Do you want to see Ryane Clowe traded?

[AstroDan]

We lost to the blues because we didn't know how to play around the trap. We played a super passive system and let them have all the time and space in the world in the defensive zone and help at the blueline and tried to grind and cycle in the offensive zone. Which played perfectly into the Blues system and they trounced us, exactly as a lot of us predicted.

Right now, these last two games (and the first 7) we are playing the right system to beat the Blues, and if we play like we played against Anaheim, we will beat them. Aggressive fore-check, fast pressure on the puck carrier at all times, score on the rush and stretch passes. That is how you defeat the trap, and the Sharks have done that brilliantly the last two games.

The trap is only in use when you play with the lead. The Blues did not trap when behind. I remember the frustration level as the Blues pounded us along the boards with no pounding of our own, they would score, and now the trap was on.
Very effective, if boring. If SJ had stepped up and slammed back early in game 1 and 2, Maybe they take leads and maybe a different result happens. We owned LA last year and if we play Shark hockey, I think we own anyone. Part of Sharks hockey is the ability to be hard when needed. They were hard last night against a chippy, irritating team and the results were good.

 

[Arrch]

Gomez, Shep, Galiardi

Gomez I'll give you, but Galiardi and Shep can and will play physical. They aren't fighters, but you don't need that from everyone.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Make no mistake, this team without Murray and Clowe is pretty damn soft. There is an element of team toughness and grit, but you also don't want your skill guys doing too much heavy lifting either. The bottom 6 is cottonball soft.....Gomez, Shep, Galiardi, Handzus, etc. Desi is a good middleweight. Burish shouldn't be counted on...for much of anything at this point (though he's a candidate to step up in the POs).

What about Couture? Does anyone on the Sharks get pushed around as much as he does? Without Clowe around to have his back Couture is going to be run even more.

Desi and Burish can fight if needed, but they're middleweights who are only going to be on the ice a few minutes a game...can't provide an immediate response. If the Sharks trade Clowe, it would be nice if they got a decent player back to address this need or at least get to it in the offseason.

I wouldn't call Galiardi soft at all...probably wouldn't call Sheppard or Handzus "soft" as well. They aren't exactly super-tough, but neither is like Nils Ekman who just crumbled against agitation.

The Sharks do lack an element of toughness/sandpaper/grit in their core, but trading Clowe and Murray doesn't affect that. Neither player is part of SJ's core anymore, and in any case, their toughness was only useful in the context of its productivity. Murray has clearly loss some of his strength. Clowe's fighting, but he isn't creating havoc out there like he has in the past.

 

[hockeyball]

Make no mistake, this team without Murray and Clowe is pretty damn soft. There is an element of team toughness and grit, but you also don't want your skill guys doing too much heavy lifting either. The bottom 6 is cottonball soft.....Gomez, Shep, Galiardi, Handzus, etc. Desi is a good middleweight. Burish shouldn't be counted on...for much of anything at this point (though he's a candidate to step up in the POs).

What about Couture? Does anyone on the Sharks get pushed around as much as he does? Without Clowe around to have his back Couture is going to be run even more.

Desi and Burish can fight if needed, but they're middleweights who are only going to be on the ice a few minutes a game...can't provide an immediate response. If the Sharks trade Clowe, it would be nice if they got a decent player back to address this need or at least get to it in the offseason.

Couture has been just fine without Clowe this entire season. Even now that Clowe is back he's not playing with Couture. Why? Because he is dragging him down defensively and offensively. Marleau - Couture - Wingels is a much better grouping right now.

Wingels is tough, Thornton is tough, Burns is tough, Desjardins is tough, Burish is tough. We have plenty of forwards who can stick up for other guys and hold their own when needed. Clowe isn't scaring anyone away, the instigator rule keeps that from happening. Murray barely fought and couldn't hit anymore because he couldn't skate anymore. You guys are massively over-rating Clowe's utility.

On defense Stuart is plenty tough, Boyle is never to be under-estimated, and Burns is big if he goes back to defense. Plus Petrecki coming up who is as tough as it gets.

