Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

[HamiltonNHL]

can't say i'm surprised some of our fans are actually defending Dumbass over his mishandling of these negotiations considering i went through this with the hoard of Burke supporters who would die before admitting he ever made a mistake and we were going no where under him , lol

They defend based on emotion not the facts ma'am.

 

[rumman]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
People need to get some perspective on the Nylander signing.
Here is the list of forwards who will be playing next year for a cap hit plus or minus $250,000 of what Nylander will be paid ($6,962,366):

David Krejci $7,250,000
Max Pacioretty $7,000,000
Evander Kane $7,000,000
James van Reimsdyke $7,000,000
Patrice Bergeron $6,875,000
Ryan Kesler $6,875,000
Johnny Gaudreau $6,750,000

Of this list who would you rather have going into next year rather than Nylander?
Bergeron and Gaudreau are no-brainers, but after that who would you rather have?

with the exception of Bergeron and Johnny Hockey what's your point? I could care less when other teams sign players to stupid contracts, however I would prefer the leafs not follow suit.

 

[Bomber0104]

can't say i'm surprised some of our fans are actually defending Dumbass over his mishandling of these negotiations considering i went through this with the hoard of Burke supporters who would die before admitting he ever made a mistake and we were going no where under him , lol

Those were the good 'ol days.

Don't lie though hotpaws, Burke had way more and way worse fanboys than Dubas!

 

[leafs in five]

Read about it. Its legal there in NY and Virginia.

seems like a totally normal thing to use to explain your feelings about a contract extension

 

[donkshow]

You guys are acting like we just signed some 2nd line plug. It's completely laughable. What did you want him to sign for? 7 million?

 

[Jack Bauer]

They long term locked many early. We have to see if other teams disregard our method. For the good of hockey, i hope they do. The way Dubas is makimg contracts you will have league kings and league peasants.

Lilj Dermott Sandin KK and AJ are all thinking the same... There isnt going to be much left when i am up. Maybe i should hold out for trade etc.

The league shifting to more of an NBA dynamic has been obvious to anyone paying attention.

In order to avoid that "for the good of hockey" as you say you need to raise all the minimum's...like triple them...so ELC's make closer to $1.5 mil and veteran minimums are at that same level.

Otherwise it's just a larger/more rapid example of how real life works.

Inflation pushes more money to the upper tier of people, in this case talent.

The end result of a higher salary cap isn't higher salaries for 3rd/4th line talent. It's more money to the stars driving the revenue.

So you end up eventually having little to no middle class. A very large lower class. And an upper class that ultimately drives your overall success.

We will see if Dubas' negotiations causes a negative chain reaction for everyone else trying to deal with short term and higher aav's along with insane bonus structure only we and a rare few can afford to do. I have a hard time believing a Point or Laine just signs a team friendly "MacKinnon like" deal now.

 

[4thline]

Hint: "Smart people" don`t compare Matthews to Crosby

Hint: The statement "Matthews can't be compared to Crosby" is the (poorly worded) expression of a conclusion that came from guess what, a comparison.

Matthews is worse than Crosby, he signed for 2.7% less cap (15.6% relative cap) than him on the same term.
McDavid is equal to Crosby, he signed for .6% cap less (3.4% relative cap) than him, and gave up 3 extra years.

If you use the standard @thewave uses to normalize Matthews to 8 years to Crosby (add 1% per year):
McDavid is equal to Crosby, he signed for 3.6% less cap (17.7% relative) to what Crosby should have gotten for 8 years


Which comparison seems more out of wack?

 

[Bomber0104]

Can you guys show me the public comments from Exec's saying that the Matthews deal is terrible? It is public knowledge that Matthews signing out of his ELC in terms of % of the cap is similar to what Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews did as well coming out of ELC.

But I guess we can continue to make up stories in how NHL Exec's have publicly ripped Dubas.


View attachment 184401

That doesn't say any GM's like it...

It says they hate it less than Nylanders.

 

[rumman]

Can you guys show me the public comments from Exec's saying that the Matthews deal is terrible? It is public knowledge that Matthews signing out of his ELC in terms of % of the cap is similar to what Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews did as well coming out of ELC.

But I guess we can continue to make up stories in how NHL Exec's have publicly ripped Dubas.


View attachment 184401

I wasn't aware Pierre LeBrun was a NHL exec?

