Does Marner get Boo’d?

[francis246]

To extend a cheesy car analogy.

Auston Matthews is a Lamborghini. That’s great. Matthew Tkachuk is a Land Rover which is less glamorous and more utilitarian.

Tkachuk got you to where you needed to go, in tough conditions and you have no regrets about the whole journey, you rest easy sipping a beer out of a mug.

Meanwhile Matthews still needs to make that journey himself, and is unproven over uncertain terrain and tough conditions up ahead. You think the Lambo is a better car but is it?

Fair I don’t doubt that. Just out of curiosity purely and the sake of good faith discussion. If we were to swap Matthews with Tkachuk or a Tkachuk type player do you think we have more success as a team?

 

[myleafs]

Yes I have played many sports, and no, what Tkachuk brings is not difficult to measure. No, Tkachuk does not have a secret magical intangible quality that helps his team win. That's just what people say when they like a certain style of player, but they're not as good as they want. Tkachuk is all offense, while Marner actually does bring more outside of production. Helping generate adrenaline and rallying teammates can be a minor positive quality, but you make the mistake of thinking that only players like Tkachuk can bring that in only one specific way. That is achievable through many means, and it's something Marner does as well. If anything, Tkachuk is more prone to creating the opposite effect.

Ignoring opponent quality and context in the playoffs is indeed ridiculous. You're right about that. The mistake you make is thinking that later round automatically equals tougher opponent or increased difficulty to produce, and that's simply not true. Over the past little while in the playoffs, the Leafs have faced some of the most difficult situations to produce in the league. What we have seen is a team-wide phenomenon, not individual.

Linemates? But his linemates have produced even less in the playoffs. Heck, sometimes, the 3rd linemate may as well have not been there. Is that you acknowledging that playoff production does not perfectly capture the quality of a player? Because that's true, but destroys the whole argument against Marner. Ironically, his linemates are the ones who have been unable to convert his many good setups; creating the source of the criticism against him.

The difference between their cap hits is only 1.4m, and quality relative to cap hit is a different argument than quality.

Both Tkachuk and Marner have shown that they can lead their team in the playoffs. Marner has had plenty of good playoffs. More than Tkachuk, in fact.

Running him out of town is very much saying that he can never turn it around, which even if you believe all of the things you said about Marner, is a historically unsupported opinion. We saw that with Tkachuk himself. What's tiring is watching people single out and attack one of the best players this team will ever have, for 5 years, for no good reason, and advocate for destroying this era because they haven't yet gotten what they feel entitled to, as they refuse to understand and acknowledge the actual reasons why.

That was quite the spin job....bravo

 

[Nineteen67]

No one can take Tkachuks cups away from him and it will be something he has over Matthews which is completely true. But i’d just like to point out he didn’t win anything in Calgary. It wasn’t until he forced a trade to the best team in hockey (Presidents Trophy winning Panthers) until he started winning. So wouldn’t you agree that my premise is true? How the team is constructed plays a huge part in determining a winner and not one player by themselves. If he was the penultimate winner you claim he is, would he have not made the finals with Calgary?



I think so, will it be with Toronto? I don’t know. Even being pro Marner on this team, I can’t simply ignore the past 8 years of failing to make a conference finals, let alone a second round. So I can’t sit here with certainty and say it’ll happen for him in Toronto. But Marner’s a good player he could potentially win a cup. I don’t have a crystal ball. You are right his style of play would have to change for it to really happen here.

I think the Panthers would tell you that he put them over the top.

Yes, teams that give themselves an opportunity to win are constructed properly . You build the team by finding players that fit a roles. That’s whole problem with the Leafs, 50+% of the cap is spent on the same position.

IMO, from what I’ve watched over the past 2 seasons had Florida traded for Matthews instead of Tkachuk they would not have won a Cup.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

IMO, from what I’ve watched over the past 2 seasons had Florida traded for Matthews instead of Tkachuk they would not have won a Cup.

Oh come on now. A 1 - 2 center punch of: Barkov and Matthews is getting it done.

 

[notbias]

To extend a cheesy car analogy.

