Does Marner get Boo’d?

[Confucius]

If I had a choice to pick either Tkachuk or Matthews to fill out the last spot on a team to play for a Cup today, I would take Tkachuk. When you compare resumes, they have similar point totals over the past three yrs, but the difference, imo, is Tkachuk has won and displayed that he’s willing to sacrifice to win.

What does Marner have to do with any of that?

My apologies, it's a Marner thread I assumed you were comparing tkachuk and Marner

 

[Hellcat]

Ahhhh….It is a team game, that’s precisely what we’ve been saying for years.

I’ve seen a team that had four players making ~50% of the cap, and they never win. Then I compare that group with what I’ve witnessed for 60 yrs and can easily see the difference.

Once it was impossible to win with a Euro Captain... then Lidstrom
Once it was impossible to win with players making above 10 mil ..then Eichel
For almost 20 years, it was impossible for a Paul Maurice team to win the Cup.. until 2024...

Glass ceilings are being broke in sports all the time, it's impossible to do it, until it is done. If you are in your 60's I'm sure you've learned that what was once is no longer.

There will be a day where a team that has 5 players making 10 mil +. It's not if, it is when.

 

[IPS]

Once it was impossible to win with players making above 10 mil ..then Eichel

Yeah sure, just took a little "finagling" with the cap but they sure did it.

 

[Hellcat]

Regular influence programming just running its magic.

Repeat the nonsense of "why you guys only blaming one player" when nobody is doing any such thing and you'd be shocked how many people cling onto it.

If this is what you believe, you are not following this forum close enough. I directly asked will you boo JT, Willie and AM too and the direct response was no just Marner but JT is close. Some forum posters are doing exactly that.

 

[Hellcat]

Yeah sure, just took a little "finagling" with the cap but they sure did it.

Yep, shady or not, every team cheats, some teams cheat more in the light. Point remains, what is impossible is impossible until someone does it. I remember a time where running a sub 10 second 100m was impossible, humans physiologically could not run a sub 10 sec, then it was done, and now it is done all the time.

 

[Nineteen67]

Once it was impossible to win with a Euro Captain... then Lidstrom
Once it was impossible to win with players making above 10 mil ..then Eichel
For almost 20 years, it was impossible for a Paul Maurice team to win the Cup.. until 2024...

Glass ceilings are being broke in sports all the time, it's impossible to do it, until it is done. If you are in your 60's I'm sure you've learned that what was once is no longer.

There will be a day where a team that has 5 players making 10 mil +. It's not if, it is when.

Probably, but what does it take for those things to happen? The players must be good enough.

When a team with 5 players making 10 million wins a Cup, I assure you they will have to sacrifice in order to do it.

 

[francis246]

Who singled out one player? Why did you bring up Marner when I was giving my reasons why I’d choose Tkachuk over Matthews, right now?

You brought up winning a memorial cup as an indicator for being a winner. You claimed Tkachuk is a winner because he’s previously won a mem cup. Insinuating that we don’t have winners on the Leafs. So I said, guess who was his linemate and the MVP of that Memorial Cup? You guessed it Mitch Marner, so by your definition Marner would also be considered a winner seeing as he was the MVP, out performed Tkachuk in those playoffs, correct?

 

[Nineteen67]

You brought up winning a memorial cup as an indicator for being a winner. You claimed Tkachuk is a winner because he’s previously won a mem cup. Insinuating that we don’t have winners on the Leafs. So I said, guess who was his linemate and the MVP of that Memorial Cup? You guessed it Mitch Marner, so by your definition Marner would also be considered a winner seeing as he was the MVP, out performed Tkachuk in those playoffs, correct?

Memorial Cup and what else did I mention was on his resume? Why did you isolate just one his accomplishments.?

 

[Hellcat]

Probably, but what does it take for those things to happen? The players must be good enough.

When a team with 5 players making 10 million wins a Cup, I assure you they will have to sacrifice in order to do it.

