ point guy for the next 10 years?

The facts are the facts. When Seto was traded he scored 65 + 36 + 41

Nyquist only has 61 points in 97 games and 5 points in 23 playoff games.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

When Nyquist scores 65 points in the NHL as a 24 year old... then we can start comparing pedigree. The facts remain, Seto had nice trade value and was a proven goal scorer and playoff performer around the time of the trade.

Given the fact that Seto scored 65 points as a 24 year old and has a proven track record in the playoffs (while Nyquist has been a PO flop), I think it is completely reasonable to call them even at this point in their young (24/25 yr old) careers.

Nyquist has put up respectable numbers in the regular season (not as good as Seto 65 point season), but has been known to go MIA when the playoffs begin.

That is revisionist history, because he was not nearly as hyped up in that trade as you are making him. His numbers AFTER scoring 65 points (on a team that won the President's Trophy by the way) lowered his value in trades. He was not considered a 60 point player at that point in time.

 

[Heaton]

Which also decreases Nqyuist's value in comparison to someone more proven near the same age of their careers.

You're looking back at the stat sheet after Seto was traded to say "hey look, he only scored 40 points one time since". Can you name one GM that can look at the future stat sheet so they know how well the player will perform 4 years down the road?

Clearly your hindsight is 20/20 (thanks to stat archives). But if you really want to impress me, tell me exactly how many points Nyquist will score 4 years from now. Are you saying Nyquist is a 65+ point guy even though he never scored it? Are you saying he's a locked consistent 60+ point guy for the next 10 years?

The facts are the facts. When Seto was traded he scored 65 + 36 + 41

Nyquist only has 61 points in 97 games and 5 points in 23 playoff games.

But we know what Seto did after, so that's a fact. He regressed the next few years on SJ in the same situation. Nyquist's outburst last season was unprecedented and almost impossible to replicate. Unless Nyquist has a major injury, he'll have a better career. He'll hit 60 points multiple times.

 

[Dotter]

That is revisionist history, because he was not nearly as hyped up in that trade as you are making him. His numbers AFTER scoring 65 points (on a team that won the President's Trophy by the way) lowered his value in trades. He was not considered a 60 point player at that point in time.

Point taken. So if Holland is trading Nyquist, is he trading him as a potential 60+ guy they hope he can be, or the proven 45 point guy he is... which is essentially 8 more points than Seto scored when he was traded?

Still, those PO numbers are something of concern; 5 points in 23 games. You have to think that's going to decrease his value whereas Seto's playoff numbers were an asset.

Nyquist +8 points in the regular season / whopping 5 points in 23 games

Goochi -8 points in the regular season / .5 PPG in the playoffs before traded

At the end of the day, I think it is completely reasonable to call them equivalent players at the point of their (24/25 age) careers. Nyquist scored a few more points (since we're throwing Seto's 65 point season out the window), but the playoff record can't be disputed.

 

[Dotter]

But we know what Seto did after, so that's a fact. He regressed the next few years on SJ in the same situation. Nyquist's outburst last season was unprecedented and almost impossible to replicate. Unless Nyquist has a major injury, he'll have a better career. He'll hit 60 points multiple times.

The best arm chair GM's are the ones with the clearest hindsight 20/20 vision and an archived stat sheet at their immediate disposal.