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Salary Cap: Dr Dubas Cap Thread: He wants the Nurse

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Empoleon8771 said:
Idk his scouting report doesn't make me think he's a guy that's getting bullied on the boards:

"A young pass-first two-way forward who puts in the hard work on the forecheck and showed a willingness to absorb contact and get to the net. An efficient scorer who produces from within the blue paint, often with a defender draped over him, and likes to shoot from distance. Has terrific hands which he uses to counter-act below-average skating.
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If he's not getting bullied by superior opposition, why has he put up bottom of the barrel 4th liner scoring rates at 5v5 the last two seasons despite being with Calgary's best? I'm not saying the bullying is happening on the boards either. Maybe he enters the zone a lot but good defenders simply steer him wide to non-dangerous areas and he doesn't have the speed to stop them. Maybe he is unable to force guys into bad passes and so the other team exits with ease. I've no idea. But the numbers scream there's a problem with him being able to play at that level because he's just not producing. At his current production rates, he's out of the league by the end of his current contract unless he learns to kill penalties. How is that happening if there's not a problem somewhere with him playing at that level of competition?

Also, could you in future put quotes from things into quotation marks rather than a quote of its own so they don't get lost when posts are quoted? Cos the quote doesn't come along when I hit the reply button, which is vexatious.
 
Peat said:
If he's not getting bullied by superior opposition, why has he put up bottom of the barrel 4th liner scoring rates at 5v5 the last two seasons despite being with Calgary's best? I'm not saying the bullying is happening on the boards either. Maybe he enters the zone a lot but good defenders simply steer him wide to non-dangerous areas and he doesn't have the speed to stop them. Maybe he is unable to force guys into bad passes and so the other team exits with ease. I've no idea. But the numbers scream there's a problem with him being able to play at that level because he's just not producing. At his current production rates, he's out of the league by the end of his current contract unless he learns to kill penalties. How is that happening if there's not a problem somewhere with him playing at that level of competition?

Also, could you in future put quotes from things into quotation marks rather than a quote of its own so they don't get lost when posts are quoted? Cos the quote doesn't come along when I hit the reply button, which is vexatious.
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I don't see how this question follows logically. There are a myriad of factors beyond player strength/physicality that could be impacting production rates.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I don't see how this question follows logically. There are a myriad of factors beyond player strength/physicality that could be impacting production rates.
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I never said I was looking at player strength/physicality. I am looking at overall quality of hockey play in his own right. The ability to hang with top end opposition without being carried. Perhaps the word bullied is misleading, but I simply mean that as dominance, not physical dominance. Darnell Nurse is a whole other athlete to Jake Guentzel but if you put Nurse out against a unit with Guentzel in, I'd expect Nurse to get bullied.
 
Peat said:
Imo, the first thing anything anyone has to possess to fit with Crosby at this point is the ability to deal with the talent and intensity with which other teams match up with Sid when Sid can only do so much to help at this point. Guys need to do a lot of winning their own possession, protecting their own possession, and so on, again really good players. If a player can't be above that bar then I don't care how well they mesh on paper, they're gonna get bullied.

Koivunen obviously doesn't get over the bar. Looking at Zary's results in Calgary, I don't think he does either. If he did, then he probably wouldn't have struggled so much.

As such, if we're getting Zary, I'd hope we'd be getting him for the third line and giving him a chance to work up from there if his play merits it. And I'd also hope that if one of Rakell or Rust leaves Sid's line, it's for a better player, not a worse, because that line is close enough to being a problem as is and if that line goes down the team probably follows. That's ideal for some but not for me.
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Couple things:
1. I think that assessment is spot on BUT I think it's important to note what with the lineups I and Emp presented, what like have is 3 guys (maybe 4?) that could push for time on Sid's LW - Zary, Chinakhov, McGroarty, and Soderblom. The others can take the other respective LW positions.
2. To me this trade would be more about getting the NHL version of Koivunen. We have him...let's make him a bit better. Hell, the trade could even be Koivunen+3rd for Zary and it would be a win for us.
3. I would expect Zary to be in performances similar to Beauvillier and Soderblom once they came here. Chinakhov performance might be asking a lot.
HandshakeLine said:
Bill Guerin looks like a racist 19th century cartoon of a Irishman.
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He looks like someone used AI to make a Norman Rockwell painting life like.
 
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TojoP said:
I've been told that teams like San Jose who tear it down to the studs don't win Cups anymore in the NHL.
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They didn't.

San Jose abruptly cratered in the 19-20 season.