No doubt and they will need a coach who has a clue... for me the team plays to the coaches abilities. you are gifted 4 elite stars and your answer when the goign gets tough is to load up one line with 3 of them. Super! One hockey player shouldn't own the failures of a team, one coach who controls 20 players should own it.

 

[Confucius]

Memorial Cup and what else did I mention was on his resume? Why did you isolate just one his accomplishments.?

Well it is the only instance where both were on the same team. Trying to make comparisons when on different teams would not be as accurate.

 

[Nineteen67]

No doubt and they will need a coach who has a clue... for me the team plays to the coaches abilities. you are gifted 4 elite stars and your answer when the goign gets tough is to load up one line with 3 of them. Super! One hockey player shouldn't own the failures of a team, one coach who controls 20 players should own it.

They all own it.

I’m still not convinced they are elite stars because they don’t do what it takes to win.

Well it is the only instance where both were on the same team. Trying to make comparisons when on different teams would not be as accurate.

Why are you comparing those two when the discussion was between Mathew’s and Tkachuk?

 

[francis246]

Memorial Cup and what else did I mention was on his resume? Why did you isolate just one his accomplishments.?

You opened Pandora’s box by including memorial cups not me. I’m just using the guidelines you pointed out, so does winning a memorial cup and being mvp of that tournament make you a winner or does that apply only to Tkachuk (who wasn’t even mvp btw)and not Marner?

 

[francis246]

Well it is the only instance where both were on the same team. Trying to make comparisons when on different teams would not be as accurate.

Hahaha please correct me if I’m wrong cause I might be in the twilight zone but Mem Cups and Stanley Cups are TEAM awards right?! So anyone on those teams would be classified as winners no matter their impact great or small. Because we are both now being told that you can only use the mem cup to be classified as a winner if you follow it up with a Stanley Cup. Them goal posts be shifting lol

 

[ACC1224]

Hahaha please correct me if I’m wrong cause I might be in the twilight zone but Mem Cups and Stanley Cups are TEAM awards right?! So anyone on those teams would be classified as winners no matter their impact great or small. Because we are both now being told that you can only use the mem cup to be classified as a winner if you follow it up with a Stanley Cup. Them goal posts be shifting lol

Team sports aren't for everyone.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Have you played a sport before? A lot of what Tkachuck brings are difficult to measure but are likely very important to a team. You can dismiss it all you want, but anyone who has played a sport knows adrenaline and/or rallying around teammates is a very real thing.

Aside from intangibles, comparing both players last 4 playoff series when one is playing for the cup against more difficult opponents, is ridiculous.

One player also rides shotgun to Matthews, whereas the other does not get that benefit.

One player gets paid quite a bit more than the other, so expectations should be higher.

Tkachuk has actually shown in the past he can lead a team in the playoffs, while Marner as perennially sucked. Even one good playoffs for Marner would go a long way in giving fans hope.

Even if you disagree with everything above, just watch the damn games and tell me you’d rather have Marner.

I won’t say Marner can never turn it around, but it is beyond tiring reading everyone on here defend him.

Yes I have played many sports, and no, what Tkachuk brings is not difficult to measure. No, Tkachuk does not have a secret magical intangible quality that helps his team win. That's just what people say when they like a certain style of player, but they're not as good as they want. Tkachuk is all offense, while Marner actually does bring more outside of production. Helping generate adrenaline and rallying teammates can be a minor positive quality, but you make the mistake of thinking that only players like Tkachuk can bring that in only one specific way. That is achievable through many means, and it's something Marner does as well. If anything, Tkachuk is more prone to creating the opposite effect.

Ignoring opponent quality and context in the playoffs is indeed ridiculous. You're right about that. The mistake you make is thinking that later round automatically equals tougher opponent or increased difficulty to produce, and that's simply not true. Over the past little while in the playoffs, the Leafs have faced some of the most difficult situations to produce in the league. What we have seen is a team-wide phenomenon, not individual.

