Speculation: Does MLSE dictate how the team is *allowed* to behave on the ice?

[Maple Leaf]

you cant have your minute eater players lack it all it is over for this team

 

[All Mod Cons]

No one's asking for dirty. Personally I'm just asking for self respect and standing up for oneself and teammates. How has no one on Florida paid a price yet for what Bennett did to Knies and Staal's elbow to the face of Marner? So that's just in the past now? I just don't get it. I'd never let that stuff go. Ever. Maybe that's what separates professionals from idiots like me but other teams seem to carry a grudge.

I'm asking for dirty.

 

[Menzinger]

Based on Keefe's comments, it would appear the players are the problem.

The Big 4 aren't going to respond, maybe they shouldn't, doesn't matter we know they aren't going to scrum and punch on their own accord.

The window dressing toughness decided to not do anything either. Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves.

The "Keefe is stopping the fighting" line always seemed to be a wee bit of projection of folks who don't like him as a coach just assuming he was involved. When in his history he's never been anti-fighting (ie seemed to want Dubas' to get guys like Clifford/Simmonds ect)

The problem i suppose is Keefe or Tre is they're going to have to spell it out clear as day to guys like Reaves or Bertuzzi why they're here...... (Especially Reaves).

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

its been a pretty interesting "trend" with Martin, Simmonds, Reaves, etc...

but I've been of the opinion that the "toughness" has to first and foremost has to come from the core 4.

People also shouldn't confuse "toughness" with being a fringe "big hitter/fighter".

Toughness is laying hits but also taking hits to make plays, going into dirty areas, out working opponents, winning puck/board battles, etc. I expect this from everyone on the Leafs not just Reaves.

The fancy BS hockey needs to effing die else Leafs are gonig to be the same old Joke again and again

Exactly. Your top players can't be absolute p***yes.

 

[Stephen]

The "Keefe is stopping the fighting" line always seemed to be a wee bit of projection of folks who don't like him as a coach just assuming he was involved. When in his history he's never been anti-fighting (ie seemed to want Dubas' to get guys like Clifford/Simmonds ect)

The problem i suppose is Keefe or Tre is they're going to have to spell it out clear as day to guys like Reaves or Bertuzzi why they're here...... (Especially Reaves).

I could see Keefe's messaging being unclear at times with the galaxy braining of line combinations but I'm having a hard time with how that room was thinking and feeling in the 1st and 2nd intermissions.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

The "Keefe is stopping the fighting" line always seemed to be a wee bit of projection of folks who don't like him as a coach just assuming he was involved. When in his history he's never been anti-fighting (ie seemed to want Dubas' to get guys like Clifford/Simmonds ect)

The problem i suppose is Keefe or Tre is they're going to have to spell it out clear as day to guys like Reaves or Bertuzzi why they're here...... (Especially Reaves).

I agree and I dislike Keefe. Every time the subject has ever come up he has always been pro-physicality and for good reason. It’s the players and something in that locker room that seems to prevent them from wanting to stick up for each other and it never changes regardless of which players who have a rep for gritty play we bring in. Something is just not right with this core

 

[Judas Tavares]

Based on Keefe's comments, it would appear the players are the problem.

The Big 4 aren't going to respond, maybe they shouldn't, doesn't matter we know they aren't going to scrum and punch on their own accord.

The window dressing toughness decided to not do anything either. Bertuzzi, Domi and Reaves.

The "Keefe is stopping the fighting" line always seemed to be a wee bit of projection of folks who don't like him as a coach just assuming he was involved. When in his history he's never been anti-fighting (ie seemed to want Dubas' to get guys like Clifford/Simmonds ect)

The problem i suppose is Keefe or Tre is they're going to have to spell it out clear as day to guys like Reaves or Bertuzzi why they're here...... (Especially Reaves).

Ya I have a hard time believing it is Keefe. I know Keefe is tied to Dubas thus there is a bit of a notion that he's automatically all skill and analytics. But to me, Keefe has constantly demanded some form of fight/pushback. We saw it first in the 24/7 series and heard it in his pressers.

Also as much as Reaves needed to do something, cause without that element, he's completely useless, I wanted a lot out of Bertuzzi there. Players won't challenge Reaves and the core 4 aren't going to muck it up. They haven't before and likely will never. Ya that's an issue, but the tradeoff is at least they are the most skilled players this org has ever seen.

