Salary Cap: - Dr Dubas | Off Season Acquire List | Nurse (X), EP40, Robertson, the other Robertson | Page 26 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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Salary Cap: Dr Dubas | Off Season Acquire List | Nurse (X), EP40, Robertson, the other Robertson

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Kessel had 37 goals and 80 points to lead the leafs 2 seasons before he was traded to the Pens.... How is that worse than EP40, the next season he still leads the Leafs in points but drops due to the Leafs being absolute ass with Bozak as his center.

And the first season with the Pens he has an arguable Conn Smythe performance on his way to winning the cup. Jesus Christ.... Spewing that narrative be about how awful he was is straight laughable, and right up Steve Simmons alley.
 
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Duffy13 said:
Kessel had 37 goals and 80 points to lead the leafs 2 seasons before he was traded to the Pens.... How is that worse than EP40, the next season he still leads the Leafs in points but drops due to the Leafs being absolute ass with Bozak as his center.

And the first season with the Pens he has an arguable Conn Smythe performance on his way to winning the cup. Jesus Christ.... Spewing that narrative be about how awful he was is straight laughable, and right up Steve Simmons alley.
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It was a bad take, but it’s almost August. Give him a pass :laugh:
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
I don't think people remember how ghastly bad Kessel was at the end of his time with the Leafs and the start of his time with the Penguins. He dropped from a PPG player for 3 years to a 60 point player in 2014-2015, but what was more jarring was how he only had 20 points in 44 games while being a -30 in 2015 with the Leafs. He then didn't even hit 60 points with the Penguins in his first season and really didn't hit his stride until HBK was put together very later in 2016, he only had 21 points in 37 games with the Penguins in 2015. In the calendar year 2015, he finished with 41 points in 81 games.

I think EP has struggled for longer than Kessel did, but I think Kessel at his worst was far worse than EP. Kessel had some major question marks about whether he was just falling off or if he just needed a change of scenery, and it took until he clicked with HBK in early 2016 for him to really break out of that funk. EP may just be a 50 point 2-way 2C, but that's significantly better than what Kessel was when the Penguins acquired him.
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Wasn't '15 the lowest scoring year in the cap era? Benn led the league with 87 points. 60 isn't a disaster in that context.

Kessel was seen as a frustrated star, not a reclamation project.
 
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Duffy13 said:
Kessel was still Toronto's best player and leading scorer the last 2 years he was there. It wasn't Kessel falling off a cliff, but the leafs having Bozak, Kadri, Santorelli, and Komorov as their starting centers. The Leafs went from 3rd in their division to 6th then 7th before Kessel was run out of town on a massive hit job by idiot Steve Simmons, and the rest of the Toronto sports reporting morons.

You make it sound like Kessel was Toronto's worst player when that team was absolute shit and he was actually their best player.
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I genuinely don't think some of you can read on this website.

I never said that Kessel struggled for years with Toronto or that he was a terrible player for them. I said that he was awful to end the 2014-2015 season with the Leafs and then continued to struggle with the Penguins in the 2015-2016 season until HBK was put together. Kessel was a great player for years for Toronto, he was a PPG player from 2011-2014 and even maintained his PPG form in the first half of the 2014-2015 season. But he completely imploded in the second half of the 2014-2015 season and continued to not be good when the Penguins first got him. It wasn't until HBK was put together that Kessel really returned to form.

Kessel was awful in a very specific sample size being mentioned in the 2015 calendar year, with his time in Toronto being especially awful in 2015. That doesn't mean he was awful before 2015 with Toronto or after 2015 with Pittsburgh, I'm talking about specifically the 2015 calendar year.
 
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tom_servo said:
Wasn't '15 the lowest scoring year in the cap era? Benn led the league with 87 points. 60 isn't a disaster in that context.

Kessel was seen as a frustrated star, not a reclamation project.
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60 points wasn't a disaster, but finishing the second half of the season with 20 points in 44 games while being a -30 after January 1st was the disaster part.

Granted his bad 2015 with the Penguins was in major part due to Mike Johnston, but I'd also pretty argue that 21 points in 37 games is still pretty poor for how elite of an offensive player Kessel was in the previous years. It wasn't until Sullivan took over and Kessel played with HBK for him to really hit his stride, which is when he was nearly a PPG player in the second half of that season (38 points in 45 games).

The overall point though is that I think Kessel also had some major question marks when he was acquired, and while EP's question marks are larger, I think acquiring EP is similar to acquiring Kessel in 2016. You're getting an expensive prime aged difference maker for a pretty low cost and you're hoping you can get him to return to form. That said, EP is the riskier target because he has larger issues. Kessel's issues were purely needing a change of scenery, while EP both needs a change of scenery while also has some concerns about his healthy.
 
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Koivunsons said:
I mean the Penguins front office literally got into a screaming match on the draft floor in view of everyone about acquiring Phil Kessel lol.
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That just shows how controversial the idea was with trading for him. People acting like Kessel is nothing like EP and there weren't major red flags about acquiring him are just rewriting history based on how good he was for the Penguins.

At the time of the trade, he was coming off a terrible second half of the season with the Leafs, had a massive cap hit with term (was 14th in the NHL in AAV) and had major questions about his work ethic to maintain his level of play into his 30s. I think EP's red flags are a bit more serious just with his injury issues and personal trauma, but to suggest they're nothing alike is just absurd.
 