 

[TheSandman]

You guys make some good points. I just think there should be a couple of guys on a team who are willing to chase other guys down and hold them accountable. In recent games we say Couture take a knee-on-knee hit, we saw Boyle take a sucker punch, etc. None of the players outside of Clowe are going to actively go after those guys and make them back up their play. And of course you don't want to see Boyle, Thornton, even Wingels doing that dirty work too often.

 

[hockeyball]

You guys make some good points. I just think there should be a couple of guys on a team who are willing to chase other guys down and hold them accountable. In recent games we say Couture take a knee-on-knee hit, we saw Boyle take a sucker punch, etc. None of the players outside of Clowe are going to actively go after those guys and make them back up their play. And of course you don't want to see Boyle, Thornton, even Wingels doing that dirty work too often.

Neither is Clowe. Had Clowe gone after Perry, Perry would have just skated away. Worst case Clowe goes psycho and takes 19 minutes of penalties and we end up short handed for 4 minutes. Boyle solving his own problems is much more effective. I guarantee you Perry is going to think twice about sucker punching Boyle in the face next opportunity.

Enforcers are worthless in the modern NHL. All they do is fight other teams enforcers in staged stupidity. It protects no one, benefits no one, and is embarrassing. Clowe is at least a skilled player who happens to be a good fighter as well, but as long the instigator rule exists it's really just for entertainment.

You want to hold people accountable? Ice guys who hit (legally) like freight trains (Wingels, Stuart, Burns), and guys who are willing to stand up for themselves and beat the **** out of someone who cheap-shotted them. A player is a lot less likely to back down from a guy they cheap shotted than the teams token enforcer.

 

[rangerssharks414]

Trade him for anything. I think some team will throw a lot of money at him in the offseason, and he'll bolt.

 

[Barrie22]

Neither is Clowe. Had Clowe gone after Perry, Perry would have just skated away. Worst case Clowe goes psycho and takes 19 minutes of penalties and we end up short handed for 4 minutes. Boyle solving his own problems is much more effective. I guarantee you Perry is going to think twice about sucker punching Boyle in the face next opportunity.

Enforcers are worthless in the modern NHL. All they do is fight other teams enforcers in staged stupidity. It protects no one, benefits no one, and is embarrassing. Clowe is at least a skilled player who happens to be a good fighter as well, but as long the instigator rule exists it's really just for entertainment.

You want to hold people accountable? Ice guys who hit (legally) like freight trains (Wingels, Stuart, Burns), and guys who are willing to stand up for themselves and beat the **** out of someone who cheap-shotted them. A player is a lot less likely to back down from a guy they cheap shotted than the teams token enforcer.

its why thornton can basically play the dirty game, not to many players (outside of heavy weight goons) will go after a 6'4 225 lbs player who started in the league as an enforcer lol.

 

[ChompChomp]

Neither is Clowe. Had Clowe gone after Perry, Perry would have just skated away. Worst case Clowe goes psycho and takes 19 minutes of penalties and we end up short handed for 4 minutes. Boyle solving his own problems is much more effective. I guarantee you Perry is going to think twice about sucker punching Boyle in the face next opportunity.

Enforcers are worthless in the modern NHL. All they do is fight other teams enforcers in staged stupidity. It protects no one, benefits no one, and is embarrassing. Clowe is at least a skilled player who happens to be a good fighter as well, but as long the instigator rule exists it's really just for entertainment.

You want to hold people accountable? Ice guys who hit (legally) like freight trains (Wingels, Stuart, Burns), and guys who are willing to stand up for themselves and beat the **** out of someone who cheap-shotted them. A player is a lot less likely to back down from a guy they cheap shotted than the teams token enforcer.

It's been mentioned on our Sharks board many times that the Hawks have the fewest hits in the league and have no enforcer, but somehow that point gets lost among those who are adamant that we need enforcers or quasi-enforcers. I think it's a great point as to today's NHL.

I'd also add that when the Blackhawks are steamrolling teams by scoring more goals than the opposition, they don't seem to be worried about people running Toews and Kane. I'm guessing it's because they love other teams enforcers (or anybody) taking dumb penalties and then kill them on the PP. Wanna stop cheap shots? Score PP goals on them when they do dumb stuff. In the playoffs, especially, that usually puts an end to any nonsense.