Auston Matthews is a Lamborghini. That’s great. Matthew Tkachuk is a Land Rover which is less glamorous and more utilitarian.

Tkachuk got you to where you needed to go, in tough conditions and you have no regrets about the whole journey, you rest easy sipping a beer out of a mug.

Meanwhile Matthews still needs to make that journey himself, and is unproven over uncertain terrain and tough conditions up ahead. You think the Lambo is a better car but is it?

Tkachuk is not the guy on his team, if he was, his team wouldn't make it past the first round like they didn't in Calgary.

People worshipping Tkachuk all of a sudden is hilarious, he was not good when he was supposed to be the go to guy, and now that he is somewhere between 3rd-5th best player on his team, he all of a sudden is this amazing player who is a great playoff performer?

 

[ACC1224]

Oh come on now. A 1 - 2 center punch of: Barkov and Matthews is getting it done.

They'd have two in a row.

 

[notbias]

I think the Panthers would tell you that he put them over the top.

Yes, teams that give themselves an opportunity to win are constructed properly . You build the team by finding players that fit a roles. That’s whole problem with the Leafs, 50+% of the cap is spent on the same position.

IMO, from what I’ve watched over the past 2 seasons had Florida traded for Matthews instead of Tkachuk they would not have won a Cup.

Bobrovsky not sucking put them over the top.

 

[Stephen]

Fair I don’t doubt that. Just out of curiosity purely and the sake of good faith discussion. If we were to swap Matthews with Tkachuk or a Tkachuk type player do you think we have more success as a team?

If we were to talk about real world rosters I think losing Matthews at center and adding Tkachuk at wing would cause some major roster issues.

But assuming we’re still talking about this on a hypothetical school yard debate level of resolution, I think we lose some of the high end cruise control capabilities and identity based on high end skill, but in the elimination moments a scrappier Leafs team would have a better than .000 in a winner take all situation.

Keep in mind the more successful Leafs playoff teams in the 90s and 2000s weren’t built on overwhelming skills advantages.

 

[Stephen]

Tkachuk is not the guy on his team, if he was, his team wouldn't make it past the first round like they didn't in Calgary.

People worshipping Tkachuk all of a sudden is hilarious, he was not good when he was supposed to be the go to guy, and now that he is somewhere between 3rd-5th best player on his team, he all of a sudden is this amazing player who is a great playoff performer?

Actually I think Matthew Tkachuk is a little overrated in the playoffs. He sucked in Calgary to unusual levels, but overall he got it done once in Florida.

This is more a critique of Auston Matthews being a pretty big playoff disappointment relative to all the great things he does in the regular season.

 

[notbias]

If we were to talk about real world rosters I think losing Matthews at center and adding Tkachuk at wing would cause some major roster issues.

But assuming we’re still talking about this on a hypothetical school yard debate level of resolution, I think we lose some of the high end cruise control capabilities and identity based on high end skill, but in the elimination moments a scrappier Leafs team would have a better than .000 in a winner take all situation.

Keep in mind the more successful Leafs playoff teams in the 90s and 2000s weren’t built on overwhelming skills advantages.

But the more successful Leafs playoff teams from he 1920s were.

So your point is kind of irrelevant...

Every team that has one recently has been one of the most skilled teams.

 

[Nineteen67]

Bobrovsky not sucking put them over the top.

Certainly part of it. Great players playing well is vital. As Leafs fans we are all too familiar with the opposite.

I wish Tkachuk was healthy that first year to see if would been enough.

 

[notbias]

Certainly part of it. Great players playing well is vital. As Leafs fans we are all too familiar with the opposite.

I wish Tkachuk was healthy that first year to see if would been enough.

Against Vegas? They got destroyed, Tkachuk getting destroyed too didn't change anything.

How good do you need to be to win? Let's look at Tkachuk's playoffs and see how much he contributed per round.

Round 1 (Tampa) - 5GP 3G 6A 9P
Round 2 (Boston) - 6GP 1G 4A 5P
Round 3 (NYR) - 6GP 1G 4A 5P
Round 4 (Edmonton) - 7GP 1G 2A 3P

I wish our star players could play like this and we still win.

