Speculation: Do You Want Gerard Gallant Fired?
- Thread starter EdJovanovski
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effen
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2003
- 12,683
- 10,827
Why does any chucklehead here think they have any goddamn idea what Jed Ortmeyer or Tanner Glass instruct guys on? Absurd.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Honest question: if you think Gallant sucks, who's a good coach?
Gallant was regarded (by this board too) as one of the best.
You can't just look at the standings and give me the flavor of the month. Nobody was clamoring for Montgomery or Brunette before this year.
I tend to think they're mostly interchangeable. Every team emphasizes forechecking and royal road. Hockey isn't in a tactically diverse enough meta right now for them to matter that much. And they all have weird habits.
The only one I actually harbor resentment for is AV, and it's not because of performance, it's because he sabotaged his front office by torpedoing acquisitions. Regardless of what you think of guys like Keith Yandle and Eric Staal, that wasn't his decision to make.
I digress. Point is, the next coach is going to either start gangbusters on offense but we'll be 33rd in corsi in a 32 team league, and then we'll either continue to struggle or he'll go back to 2-1 games. Or it'll be the same thing, and he'll end up making the same decisions, because he'll realize that's all we have. Every coach is going to be forced into that because we don't get enough out of the forwards as an organization.
The only potential difference I see, is that if we get a real hardass, he won't put up with "Panarin runs the team" and maybe we get more out of him.
That's not insignificant but it's also not solving all of the problems people want solved.
Gallant was regarded (by this board too) as one of the best.
You can't just look at the standings and give me the flavor of the month. Nobody was clamoring for Montgomery or Brunette before this year.
I tend to think they're mostly interchangeable. Every team emphasizes forechecking and royal road. Hockey isn't in a tactically diverse enough meta right now for them to matter that much. And they all have weird habits.
The only one I actually harbor resentment for is AV, and it's not because of performance, it's because he sabotaged his front office by torpedoing acquisitions. Regardless of what you think of guys like Keith Yandle and Eric Staal, that wasn't his decision to make.
I digress. Point is, the next coach is going to either start gangbusters on offense but we'll be 33rd in corsi in a 32 team league, and then we'll either continue to struggle or he'll go back to 2-1 games. Or it'll be the same thing, and he'll end up making the same decisions, because he'll realize that's all we have. Every coach is going to be forced into that because we don't get enough out of the forwards as an organization.
The only potential difference I see, is that if we get a real hardass, he won't put up with "Panarin runs the team" and maybe we get more out of him.
That's not insignificant but it's also not solving all of the problems people want solved.
Gallant was canned in vegas in second place in their dovision. Granted the record wasnt as good as this year.
And he was also fired in Florida after being the runner up for the jack adams award the year before.
He really has a history of getting fired quickly even after having good seasons.
There is definitely reason. And we are seeing it unfold.
Also in both those stints. His teams got preogressively worse each year he was there.
Maybe, just maybe… its because he is a shitty coach.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
The Rangers at least 5v5 are a better team this season than last season so that doesn't seem to be an issue so far.
We can talk about systems and what not all day long but I don't really think where the Rangers are in the standings is out of line with the amount of talent they have. If it's all systems then why is it that in Vegas under Gallant, they were 4th in corsi for/60 and 2nd in xG/60, yet the Rangers under Gallant they are 24th and 23rd?
- Jan 18, 2012
- 35,202
- 53,767
because we look like a team of Ortmeyers and Glass at forward LOL
I'd love for you to do video sessions with them and break down your YouTube videos
effen
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2003
- 12,683
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Kreider just had 50 goals and Ziba went from a guy forced to wing to a legit 1C because of what, fairy dust and unicorn farts? Surely no one worked with them for years. Such a dumb f***ing narrative.
Always an appeal to some evil authority figure as opposed to the guys actually on the ice. I really don't get it.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Between the 13-14 team and Panarin in 19-20, I'm finding that my ideal approach to hockey is being coached by John Tortorella last year but a guy who doesn't give a toss this year.
Unfortunately, I don't think one guy can do both of those.
Unfortunately, I don't think one guy can do both of those.
- Jan 18, 2012
- 35,202
- 53,767
Bc those stats dont tell a whole lot. It actually tells nothing about systems at all.
It just tells me that one team took a ton more shots and because they took more shots, they expected more goals.
And vegas’s scf year they alwere 13th in corsi. In fact as vegas’ corsi for went up… the team won less and got worse! And the xgf was ranked 9 for the three years he was there.