 

[SoftDumpInTheCorner]

Keep him... these four lines are deep and our D is fast and niemi has been playin outa his mind all season. pk is good. trade no one. go sharks.

I like your optimism! I have really changed my mind on the Sharks this season since the Murray trade. But I think I need a bigger sample size of where this Sharks team is. And I think we will see that before the trade deadline, they have games against DET, PHX, & VAN. These three games will be a good barometer of where the Sharks stand against a hot team, a defensive team, and a good team.

To answer the posters question, if the Sharks win soundly against the three teams, keep Clowe and the squad together and look for a 7th D in the trade market. If the Sharks lose 2 of 3 or all 3, it would be a good idea to move Clowe for a prospect and any kind of draft pick. And hope that they can go on a run from there. The Sharks have to win 10 of 16 games to even think about playoffs.

 

[justinboo*]

agreed, the ducks are sitting a little too comfortable so tonights game against detroit will be a great test

 

[TheSandman]

Neither is Clowe. Had Clowe gone after Perry, Perry would have just skated away. Worst case Clowe goes psycho and takes 19 minutes of penalties and we end up short handed for 4 minutes. Boyle solving his own problems is much more effective. I guarantee you Perry is going to think twice about sucker punching Boyle in the face next opportunity.

Enforcers are worthless in the modern NHL. All they do is fight other teams enforcers in staged stupidity. It protects no one, benefits no one, and is embarrassing. Clowe is at least a skilled player who happens to be a good fighter as well, but as long the instigator rule exists it's really just for entertainment.

You want to hold people accountable? Ice guys who hit (legally) like freight trains (Wingels, Stuart, Burns), and guys who are willing to stand up for themselves and beat the **** out of someone who cheap-shotted them. A player is a lot less likely to back down from a guy they cheap shotted than the teams token enforcer.

It's been mentioned on our Sharks board many times that the Hawks have the fewest hits in the league and have no enforcer, but somehow that point gets lost among those who are adamant that we need enforcers or quasi-enforcers. I think it's a great point as to today's NHL.

I'd also add that when the Blackhawks are steamrolling teams by scoring more goals than the opposition, they don't seem to be worried about people running Toews and Kane. I'm guessing it's because they love other teams enforcers (or anybody) taking dumb penalties and then kill them on the PP. Wanna stop cheap shots? Score PP goals on them when they do dumb stuff. In the playoffs, especially, that usually puts an end to any nonsense.

Yea but...we're not talking about pure goons here, we're talking about Ryane Clowe. I think most teams want guys who can play the game and still fight when called on. Blackhawks have Bickell I suppose. The Blackhawks are also an outrageously skilled team. Who needs to throw a body check when you can light up the scoreboard every night by dangling around the poor fools on the other end...

 

[LunchPail]

why do we need an enforcer? detroit never carried an enforcer on there cup teams, it was about making the team pay the hard way if you want to play rough.

heck once detroit started carrying a enforcer on a regular basis they started dipping in the standings and not doing to well in the playoffs lol.

Really?? Is that a convenient memory?? Seems to me that I remember the Wings having both power forwards AND enforcers in their Cup years:

1996-97: Shanahan, LaPointe, McCarty, Grimson & Kocur
1997-98: Shanahan, LaPointe, McCarty & Kocur
2001-02: Shanahan, Chelios & Avery
2007-08: A. Downey

 

[ChompChomp]

Yea but...we're not talking about pure goons here, we're talking about Ryane Clowe. I think most teams want guys who can play the game and still fight when called on. Blackhawks have Bickell I suppose. The Blackhawks are also an outrageously skilled team. Who needs to throw a body check when you can light up the scoreboard every night by dangling around the poor fools on the other end...

Not to drink the Kool-Aid too much, because Koala will find a way to ruin it, but
Havlat - Thornton - Burns
Marleau - Couture - Wingels
Galiardi - Pavelski - Koko (assuming we can get him back from Bruins in exchange for Clowe)
Desjardins - Gomez - Sheppard

Irwin - Boyle
Stuart - Braun
Vlasic - Demers

Niemi

looks (or has the ability to look) outrageously skilled to me. The more and more I stare at that lineup, the more and more giddy I get about that possibility. Seems like that team could keep up with the Hawks skating wise.

