Confirmed with Link: Douglas Murray Traded To Pitt for 2013 2nd round and 2014 2nd/3rd conditional pick

[OrrNumber4]

Well I'm glad he chose to ignore the stats on Murray because he definitely wouldn't and shouldn't have given up that much for Murray if he's basing on stats. Although if he got Murray solely on heart and warrior-like mentality then Sharks fans can't really disagree because for all his faults, he's still a warrior and plays with a lot of heart.

I think the disconnect is that a lot of people remember Murray of 2006-2010. If that Murray had been traded for two seconds at this trade deadline, I would've wondered if DW could have gotten more.

What I like to maintain, is that Douglas Murray deserved to be traded. I never like it when organizations trade performing players to make way for inferior players who are simply cheaper or younger. I never even like it when teams sell off performing players as a "rebuilding" move (if the player wants to stay)...it sets a bad tone throughout the organization.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Pretty much. But his negatives far outweigh his positives. His extremely slow speed forced him to give up the blue-line too easily, and he couldn't get to any loose pucks which allowed the opposition to constantly cycle.



Don't forget that Vlasic has the 2nd best break-out pass on the team.

I can actually back up what I see with stats. But you keep on believing that Murray moves the puck better

 

[WantonAbandon]

actually he is.



he made a statement that with Murray/Morrow he chose to willfully ignore stats because of some malarkey about heart and huger.

That would be a fairly surprising admission from Shero. Do you have a link to this statement?

 

[WTFetus]

I can actually back up what I see with stats. But you keep on believing that Murray moves the puck better

You actually didn't back up your argument at all. I also already told you why your argument of Corsi and zone starts have nothing to do with Murray's break-out ability. And it's funny how you criticize people for using stats, yet you use it just as much.

Honestly, you're probably the only person on this board who thinks Murray is a great PKer, Demers sucks, and Vlasic has a great break-out pass.

 

[WantonAbandon]

You actually didn't back up your argument at all. I also already told you why your argument of Corsi and zone starts have nothing to do with Murray's break-out ability. And it's funny how you criticize people for using stats, yet you use it just as much.

Honestly, you're probably the only person on this board who thinks Murray is a great PKer, Demers sucks, and Vlasic has a great break-out pass.

Well other then saying I am right and you are wrong what else is there besides stats? Other than telling you what I saw. Then backing it up with possession stats along with other stats that acutally provide context to corsi and then telling you that Staurt is very productive with Vlasic but sucked with Murray, that Boyle is also far more productive with Vlasic then he is with Irwin, what else to you want? A signed affidavit from Scottie Bowman?

What I was saying about corsi is you can't use it by itself. It has to be combined with other stats to have meaning. Ideally you have to watch a player and use stats to back up what you believe you saw.

And yes Corsi in context does have a relation to a players breakout ability. Its supposed to be a measure of possession. That is why it exists in the first place the stat it is meant to be an improvement on doesn't measure this +/-. Obviously if a D can't move the puck out shots toward the net won't be generated well at least not towards the opponents net.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Oh and I almost forgot... I also told you that Boyle is far more productive with Vlasic than he is with Stuart... You could always see the results for yourself. Nothing is more simple than goals for per twenty

 

[WTFetus]

Well other then saying I am right and you are wrong what else is there besides stats? Other than telling you what I saw. Then backing it up with possession stats along with other stats that acutally provide context to corsi and then telling you that Staurt is very productive with Vlasic but sucked with Murray, that Boyle is also far more productive with Vlasic then he is with Irwin, what else to you want? A signed affidavit from Scottie Bowman?

Because like I said, those have nothing to do with Murray's break-out ability. Murray has horrible stats not because he can't pass, it's because he's so slow. He can't get to any loose pucks. When he actually got to a loose puck and had the time to pass, his break-outs were actually decent. Vlasic doesn't know how to do anything except throw it up the boards.
Not to mention you're avoiding the initial argument (maybe because you know you're wrong). Saying Vlasic has the 2nd best break-out pass on the team is ridiculous.
You say you have to watch the player, but making an argument like that makes it really hard to believe you watched a single Sharks game this season.

What I was saying about corsi is you can't use it by itself. It has to be combined with other stats to have meaning. Ideally you have to watch a player and use stats to back up what you believe you saw.