So you need middle ground between a useless goon and the skilled stars. I think for once, they found that guy in Bertuzzi. Maybe we can give him a new team adjustment period cause that isn't always easy. And maybe this injury is worse than the team is letting on. I almost hope so. Cause he was really the guy that needed to challenge Marchand, maybe not to a fight, but to something.

If it truly is the team (mandate/country club aura), then that tells me even Wilson or Tkachuk would be neutered on this team then.

 

[myleafs]

Ridiculous. Tin foil hats and pushing the blame around. You think an exec is telling a player not to play aggressive and do his thing? People are tripping over each other to blame MLSE, Shanahan, the stick boy, Ballard, Tim Hortons...

Fans had this idea that Matt Martin was gonna come here and just punch people, throw hits every shift and be crowned the best power forward in the game. Before he was in Toronto he was the same, when he got to Toronto he was the same, when he left he was the same player.

Nick Ritchie is here! Finally a big power forward that can throw hits and fight. He never was that kind of player, but he'll be one here for sure... Look at his highlight package!

When Max Domi signed with the Leafs, so many people kept saying we finally got a tough player that will hit and fight! He never did any of those things. But because of his last name and the odd sucker punch highlight video, they made this idea in their mind that he was going to be Tie Domi.

Ryan Reaves was a useless player before he signed with Toronto, ousted from many teams for the exact problem we're seeing. He'll throw a hit sometimes, he'll fight sometimes. And then he'll be thrown aside.

So when all these players get unrealistic expectations about their game and who they are, people are quick to blame everyone else because there's no way they could have been wrong about who they actually were as hockey players.

I mean Tre came in and pretty much told us all he brought in the guys he did because he values snot, aggression etc so what else are we supposed to think? Players who had a reputation no matter how small regarding snot etc seem to come to Toronto and abandon that part of their game....why is that? I watched Bert last yr in the playoffs....nobody is going to mistake him for Darcy Tucker but he definitely showed way more "snot" on the Bruins than with the Leafs. Same with Domi...I watched him jump a guy who hit Kane but in Toronto....nothing. I watched Foligno try to stick up for a teammate and Keefe tell heim he would prefer he do nothing about it. I watched Muzzin throw huge hits his first game and after that he would do it but much more sporadicly, I watched Reaves in his first 2 games throw thunderous hits and fight and since then he has been a puusy cat. Im really starting to put the blame on Keefe for our soft timid ways.

 

[SprDaVE]

I mean Tre came in and pretty much told us all he brought in the guys he did because he values snot, aggression etc so what else are we supposed to think? Players who had a reputation no matter how small regarding snot etc seem to come to Toronto and abandon that part of their game....why is that? I watched Bert last yr in the playoffs....nobody is going to mistake him for Darcy Tucker but he definitely showed way more "snot" on the Bruins than with the Leafs. Same with Domi...I watched him jump a guy who hit Kane but in Toronto....nothing. I watched Foligno try to stick up for a teammate and Keefe tell heim he would prefer he do nothing about it. I watched Muzzin throw huge hits his first game and after that he would do it but much more sporadicly, I watched Reaves in his first 2 games throw thunderous hits and fight and since then he has been a puusy cat. Im really starting to put the blame on Keefe for our soft timid ways.

Domi does that stuff once in a blue moon. He doesn't hit or really take out players. He has done it before, sure... but you think he did it every other game? No. Bertuzzi has never been much of a hitter or fighter, typically just greasy. Always has been. He's just like Bunting.

New players join a new team and have adrenaline, and it eventually settles into what they usually are. Muzzin was always the same kind of player. Reaves is always that player and Rangers and Wild fans will tell you how frustrating he disappears in that aspect. Simmonds did more with less.... and he even agreed to stick around despite being waived and rarely played. Foligno was injured 80% of his time here, how is that on Keefe?

Players don't abandon that part of their game. I dunno why the coach needs to be blamed for the teams lack of response all the time. Treliving deserves a lot more heat for not addressing that part of the team in greater detail. Instead he prioritzed a terrible enforcer and some solid 1 year players to round out the team.

 

[myleafs]

The "Keefe is stopping the fighting" line always seemed to be a wee bit of projection of folks who don't like him as a coach just assuming he was involved. When in his history he's never been anti-fighting (ie seemed to want Dubas' to get guys like Clifford/Simmonds ect)

The problem i suppose is Keefe or Tre is they're going to have to spell it out clear as day to guys like Reaves or Bertuzzi why they're here...... (Especially Reaves).