 

[Barrie22]

Really?? Is that a convenient memory?? Seems to me that I remember the Wings having both power forwards AND enforcers in their Cup years:

1996-97: Shanahan, LaPointe, McCarty, Grimson & Kocur
1997-98: Shanahan, LaPointe, McCarty & Kocur
2001-02: Shanahan, Chelios & Avery
2007-08: A. Downey

Downey played an amazing amount games when it mattered, 0 games in the stanley cup playoffs

And doing anything before the lockout changes the entire context also since the game was so much different then it is today. Before 2004 having multiple goons was needed and used more often. The typical goon now adays has gone the way of the dinnosaur

 

[TheSandman]

Not to drink the Kool-Aid too much, because Koala will find a way to ruin it, but
Havlat - Thornton - Burns
Marleau - Couture - Wingels
Galiardi - Pavelski - Koko (assuming we can get him back from Bruins in exchange for Clowe)
Desjardins - Gomez - Sheppard

Irwin - Boyle
Stuart - Braun
Vlasic - Demers

Niemi

looks (or has the ability to look) outrageously skilled to me. The more and more I stare at that lineup, the more and more giddy I get about that possibility. Seems like that team could keep up with the Hawks skating wise.

The difference is a couple of big IFs.

IF Havlat can stay healthy, Wingels can produce consistently as a top-6 player, Boyle stays (otherwise Burns moves back to D). As of today, there is no comparison to the Blackhawks' level of skill and consistency throughout their lineup. There is some potential there though for sure.

 

[AstroDan]

Neither is Clowe. Had Clowe gone after Perry, Perry would have just skated away. Worst case Clowe goes psycho and takes 19 minutes of penalties and we end up short handed for 4 minutes. Boyle solving his own problems is much more effective. I guarantee you Perry is going to think twice about sucker punching Boyle in the face next opportunity.

Enforcers are worthless in the modern NHL. All they do is fight other teams enforcers in staged stupidity. It protects no one, benefits no one, and is embarrassing. Clowe is at least a skilled player who happens to be a good fighter as well, but as long the instigator rule exists it's really just for entertainment.

You want to hold people accountable? Ice guys who hit (legally) like freight trains (Wingels, Stuart, Burns), and guys who are willing to stand up for themselves and beat the **** out of someone who cheap-shotted them. A player is a lot less likely to back down from a guy they cheap shotted than the teams token enforcer.

Good post. I don't think they're "worthless". Agree to disagree.

It's been mentioned on our Sharks board many times that the Hawks have the fewest hits in the league and have no enforcer, but somehow that point gets lost among those who are adamant that we need enforcers or quasi-enforcers. I think it's a great point as to today's NHL.

I'd also add that when the Blackhawks are steamrolling teams by scoring more goals than the opposition, they don't seem to be worried about people running Toews and Kane. I'm guessing it's because they love other teams enforcers (or anybody) taking dumb penalties and then kill them on the PP. Wanna stop cheap shots? Score PP goals on them when they do dumb stuff. In the playoffs, especially, that usually puts an end to any nonsense.

The Hawks have Toews.

They have good PP and the league lets them get away with murder, IMO. They get the PP, other teams get PK.
I still have nightmares about the way the Refs dropped the puck when we met them during their SC run through the PO's. Sharks #1 on FO's, suddenly suck. Brutal.
OK, rant over.

Keep Clowe, I like him.

 

[LunchPail]

Downey played an amazing amount games when it mattered, 0 games in the stanley cup playoffs

Oh, now you're changing the sample size?? Your argument started because you said that the Wings only got better when they stopped carrying enforcers. Now you're amending that to the playoff season?