And finally vegas in the almost three season without him are still ranked top 10 in both corsi and xgf…. So really there is no difference in those metrics with or without him. They are in fact just a good team.
And florida his team was 16in cf and 8th in xgf for his two full seasons there.
And im not sure our team is better 5v5. We might get more shots, but our chances are pathetic and we definitely are not creating anything in transition this year.
I mean right now we are like 7th in corsi for but towards the bottom in xgf.
All stats i pulled were 5v5 from natural stat tricks .
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
- 22,835
- 13,558
You’re looking at the wrong numbers - they’re 13th and 21st; 7th in CF% and 17th in xGF% (NST). Not sure why EW has slightly different numbers considering they’re scraped from the same source.
I think those xGF are a bit off too since the privately tracked data from Sportlogiq and Vally suggests they’re better at generating chances than the public xGF models. I’ve noticed a ton of issues with public xGF and have highlighted some of them this year. A recent one was a royal road one-timer from Kakko only having a 7% chance of scoring yet a point shot was something stupid like 34%.
Chaels Arms
Formerly Lias Andersson
The older I get the more I think about coaching and goaltending in the NHL in a similar manner. There's a few outliers who really are doing something better than everyone else which allows them to be successful for longer stretches of time than the rest of the pack and the other 95% are interchangeable. I'd put Lundqvist, Trotz and Darryl Sutter in that outlier category. For everyone else, someone will blow up and get tons of accolades then disappear into oblivion a few years later. Look at the list of Jack Adams award winners. It's littered with people who were darlings of the hockey media and HFboards for one or two seasons then became distinctly unfashionable.
Gallant does tons of dumb stuff but if he were gone all that would happen is we'd bring in another coach who would do different dumb stuff. You're flipping a coin as to whose dumb stuff is less damaging.
Gallant does tons of dumb stuff but if he were gone all that would happen is we'd bring in another coach who would do different dumb stuff. You're flipping a coin as to whose dumb stuff is less damaging.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Sometimes it's not even different.
I don't think there's a coach in pro hockey that wouldn't give a guy like Goodrow too much leash. He's paid his dues and looks like he's doing things.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Something new would be nice. We thought we were getting that with Quinn, but we just got the old guy who hadn't been an NHL coach yet. What's the plan with Knoblauch? Lots of successful teams have basically used the AHL to "develop" their own coaches, integrate a coach's vision and system into the foundations of the organization. And it seems to have worked very well for Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Colorado. Minnesota did this with Evanston. Toronto with Keefe. Montreal went out on a big limb with St. Louis and I think aren't disappointed with early returns.
Not saying that Knoblauch is that guy, necessarily, because, frankly, the Rangers have never demonstrated that kind of long-term vision or investment that would make me think they were capable of identifying Knoblauch as a 'coach of the future.' But it seems ideal to bring in someone who 1) knows the organization well and 2) has a distinct vision for your roster.
To be clear, I'm definitely in the 'who cares' group about Gallant, but I think it's safe to say that he's neither of those things.
EdJovanovski
#FreeRempe
Me. I would literally be a better coach than Gerard, my track record speaks for itself
Just keep in mind, the one coach that won a Stanley Cup in 83 years for us was responsible for orchestrating the following youth for vets trades...........
Darren Turcotte (25) and James Patrick (30) for Steve Larmer (32) and Nick Kypreos (27). Larmer would play 1 average season after the Cup and retire. Kypreos was a below average 4th liner on 94-95 and part of 95-96 before going to Toronto.
Tony Amonte (23) for Brian Noonan (28) and Stephane Matteau (23). Noonan would have a decent 94-95 season before going to St. Louis. Made a brief return in 96-97 and was unremarkable for 40'ish games before.going to the Canucks. Matteau was pretty bad in 94-95 and early 95-96 before also going to St. Louis.
Mike Gartner (33) for Glenn Anderson (32). A wash regarding age difference, but Anderson was gone after 94.
Todd Marchant (20) for Craig MacTavish (35). MacTavish was gone after 94.
Every player that we traded in 93-94 was an impact player for at least several years afterwards. None of the players we received did much of anything past 94.
Darren Turcotte (25) and James Patrick (30) for Steve Larmer (32) and Nick Kypreos (27). Larmer would play 1 average season after the Cup and retire. Kypreos was a below average 4th liner on 94-95 and part of 95-96 before going to Toronto.