And yes Corsi in context does have a relation to a players breakout ability. Its supposed to be a measure of possession. That is why exists in the first place the stat it is meant to be an improvement on doesn't measure this +/-. Obviously if a D can't move the puck out shots toward the net won't be generated well at least not towards the opponents net.

See the above response. It's hilarious how you're saying things like "it has to be combined with other stats" yet you're using Corsi as the main definer of a person's break-out ability.

 

[ChubbChubby]

Vlasic cannot hit a pass on the tape. He pretty much only relies on the board to move the puck down the ice. I don't know what game you're watching, but I don't understand how anyone can think Vlasic has a good pass, let alone one even close to Demers or Braun.

Is he a better passer than Murray? They are both terrible at it, so does it really matter? Point is both Vlasic and Murray suck at passing, but at least Vlasic can skate and is sound defensively.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Anyway I found the quote

“Analytics doesn’t come in to this for me,†said Shero, per Sportsnet’s Chris Johnston. “You can’t measure the heart, the character, the fit on your team you’re looking for.â€

 

[WantonAbandon]

Vlasic cannot hit a pass on the tape. He pretty much only relies on the board to move the puck down the ice. I don't know what game you're watching, but I don't understand how anyone can think Vlasic has a good pass, let alone one even close to Demers or Braun.

Is he a better passer than Murray? They are both terrible at it, so does it really matter? Point is both Vlasic and Murray suck at passing, but at least Vlasic can skate and is sound defensively.

Its by watching the game. As far as Braun goes if he can't skate the puck out he struggles badly. Demers can't seem to push the play against soft comp while taking stupid gambles. He is more creative in the o zone then Vlasic is however.

Anyway if Vlasic were as bad as you all think the Sharks should probably trade him right now. There would be a lot of takers and they could get a great return for him.

 

[WTFetus]

Anyway I found the quote

“Analytics doesn’t come in to this for me,” said Shero, per Sportsnet’s Chris Johnston. “You can’t measure the heart, the character, the fit on your team you’re looking for.”

You can thank Drew Remenda for that. He practically said "Murray sucks, but he battles."

Anyway if Vlasic were as bad as you all think the Sharks should probably trade him right now. There would be a lot of takers and they could get a great return for him.

Way to put words in my mouth. I never said Vlasic sucked. I said Vlasic was bad at break-outs, which he is. There are plenty of other things he's great at.
And honestly, I wouldn't be against trading Vlasic if the return was great. I don't see DW doing that though considering he just re-signed him to a long-term deal.

 

[WantonAbandon]

You can thank Drew Remenda for that. He practically said "Murray sucks, but he battles."



Way to put words in my mouth. I never said Vlasic sucked. I said Vlasic was bad at break-outs, which he is. There are plenty of other things he's great at.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but the way the league has evolved the most important thing about a defensman is the break out pass. They probably could get a top fifteen first for him and a prospect.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Because like I said, those have nothing to do with Murray's break-out ability. Murray has horrible stats not because he can't pass, it's because he's so slow. He can't get to any loose pucks. When he actually got to a loose puck and had the time to pass, his break-outs were actually decent. Vlasic doesn't know how to do anything except throw it up the boards.
Not to mention you're avoiding the initial argument (maybe because you know you're wrong). Saying Vlasic has the 2nd best break-out pass on the team is ridiculous.
You say you have to watch the player, but making an argument like that makes it really hard to believe you watched a single Sharks game this season.



See the above response. It's hilarious how you're saying things like "it has to be combined with other stats" yet you're using Corsi as the main definer of a person's break-out ability.

Well no its corsi combined zone starts, qual comp, pdo to test sustainability, and performance output with various team mates and how those team mates do while not playing with said player. But all that should simply be used to reinforce what you see.

And yes a Ds breakout ability will have an effect on his advanced stats. And with the blue line the Sharks are icing it is not ridicoulous to say Vlasic has the second best breakout pass on the team. That isn't saying much. And the Sharks are 28th in goals probably because of that

 

[WantonAbandon]

Oh and why you are looking at advanced stats you don't want to overlook the scoresheet stats either

 

[WantonAbandon]

To knock down advanced stats for a moment, I think a solid argument could be made that all you really need is scoresheet stats, shots per twenty, goals for twenty, and PDO

 

[ChubbChubby]

Wait, you think Vlasic has the second best breakout pass on the team? On a team with Boyle, Burns, Demers, and Braun?