And doing anything before the lockout changes the entire context also since the game was so much different then it is today. Before 2004 having multiple goons was needed and used more often. The typical goon now adays has gone the way of the dinnosaur

Switching arguments again?? Going from "Cup winning years" to the only one they won after the lockout? Convenient as your memory about the Wings. The fact is, out of those names I listed, only Kocur, Grimson and Downey would fall into the enforcer category. Other than those, the Wings carried power forwards like McCarty and Shanahan and those guys were the ones to play all the time and mete out justice. To say that the Wings only made teams pay by scoring on the PK is just re-writing things to fit your argument.

 

[Bizz]

he's been garbage for 2 seasons now, ship him out now while he still has some value.

 

[Barrie22]

Oh, now you're changing the sample size?? Your argument started because you said that the Wings only got better when they stopped carrying enforcers. Now you're amending that to the playoff season?



Switching arguments again?? Going from "Cup winning years" to the only one they won after the lockout? Convenient as your memory about the Wings. The fact is, out of those names I listed, only Kocur, Grimson and Downey would fall into the enforcer category. Other than those, the Wings carried power forwards like McCarty and Shanahan and those guys were the ones to play all the time and mete out justice. To say that the Wings only made teams pay by scoring on the PK is just re-writing things to fit your argument.

I never said the regular season, that would be you.

And yes going beyond the lockout changes everything. If we were in 1999 season i would agree keep clowe/enforcers around. But the game has changed so much since the 2004 lockout, that clowe as he is today is just a waste of cap space and a roster spot.

Clowe isnt fast enough, is horrendous defensively, brings his team mates down offensively, his fights do nothing for the team (he rarely fights to defend a team mate)

 

[Kegsey]

I love Clowe and I think he was playing through some serious injuries. If you look around the league, when Clowe is really on his game not many players can bring what he brings.

EDIT: I'm also from Atlantic Canada so i'm heavily biased.

 

[Negatively Positive]

Clowe is similar to Murray in that they're big,slow players who play a physical game. For great skaters like a Marleau or Selanne, if they lose a step, they're still at worst average so they can be effective into their late 30's, early 40's. For Clowe and Murray, if they lose a step they might not be NHL material anymore. Just ask Cheechoo. I see Clowe having 3-4 years left because I don't see him playing into his late 30's because he'll be too damn slow. He already had a major knee injury earlier in his career and even with the lockout, apparently he wasn't healthy coming into the season so is he ever gonna be healthy?

 

[dwood16]

Couture has been just fine without Clowe this entire season. Even now that Clowe is back he's not playing with Couture. Why? Because he is dragging him down defensively and offensively. Marleau - Couture - Wingels is a much better grouping right now.

Wingels is tough, Thornton is tough, Burns is tough, Desjardins is tough, Burish is tough. We have plenty of forwards who can stick up for other guys and hold their own when needed. Clowe isn't scaring anyone away, the instigator rule keeps that from happening. Murray barely fought and couldn't hit anymore because he couldn't skate anymore. You guys are massively over-rating Clowe's utility.

On defense Stuart is plenty tough, Boyle is never to be under-estimated, and Burns is big if he goes back to defense. Plus Petrecki coming up who is as tough as it gets.

If tough means gets their ass kicked anytime they drop the gloves and badly ..then you are right about Burish and Petrecki. "as tough as it gets" though ..hahaha come on.

Seriously though, Clowe is a guy who sticks for all of his teammates and does it by beating the offending player up badly. That's a pretty nice thing to have around your star players. Ask Gretzky about McSorley. There are certainly repercussions for running the stars when Clowe looms. Just saying.

 

[Negatively Positive]

If tough means gets their ass kicked anytime they drop the gloves and badly ..then you are right about Burish and Petrecki. "as tough as it gets" though ..hahaha come on.

Seriously though, Clowe is a guy who sticks for all of his teammates and does it by beating the offending player up badly. That's a pretty nice thing to have around your star players. Ask Gretzky about McSorley. There are certainly repercussions for running the stars when Clowe looms. Just saying.

There's this thing called the Instigator. Guys can cheapshot and refuse to drop gloves and if you go after them you get kicked out and put your team on the PK forever.

 

[dwood16]

There's this thing called the Instigator. Guys can cheapshot and refuse to drop gloves and if you go after them you get kicked out and put your team on the PK forever.

Really? I've never heard of that.