 

[Nineteen67]

Fair I don’t doubt that. Just out of curiosity purely and the sake of good faith discussion. If we were to swap Matthews with Tkachuk or a Tkachuk type player do you think we have more success as a team?

Probably not as they’re not really a contender with all the holes. They have Nylander taking up 11.5 and will not compete in the playoffs, Marner @ 10.9 has not competed ( I think he can, just hasn’t). Matthews has been the best of those three, but he has to find another gear

If I was building a team from scratch I would take Matthews all day.

 

[Nineteen67]

Against Vegas? They got destroyed, Tkachuk getting destroyed too didn't change anything.

How good do you need to be to win? Let's look at Tkachuk's playoffs and see how much he contributed per round.

Round 1 (Tampa) - 5GP 3G 6A 9P
Round 2 (Boston) - 6GP 1G 4A 5P
Round 3 (NYR) - 6GP 1G 4A 5P
Round 4 (Edmonton) - 7GP 1G 2A 3P

I wish our star players could play like this and we still win.

22 points, that’s pretty good. I didn’t realize he tied for the team lead in points.

I wish Leafs stars would compete too. We all do. I don’t know if you watch very many games, but it’s disheartening to see the lack of effort.

 

[Racer88]

Once it was impossible to win with a Euro Captain... then Lidstrom
Once it was impossible to win with players making above 10 mil ..then Eichel
For almost 20 years, it was impossible for a Paul Maurice team to win the Cup.. until 2024...

Glass ceilings are being broke in sports all the time, it's impossible to do it, until it is done. If you are in your 60's I'm sure you've learned that what was once is no longer.

There will be a day where a team that has 5 players making 10 mil +. It's not if, it is when.

Yup 10-15 years in the future when the cap is 150-160 million but not now or the last 5 years

 

[Mess]

Actually I think Matthew Tkachuk is a little overrated in the playoffs. He sucked in Calgary to unusual levels, but overall he got it done once in Florida.

This is more a critique of Auston Matthews being a pretty big playoff disappointment relative to all the great things he does in the regular season.

Top playoff scorers past 3 years combined.

Only the 3 Oilers have produced more playoff points than Tkachuk. 56 points in 56 games = PPG playoff performer.

vs.

Auston Matthews career playoff points over 8 playoff seasons.

 

[Madap]

Yes I have played many sports, and no, what Tkachuk brings is not difficult to measure. No, Tkachuk does not have a secret magical intangible quality that helps his team win. That's just what people say when they like a certain style of player, but they're not as good as they want. Tkachuk is all offense, while Marner actually does bring more outside of production. Helping generate adrenaline and rallying teammates can be a minor positive quality, but you make the mistake of thinking that only players like Tkachuk can bring that in only one specific way. That is achievable through many means, and it's something Marner does as well. If anything, Tkachuk is more prone to creating the opposite effect.

Ignoring opponent quality and context in the playoffs is indeed ridiculous. You're right about that. The mistake you make is thinking that later round automatically equals tougher opponent or increased difficulty to produce, and that's simply not true. Over the past little while in the playoffs, the Leafs have faced some of the most difficult situations to produce in the league. What we have seen is a team-wide phenomenon, not individual.

Linemates? But his linemates have produced even less in the playoffs. Heck, sometimes, the 3rd linemate may as well have not been there. Is that you acknowledging that playoff production does not perfectly capture the quality of a player? Because that's true, but destroys the whole argument against Marner. Ironically, his linemates are the ones who have been unable to convert his many good setups; creating the source of the criticism against him.

The difference between their cap hits is only 1.4m, and quality relative to cap hit is a different argument than quality.

Both Tkachuk and Marner have shown that they can lead their team in the playoffs. Marner has had plenty of good playoffs. More than Tkachuk, in fact.

Running him out of town is very much saying that he can never turn it around, which even if you believe all of the things you said about Marner, is a historically unsupported opinion. We saw that with Tkachuk himself. What's tiring is watching people single out and attack one of the best players this team will ever have, for 5 years, for no good reason, and advocate for destroying this era because they haven't yet gotten what they feel entitled to, as they refuse to understand and acknowledge the actual reasons why.