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Kessel passed the eye test in Toronto except when totally slacking. His A game was still an A game. Does Elias Pettersson pass that test? People are confused about this guy's current talent level in a way they weren't with Kessel, IMO.
 
Big Friggin Dummy said:
If EP40 is a 50pt 2C, just skip the bullshit and keep Novak in that spot. He's like a 40-45pt 2C but he doesn't come with half a decade of an $11.5M AAV cap hit and all the shit EP40 has to work through in order to stabilize his game. /shrug

Nobody's come up with a compelling argument to go after EP40 tbh. :laugh: It's right on the cusp of "make a move to make a move" imo.
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If Novak replicates this season or even plays better I think a lot of you are gonna be uncomfortable when he asks for like 7-9 million dollars a year next off season.

Also in like 2 years 10 million is going to be the standard for a 60 point 2C.

Also the whole point in acquiring EP is to hope on rehabbing him. Then trading him when we suck.

It’s way less of a gamble and risk to acquire EP for like 2nds and prospects and maybe even Graves. Than it is to spend 4 unprotected 1sts and a 10-15 million dollar contract on Fantilli.
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
That just shows how controversial the idea was with trading for him. People acting like Kessel is nothing like EP and there weren't major red flags about acquiring him are just rewriting history based on how good he was for the Penguins.

At the time of the trade, he was coming off a terrible second half of the season with the Leafs, had a massive cap hit with term (was 14th in the NHL in AAV) and had major questions about his work ethic to maintain his level of play into his 30s. I think EP's red flags are a bit more serious just with his injury issues and personal trauma, but to suggest they're nothing alike is just absurd.
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I agree. Made the comparison several months ago.
 
I think the Kessel-EP40 comparison is flawed at best, but whatever. I don't have the energy or desire to really argue about it. :laugh:

Still not sure why we're trading for a guy who is pretty similar in effectiveness to Novak, just with a heinous contract attached for half a decade, and potentially unfixable issues as far as confidence and focus goes.

The goal for a team in this positions should be getting value for guys like Rust, Rakell and EK that you can either keep or flip for the early-to-mid 20s players you're hoping could be the next supporting cast to surround the inevitable top 5 picks this team's headed towards. Or pumping up the value of a guy like Novak by putting him at 2C and feeding him 2nd unit PP time imo so they can flip him at the TDL or during the season. There's pretty much zero need to go after EP40 in my mind. Does nothing in the here and now, or moving forward. /shrug
 
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Koivunsons

Salary Cap: Post in thread 'Dr Dubas Cap Thread: Offersheet shenanigans'

BobCole said:
I'm not sure what the above #s are referring to (scoring position on their team?). In any case, no amount of selective number crunching changes the fact that Kessel (when he came to the Pens) and EP are completely different players with vastly different contracts, not to mention the league environment is completely different, too.

The players and their situations just aren't comparable whatsoever.
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Not really.

Phil Kessel was 11.2% of the cap in 15-16.
EP is 11.1% of the cap in 26-27.

Kessel was viewed as a lazy player who you couldn't win with.
So is EP40.

You're just...
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Big Friggin Dummy said:
I think the Kessel-EP40 comparison is flawed at best, but whatever. I don't have the energy or desire to really argue about it. :laugh:

Still not sure why we're trading for a guy who is pretty similar in effectiveness to Novak, just with a heinous contract attached for half a decade, and potentially unfixable issues as far as confidence and focus goes.

The goal for a team in this positions should be getting value for guys like Rust, Rakell and EK that you can either keep or flip for the early-to-mid 20s players you're hoping could be the next supporting cast to surround the inevitable top 5 picks this team's headed towards. Or pumping up the value of a guy like Novak by putting him at 2C and feeding him 2nd unit PP time imo so they can flip him at the TDL or during the season. There's pretty much zero need to go after EP40 in my mind. Does nothing in the here and now, or moving forward. /shrug
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Same as it was with PLD.

You swap out Novak, some picks, and a prospect in hopes that EP40 builds up value to make you a more competitive team now and then you can trade him out in a few years if you want for a big time return.

The issue is EP40 isn't being traded anymore.
 
Big Friggin Dummy said:
I think the Kessel-EP40 comparison is flawed at best, but whatever. I don't have the energy or desire to really argue about it. :laugh:

Still not sure why we're trading for a guy who is pretty similar in effectiveness to Novak, just with a heinous contract attached for half a decade, and potentially unfixable issues as far as confidence and focus goes.

The goal for a team in this positions should be getting value for guys like Rust, Rakell and EK that you can either keep or flip for the early-to-mid 20s players you're hoping could be the next supporting cast to surround the inevitable top 5 picks this team's headed towards. Or pumping up the value of a guy like Novak by putting him at 2C and feeding him 2nd unit PP time imo so they can flip him at the TDL or during the season. There's pretty much zero need to go after EP40 in my mind. Does nothing in the here and now, or moving forward. /shrug
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Trading for EP fits this exact goal. Acquiring him for a low cost, build him up by playing him in the top-6 and selling him down the line for far more than you paid for him.
 
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