I bet no one else on the boards shares your opinion.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Wait, you think Vlasic has the second best breakout pass on the team? On a team with Boyle, Burns, Demers, and Braun?

I bet no one else on the boards shares your opinion.

Oh absolutely and that again that isn't really saying much.

Boyle is obviously number 1

Burns is great at skating the puck out of the zone, but as defenses have gotten faster that option isn't as available as it used to be. When Burns can't skate the puck out his go to move is a turnover. The Sharks don't have him playing at forward for giggles.

Demers... The guy has trouble consistently cracking the roster. Its because he has trouble pushing the play against weak comp despite making stupid gambles. Now if you paired him with Vlasic he would obviously do better but the Sharks aren't about to break up Stuart and Vlasic

Braun... Pretty much the same thing as Burns. Its funny but like Demers Brauns best hockey was when he was paired with Vlasic

Oh but sure the Sharks blue line are puck moving dynamos that must be why they are 28th goals

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Oh absolutely and that again that isn't really saying much.

Boyle is obviously number 1

Burns is great at skating the puck out of the zone, but as defenses have gotten faster that option isn't as available as it used to be. When Burns can't skate the puck out his go to move is a turnover. The Sharks don't have him playing at forward for giggles.

Demers... The guy has trouble consistently cracking the roster. Its because he has trouble pushing the play against weak comp despite making stupid gambles. Now if you paired him with Vlasic he would obviously do better but the Sharks aren't about to break up Stuart and Vlasic

Braun... Pretty much the same thing as Burns. Its funny but like Demers Brauns best hockey was when he was paired with Vlasic

Oh but sure the Sharks blue line are puck moving dynamos that must be why they are 28th goals

Did you not watch the last game?

 

[WTFetus]

Did you not watch the last game?

Or the 10 or so games before that.

Braun... Pretty much the same thing as Burns. Its funny but like Demers Brauns best hockey was when he was paired with Vlasic

Did you not watch the LA game or the games before that either? Vlasic and Braun were not good together.

 

[Juxtaposer]

With this team's current defensemen, Vlasic-Stuart is the worst possible combination of players we could ice. I'd rather ice Irwin-Demers.

 

[ChubbChubby]

Oh absolutely and that again that isn't really saying much.

Boyle is obviously number 1

Burns is great at skating the puck out of the zone, but as defenses have gotten faster that option isn't as available as it used to be. When Burns can't skate the puck out his go to move is a turnover. The Sharks don't have him playing at forward for giggles.

Demers... The guy has trouble consistently cracking the roster. Its because he has trouble pushing the play against weak comp despite making stupid gambles. Now if you paired him with Vlasic he would obviously do better but the Sharks aren't about to break up Stuart and Vlasic

Braun... Pretty much the same thing as Burns. Its funny but like Demers Brauns best hockey was when he was paired with Vlasic

Oh but sure the Sharks blue line are puck moving dynamos that must be why they are 28th goals

Sounds like you haven't been watching the last dozen games because your D-pairings are all kinds of messed up.

 

[freddypuck]

Oh absolutely and that again that isn't really saying much.

Boyle is obviously number 1

Burns is great at skating the puck out of the zone, but as defenses have gotten faster that option isn't as available as it used to be. When Burns can't skate the puck out his go to move is a turnover. The Sharks don't have him playing at forward for giggles.

Demers... The guy has trouble consistently cracking the roster. Its because he has trouble pushing the play against weak comp despite making stupid gambles. Now if you paired him with Vlasic he would obviously do better but the Sharks aren't about to break up Stuart and Vlasic

Braun... Pretty much the same thing as Burns. Its funny but like Demers Brauns best hockey was when he was paired with Vlasic

Oh but sure the Sharks blue line are puck moving dynamos that must be why they are 28th goals

Dude are you for real what games have you watched

 

[spintheblackcircle]

stop the personal comments.

 

[Crafton]

oh i agree. as a fan of both teams, i'm relieved he is off this blueline. as for the pens side, well that's dormant as i seethe in my rage over seeing my favorite prospect dealt for Brenden ****in' Morrow.

Ha ha.

Honestly though .. its hard to feel bad for a team which has Crosby and Malkin on it. I mean come on.

replying to let you know that i don't feel so mad anymore.

 

[Brent Burns]

Murray looks weird in a Pens uniform. Teal suited him