I don’t think there is some secret magical intangible - its very clear what he brings and what Marner doesn’t. I agree that Marner can also prop up his teammates, he doesn’t have to be physical or get in anyone’s face as long as he makes big plays at important times. He just hasn’t, and Tkachuk can brings things when he’s not scoring. Sure, Marner can play some defence but our consistent problem is offence, in which he continues to fail.

We have played weirdly strong first round playoff opponents over the years, no doubt. But Florida plays them as well, and wins along with beating other teams. And don’t forget what happened when we went head to head.

Playoff performances are typically small sample size and I defended Marner and Matthews for years for exactly that reason. But it’s getting to be not a small sample size anymore. They both continue to fail, and I fully believe it’s mental. Who’s more to blame? I think Marner but they both have not been worth their massive contracts. Can you honestly say that they have been? They fought for enormous contracts and they have a larger share of responsibility to almost every other player in the league.

No, I do not agree. I think it’s possible he can turn it around, but we can not afford to wait and risk it any longer. We need to make a change to the core. There is nothing to destroy as we’ve had almost zero real success. If we stick with them through everything and continue to get no success, it will truly be one of the biggest failures in the history of the sport. I can’t believe we still have fans willing to stick this through after watching them fail time and time again.

 

[Racer88]

Oh come on now. A 1 - 2 center punch of: Barkov and Matthews is getting it done.

Regular season maybe, playoffs not so much

 

[notbias]

Top playoff scorers past 3 years combined.

View attachment 898772

Only the 3 Oilers have produced more playoff points than Tkachuk. 56 points in 56 games = PPG playoff performer.

vs.

Auston Matthews career playoff points over 8 playoff seasons.

View attachment 898773

This is a Mess!

New exercise, compare the same players you are, but now, over the same timeframe.

I wonder why you chose career for one player and not the other... completely honest and no motive, good job.

Career wise Matthews and Marner > Tkachuk for PPG, just incase you want to compare careers.

Regular season maybe, playoffs not so much

Matthews is better than Tkachuk in the playoffs, so I really don't understand this logic.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

This is a Mess!

New exercise, compare the same players you are, but now, over the same timeframe.

View attachment 898778View attachment 898779

I wonder why you chose career for one player and not the other... completely honest and no motive, good job.

Career why Matthews and Marner > Tkachuk for PPG, just incase you want to compare careers.



Matthews is better than Tkachuk in the playoffs, so I really don't understand this logic.

It's disingenuous to do it over three yesrs because the Leafs have only played half the number of games.

Florida and Edmonton have played almost the exact same number of games over the last three years in the playoffs as the Leafs have in eight.

 

[notbias]

It's disingenuous to do it over three yesrs because the Leafs have only played half the number of games.

Florida and Edmonton have played almost the exact same number of games over the last three years in the playoffs as the Leafs have in eight.

The age of the players is disingenuous... that's why you use PPG.

I don't see anything logical in comparing a 19 year old Matthews and a 26 year old Tkachuk.

 

[Nineteen67]

Top playoff scorers past 3 years combined.

View attachment 898772

Only the 3 Oilers have produced more playoff points than Tkachuk. 56 points in 56 games = PPG playoff performer.

vs.

Auston Matthews career playoff points over 8 playoff seasons.

View attachment 898773

Over the past three yrs they both have put up similar point totals in regular season and playoffs. In the simplest form, Tkachuk has been more entertaining to watch

 

[Confucius]

Over the past three yrs they both have put up similar point totals in regular season and playoffs. In the simplest form, Tkachuk has been more entertaining to watch

I think a lot of “extra fans” tuned in to see Mathews attempt at 70. I know a person or two that tuned in just to witness that. I can’t remember any Tkachuk hype, other than negative stuff.

 

[Nineteen67]

Oh come on now. A 1 - 2 center punch of: Barkov and Matthews is getting it done.

I don’t share that sentiment.

 

[Nineteen67]

I think a lot of “extra fans” tuned in to see Mathews attempt at 70. I know a person or two that tuned in just to witness that. I can’t remember any Tkachuk hype, other than negative stuff.

Negative stuff?