Looking at the guys on that roster, here's how quickly they moved on from them

Meier - 22/23
Kane - 20/21
Burns - 21/22
Karlsson - 22/23
Couture - 23/24 (retires a Shark from the looks of it)
Hertl - 23/24
Labanc - 23/24

They finish 3rd from bottom in 19/20, and the following

26th - 20/21
22nd - 21/22
28th - 22/23
32nd - 23/24
32nd - 24/25
24th - this season

San Jose resisted the urge to make major moves for two and a bit seasons and when they finally gave up, it was as much about their guys having aged out of all hope as anything.

Tbh, if San Jose are a poster boy for anything, it's the idea that a stately collapse into dilapidation in which the team is slow to move players can work.
 
SEALBound said:
Couple things:
1. I think that assessment is spot on BUT I think it's important to note what with the lineups I and Emp presented, what like have is 3 guys (maybe 4?) that could push for time on Sid's LW - Zary, Chinakhov, McGroarty, and Soderblom. The others can take the other respective LW positions.
2. To me this trade would be more about getting the NHL version of Koivunen. We have him...let's make him a bit better. Hell, the trade could even be Koivunen+3rd for Zary and it would be a win for us.
3. I would expect Zary to be in performances similar to Beauvillier and Soderblom once they came here. Chinakhov performance might be asking a lot.

He looks like someone used AI to make a Norman Rockwell painting life like.
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Chinakhov is the only one there who I think has a snowball's chance in hell of sticking there and everyone else is a player who I think should be shielded from that sort of responsibility. I'd love to get Chinakhov involved on L1, it's the chance he's earned, but that's the key thing - he earned it. None of the others have.

Zary isn't the NHL version of Koivunen, he's currently just a better version of the AAAA player who'll be out the league shortly unless they take a jump. McGroarty, god knows what he is, but I'd like to see him stick in the lineup before I start talking about putting him with Sid. And Soderblom... intriguing guy, but has to prove he can make enough all round the ice impact to stick on a good line. Again, lets see him stick on the third first. Let guys develop in little leaps rather than taking gigantic bounds, something that appears to be part of what's gone wrong with Zary.

I'm not against getting Zary. But imo, the right thing do by the player is put him on L3 and see what happens. Which is kinda awkward as the middle six is getting crowded. Tbh, I can kinda see why Dubas was a little slow on bringing Geno back now.

Maybe the right thing to do is stick Geno with Sid. Move one of Rust and Rakell down to the 2nd line and let them insulate someone like Zary or McGroarty or Hayes or Howe or whoever; put Geno with the best playmaking and finishing talent.
 
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Peat said:
Chinakhov is the only one there who I think has a snowball's chance in hell of sticking there and everyone else is a player who I think should be shielded from that sort of responsibility. I'd love to get Chinakhov involved on L1, it's the chance he's earned, but that's the key thing - he earned it. None of the others have.

Zary isn't the NHL version of Koivunen, he's currently just a better version of the AAAA player who'll be out the league shortly unless they take a jump. McGroarty, god knows what he is, but I'd like to see him stick in the lineup before I start talking about putting him with Sid. And Soderblom... intriguing guy, but has to prove he can make enough all round the ice impact to stick on a good line. Again, lets see him stick on the third first. Let guys develop in little leaps rather than taking gigantic bounds, something that appears to be part of what's gone wrong with Zary.

I'm not against getting Zary. But imo, the right thing do by the player is put him on L3 and see what happens. Which is kinda awkward as the middle six is getting crowded. Tbh, I can kinda see why Dubas was a little slow on bringing Geno back now.

Maybe the right thing to do is stick Geno with Sid. Move one of Rust and Rakell down to the 2nd line and let them insulate someone like Zary or McGroarty or Hayes or Howe or whoever; put Geno with the best playmaking and finishing talent.
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One of the ways to grow and break is being given the opportunity to do so. That's what happened with Chinakhov. That's what happen with Soderblom. The job of the FO/scouts is to identify those guys who are stuck on the 3rd line but who could break out and become top 6 players if given the chance. So while I get the conservative stance of "get them on the 3rd line and see what happens" to reduce risk, that isn't how you find break out players and that's certainly not how they break out. Chinakhov basically got 2-3 games on the third line, likely due to unfamiliarity with the lines and system. Once he was comfortable, he was put in the top 6 and never looked back. Otherwise, we have to sign or trade for currently established top 6 players and pay high price tags.

If we are trading for Zary, it's with the hope that he becomes a top 6 wing. Then you can leave the bottom 6 slots open for McGroarty or Hayes, etc.

Worst case? He doesn't cut and you sell him at the TDL for a 2nd or 3rd, not unlike what we did with Beauvillier. If he doesn't work in the top 6 here, you trade him to someone that wants him in the third line position.
 
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