Linemates? But his linemates have produced even less in the playoffs. Heck, sometimes, the 3rd linemate may as well have not been there. Is that you acknowledging that playoff production does not perfectly capture the quality of a player? Because that's true, but destroys the whole argument against Marner. Ironically, his linemates are the ones who have been unable to convert his many good setups; creating the source of the criticism against him.

The difference between their cap hits is only 1.4m, and quality relative to cap hit is a different argument than quality.

Both Tkachuk and Marner have shown that they can lead their team in the playoffs. Marner has had plenty of good playoffs. More than Tkachuk, in fact.

Running him out of town is very much saying that he can never turn it around, which even if you believe all of the things you said about Marner, is a historically unsupported opinion. We saw that with Tkachuk himself. What's tiring is watching people single out and attack one of the best players this team will ever have, for 5 years, for no good reason, and advocate for destroying this era because they haven't yet gotten what they feel entitled to, as they refuse to understand and acknowledge the actual reasons why.

 

[Nineteen67]

You opened Pandora’s box by including memorial cups not me. I’m just using the guidelines you pointed out, so does winning a memorial cup and being mvp of that tournament make you a winner or does that apply only to Tkachuk (who wasn’t even mvp btw)and not Marner?

It makes you winner. Is someone disputing that?

 

[francis246]

Team sports aren't for everyone.

Honestly I have no idea how one could mention Tkachuk as being a winner because he won a memorial cup and then turn around and say Marner is not. Makes no sense at all, no sense. Especially considering how dominant Marner was at that Mem Cup.

Again it comes down to people just choosing to be crude. Winning a championship is a team effort. Marner may have been the MVP but he of course couldn’t have done it without Tkachuk, Dvorak, Stolarz, Mermis, Rupert, Thomas ect.

Same with Tkachuk and his Stanley a cup. Tkachuk had 3 goals in his last 19 this playoffs. He may have been the emotional leader but he does not win that cup without Reinhart, Bennett, Verhaghe, Barkov, Edkblad, Forsling, Bobrovsky, even Paul Maurice.

 

[Stephen]

That wasn’t the question. The question was who is a better hockey player. Auston Matthews is a better hockey player than Tkachuk. We didn’t ask you who you rather have on your team.

I think someone could make a fairly compelling school yard argument that Matthew Tkachuk is a better hockey player than Auston Matthews.

Auston Matthews is excessively better in a lot of offensive and two way categories, has more natural talent than he knows what to do with and has the tools to do more than Tkachuk can ever dream of when all is said and done.

But Tkachuk is a gamer in the truest sense. He has gone to 2 finals, beat Connor McDavid for a Stanley Cup head to head, and a higher single season points total than Matthews. If Matthews had done those things for us they’d have renamed Toronto Austonville by now.

Theres no downside to choosing Tkachuk over Matthews. Maybe you got it wrong but Tkachuk has already done what we can only hope Matthews can deliver on.

 

[francis246]

It makes you winner. Is someone disputing that?

Perfect so in a sense Marner is a winner and has proven to be a winner in the past. Just want to have that clearly outlined, because we have pages of people saying he’s not a winner.

 

[Nineteen67]

Hahaha please correct me if I’m wrong cause I might be in the twilight zone but Mem Cups and Stanley Cups are TEAM awards right?! So anyone on those teams would be classified as winners no matter their impact great or small. Because we are both now being told that you can only use the mem cup to be classified as a winner if you follow it up with a Stanley Cup. Them goal posts be shifting lol

Some of you move goal posts, we get it. You also remove context.

Restating what I originally said. As of right now, I would take Tkachuk over Matthews if I wanted to win a Cup.
Both are highly skilled players, but my differentiation is that Tkachuk has displayed winning habits and has proven over time that he can win.

 

[francis246]

I think someone could make a fairly compelling school yard argument that Matthew Tkachuk is a better hockey player than Auston Matthews.