Why wouldnt we assume he is involved? he is the coach afterall. Watch the clip of him telling foligno that he would prefer that he not respond and fight on behalf of his teammate. You can see the confusion in Foligno's face. Thats not projection on anyones part, its right there for you to see yourself.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Yes.
No.
Maybe.
I don't know.

 

[garce]

If theyre going have Reaves in the line up, he should have been out there next shift not only after Marchand but forcing Fredric, Carlo , Debrusk or one of the after whistle punchers to fight or turn heel and run. An extra minor or two in November may mean that the likes of Sam Bennett et al will think twice about taking liberties in May. I’ve noticed a lot of the after whistle abuse has been tempered this year but it means nothing if guys like like Marchand are allowed to preen in front of the bench with no repercussions take a few penalties,now. Domi knows how to sucker punch he gives Patsta one, would a suspension be catastrophic?

 

[theTTC]

And if the rules are going to stop teams from holding them accountable we may as well have some rats of our own.

Had a couple pretty good ones in Kadri and Bunting. They were run out of town by local media, by the cucks in this forum, and most likely the one constant over the past decade... Shanahan.

 

[Menzinger]

Bill Guerin said they loved having Reaves and wanted to resign him badly but it didn't work out. How were they deploying him that made him a difference maker as opposed to how the Leafs are deploying him and he's a non factor?

They weren't really deploying him any differently; his numbers really weren't great with the Wild. Guerin just has a soft spot for tough guys.

Why wouldnt we assume he is involved? he is the coach afterall. Watch the clip of him telling foligno that he would prefer that he not respond and fight on behalf of his teammate. You can see the confusion in Foligno's face. Thats not projection on anyones part, its right there for you to see yourself.

Because taking a longer look at Keefes coaching career there's really not much there to suggest he's against tough guys/fighting (imo if anything there's the opposite)

The specific situation you're describing seems more about keeping a top 9 player out of the penalty box during a playoff game

 

[nuck]

Domi does that stuff once in a blue moon. He doesn't hit or really take out players. He has done it before, sure... but you think he did it every other game? No. Bertuzzi has never been much of a hitter or fighter, typically just greasy. Always has been. He's just like Bunting.

New players join a new team and have adrenaline, and it eventually settles into what they usually are. Muzzin was always the same kind of player. Reaves is always that player and Rangers and Wild fans will tell you how frustrating he disappears in that aspect. Simmonds did more with less.... and he even agreed to stick around despite being waived and rarely played. Foligno was injured 80% of his time here, how is that on Keefe?

Players don't abandon that part of their game. I dunno why the coach needs to be blamed for the teams lack of response all the time. Treliving deserves a lot more heat for not addressing that part of the team in greater detail. Instead he prioritzed a terrible enforcer and some solid 1 year players to round out the team.

Players kind of do what they are told or they don't play unless they are your top couple of stars. Finish those checks or you sit. Get in the scrum even if you are afraid to ever throw a punch. I seriously doubt Keefe ever said that a message needs to be sent to an opposition player and nobody responded. He didn't say anything. You can see clubs where a coach pushes that part of it and guys who didn't do it for the last coach are doing it now. They don't suddenly become "tough". They yap and they push and they scrum and they lay the odd dirty hit because the coach tells them when the team needs that to be done. That isn't SK's message.

I think they are playing the type of hockey they are told to play. Attack, and don't get dragged into the alley, we will punish them with the power play. If the player's game isn't the coaches game they do abandon it because they understand they don't make the decisions. Its the coach who determines a teams style, not the players. They are following the Xs and Os from the coach. They hit and mix it up as much as they are told to. How good they are at it depends on the player's skill set but a timid team usually comes from a timid coach.

Bertuzzi's hits per 60 were 4.67 after his trade to the Bruins but they were 3.39 in Detroit. He didn't suddenly grow a pair, just new coach and some new rules. I think guys like Reaves and Foligno will play their game to the extent they get the ice time but the average player has a range that the coach can use if he chooses. They won't become tough if they never were but they will play as tough or be as soft as they are capable when given direction. Did Tre prioritize the terrible enforcer or did Keefe say please get me a gun I can shoot from the bench to replace Simmonds? And how is Reaves so much worse for the Leafs right now than he was for a weaker Wild team last season? Is he that bad or is he just another type of player Keefe doesn't understand how to use?