Tony Amonte (23) for Brian Noonan (28) and Stephane Matteau (23). Noonan would have a decent 94-95 season before going to St. Louis. Made a brief return in 96-97 and was unremarkable for 40'ish games before.going to the Canucks. Matteau was pretty bad in 94-95 and early 95-96 before also going to St. Louis.
Mike Gartner (33) for Glenn Anderson (32). A wash regarding age difference, but Anderson was gone after 94.
Todd Marchant (20) for Craig MacTavish (35). MacTavish was gone after 94.
Every player that we traded in 93-94 was an impact player for at least several years afterwards. None of the players we received did much of anything past 94.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Yeah, your track record speaks for itself, alright.
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Well, history should never forget how much Brian Leetch carried that team in the postseason.
will1066
If you score four, you better f'n win the game
- Oct 12, 2008
- 52,054
- 75,041
LMAO here I kept thinking Quinn has a son who plays in the NHL?
Agree, a performance for the ages. I would argue that if we didnt make any of the deadline trades, we have an easier path to winning the cup. Matteau came up huge against NJ, but the rest didn't do much in the playoffs. Anderson got 2 easy goals vs Vancouver and that was basically it.
I do think the Larmer trade was the one that put them over the top. The others, I think they hindered the team overall. They lost a lot of speed and goal scoring ability. Without those trades, assuming they stood pat, we go into the playoffs with
Graves-Messier-Amonte
Larmer-Tikkanen-Gartner
Olczyk-Nemchinov-Kovalev
Gilbert-Hudson-Kocur
Extra: Kypreos, Hartman
Leetch-Beukeboom
Lowe-Zubov
Wells-Karpovtsev
Extra: Lidster
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
I'm not looking at the wrong numbers, those numbers included Gallant's entire tenure with both teams. I'm making an assumption that I feel is pretty solid that his systems haven't changed and yet the results have been drastically different. Point being I think coaches impacts are overrated and overstated and it's talent that is what matters. Also as far as whether or not xG models are off or not, maybe but I think generally the public ones do a good enough job and those individual plays aren't worth dissecting when analyzing a large amount of data. I doubt it changes much.
hackeyman
Registered User
- Jun 26, 2018
- 3,027
- 3,279
The reason in Florida is the owner and his crony friends thought they knew more about hockey then they did because they were introduced to advanced analytics but they knew SFA and missed the playoffs 4 consecutive years despite Barkov , Hubredeau , and Ekblad maturing into star players (they were kids when Gallant had them) . Plus they added one of the best goalies in the league. You are wrong FLA didn't get progressively worse. They barely missed the playoffs his first year which was a big gain from the previous year under another coach and in the second year they were first in the atlantic. SO HOW IS THAT PROGRESSIVELY WORSE ? GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT ! The 3rd year he was fired after 22 games despite the team having been hurt with injuries of key players and upon their return were starting to win. Tom Rowe the genius GM who fired Gallant and suceeded him as interim coach doesn't have a job in professional hockey now. WHAT THE f*** DOES THAT TELL YOU ?
The reason for his firing in Vegas is not as clear cut but we do know he raised expectations exceptionally high and some of the management and the owner saw themselves as mostly responsible for the results. They did not progress from their "miracle " year but that can expected. The third year had a lot to do with Fleury not being emotionally fit because of his dad being ill (something that was brought to light afterwards). The team was changing players and the character of the team so there were also adjusments. The team got richer and deeper in talent and had a decent 2 years but still no SCFinals and last year missed the playoffs despite having arguably the best roster in the NHL(although they did suffer some injuries). We'll see how they do this year in the playoffs.
And different than Florida the Vegas management are smart hockey people BUT we did see them treat people poorly and I think it will come back to haunt them. What they did to Gallant and Fleury was ridiculous and low class. Btw their winning percentage was .551 when they fired him.
One of the reasons that has been given for Gallant running into trouble with management is that they say he is not an analytics guy. That is not true but I think he sees analytics as giving suits an artificial hockey knowledge they don't posess from experience and real hockey know how. He was actually the first guy that said so out loud anyways that some players would learn to play towards their analytics.......something that has proven true.
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This is a solid post except for the Yandle/Staal part. I did a libero on each of those guys before we got them and they were nubs/shot. Same with Shatty on STL and Wash.
- Can't believe Steve Cohen wants his hitters to hit like Eric Hinske.
- Rick Pitino is the GOAT developer and he wasn't exactly Pete Maravich.
- Ortmeyer and Glass aren't coaches.
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