Auston Matthews is excessively better in a lot of offensive and two way categories, has more natural talent than he knows what to do with and has the tools to do more than Tkachuk can ever dream of when all is said and done.

But Tkachuk is a gamer in the truest sense. He has gone to 2 finals, beat Connor McDavid for a Stanley Cup head to head, and a higher single season points total than Matthews. If Matthews had done those things for us they’d have renamed Toronto Austonville by now.

Theres no downside to choosing Tkachuk over Matthews. Maybe you got it wrong but Tkachuk has already done what we can only hope Matthews can deliver on.

Cool story. Again the question was fairly simple. Was talking objectively.

Matthews has 1 less career playoff goals in about 20 less games than Tkachuk. That’s all I need to see. If we are talking about straight up comparisons. Tkachuk just appeals to people because of his play style which is amazing. But production wise his linemates do a lot of the goal scoring. He’s got good intangibles, he forechecks, not afraid of contact ect. But his stats speak for themselves, even if you watched the finals he didn’t do anything besides take a dumb penalty in every game in the finals trying to bait the oilers into nonsense. Good player but super overrated by this board as some playoff hockey messiah.

 

[ACC1224]

If you swapped Matthews with Tkachuk the Leafs still weren't winning the Cup last year.

This comparison is similar to the Gary Roberts/Sundin comparisons we use to see.

 

[Nineteen67]

Perfect so in a sense Marner is a winner and has proven to be a winner in the past. Just want to have that clearly outlined, because we have pages of people saying he’s not a winner.

But he hasn’t done it the NHL level, yet. The question is can he do it? Is he willing to do what it takes?

 

[francis246]

Some of you move goal posts, we get it. You also remove context.

Restating what I originally said. As of right now, I would take Tkachuk over Matthews if I wanted to win a Cup.
Both are highly skilled players, but my differentiation is that Tkachuk has displayed winning habits and has proven over time that he can win.

No one can take Tkachuks cups away from him and it will be something he has over Matthews which is completely true. But i’d just like to point out he didn’t win anything in Calgary. It wasn’t until he forced a trade to the best team in hockey (Presidents Trophy winning Panthers) until he started winning. So wouldn’t you agree that my premise is true? How the team is constructed plays a huge part in determining a winner and not one player by themselves. If he was the penultimate winner you claim he is, would he have not made the finals with Calgary?

But he hasn’t done it the NHL level, yet. The question is can he do it? Is he willing to do what it takes?

I think so, will it be with Toronto? I don’t know. Even being pro Marner on this team, I can’t simply ignore the past 8 years of failing to make a conference finals, let alone a second round. So I can’t sit here with certainty and say it’ll happen for him in Toronto. But Marner’s a good player he could potentially win a cup. I don’t have a crystal ball. You are right his style of play would have to change for it to really happen here.

 

[Stephen]

Cool story. Again the question was fairly simple. Was talking objectively.

Matthews has 1 less career playoff goals in about 20 less games than Tkachuk. That’s all I need to see. If we are talking about straight up comparisons. Tkachuk just appeals to people because of his play style which is amazing. But production wise his linemates do a lot of the goal scoring. He’s got good intangibles, he forechecks, not afraid of contact ect. But his stats speak for themselves, even if you watched the finals he didn’t do anything besides take a dumb penalty in every game in the finals trying to bait the oilers into nonsense. Good player but super overrated by this board as some playoff hockey messiah.

To extend a cheesy car analogy.

Auston Matthews is a Lamborghini. That’s great. Matthew Tkachuk is a Land Rover which is less glamorous and more utilitarian.

Tkachuk got you to where you needed to go, in tough conditions and you have no regrets about the whole journey, you rest easy sipping a beer out of a mug.

Meanwhile Matthews still needs to make that journey himself, and is unproven over uncertain terrain and tough conditions up ahead. You think the Lambo is a better car but is it?