 

[donkshow]

In the 31 thoughts podcast Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman talk about Auston Matthews being an extremely rare player as there simply aren't centres with the goal-scoring ability he has shown in the NHL.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Well he's only in his 3rd NHL season and played 82 games as a rookie.

He's missed 35 games total over this season and last as an NHL player.

He also had a back injury during his draft year when he played in Europe

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Was it Shanny that said we're not going to be setting the market?

That was Dubas.

On top of everything else, Dubas is a liar too!

 

[rumman]

can't say i'm surprised some of our fans are actually defending Dumbass over his mishandling of these negotiations considering i went through this with the hoard of Burke supporters who would die before admitting he ever made a mistake and we were going no where under him , lol

Leaf Nation at times reminds me of the Jones Town Cult, get a grip and don't drink the Kool Aid.

 

[Jack Bauer]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
People need to get some perspective on the Nylander signing.
Here is the list of forwards who will be playing next year for a cap hit plus or minus $250,000 of what Nylander will be paid ($6,962,366):

David Krejci $7,250,000
Max Pacioretty $7,000,000
Evander Kane $7,000,000
James van Reimsdyke $7,000,000
Patrice Bergeron $6,875,000
Ryan Kesler $6,875,000
Johnny Gaudreau $6,750,000

Of this list who would you rather have going into next year rather than Nylander?
Bergeron and Gaudreau are no-brainers, but after that who would you rather have?

Maybe Kane simply for the style difference but even that is a stretch.

 

[donkshow]

I wasn't aware Pierre LeBrun was a NHL exec?

He's referring to execs.

I'm also waiting for the quote where Ken Holland said the Matthews signing is worse than the Lucic signing.

 

[Bluelines]

All I have heard past 20 years is about this GREAT US TV deal. But the reality is it has been a PIPE DREAM. Fact is and everyone who travels to US knows it you can't get Leaf games on any network in a sports bar unless you have deal on your laptop and you stay in your hotel room. I do not believe the lawyer weasel. I hope for the players that we move to a different CBA model where the free market reigns. The players have been buying into the words for 20+ years now. The only thing that tells me it may be closer is the actual price being paid for franchises. Because owners don't fork out that cash unless they see something a little more concrete. But again I will wait to see because this has been out there for 20 years now.

The reason why you haven't seen a great TV deal recently is because the last one was signed nine years ago, before the NHL had experienced this incredible growth. This current deal expires in 2020-21. To give you an idea in the scale, the last US deal was $200 million annually, the last Canadian deal signed 5 years ago was $436 million annually.

 

[Jack Bauer]

He also had a back injury during his draft year when he played in Europe

In how many instances do we count "non-NHL" seasons when looking at things like this?

It's grasping at straws. He played an 82 game NHL season at 19 after that year in Europe.

 

[thewave]

The league shifting to more of an NBA dynamic has been obvious to anyone paying attention.

In order to avoid that "for the good of hockey" as you say you need to raise all the minimum's...like triple them...so ELC's make closer to $1.5 mil and veteran minimums are at that same level.

Otherwise it's just a larger/more rapid example of how real life works.

Inflation pushes more money to the upper tier of people, in this case talent.

The end result of a higher salary cap isn't higher salaries for 3rd/4th line talent. It's more money to the stars driving the revenue.

So you end up eventually having little to no middle class. A very large lower class. And an upper class that ultimately drives your overall success.

We will see if Dubas' negotiations causes a negative chain reaction for everyone else trying to deal with short term and higher aav's along with insane bonus structure only we and a rare few can afford to do. I have a hard time believing a Point or Laine just signs a team friendly "MacKinnon like" deal now.

Right. You understand what is going on, the kicker is how teams that dont spend to cap navigate it all. There may end up being middle class teams at the end of this. Blue collar teams of 2nd liners or victims of the squeeze making 4m-6m down the line. Those rounded teams may end up being better than the star studded counterparts.

Perhaps thats the plan. Break the cap system and force overpays while using our strong financial position to fron load and bonus up our contracts. Compete 3 years and trade stars after the CBA then restructure with the casulaties and picks afforded. Pretty out there thinking but??

 

[donkshow]

The only quote I can find about NHL executives commenting on the Matthews deal is that all of the signing bonuses are going to hurt them when negotiating terms.

Has nothing to do with Matthews being an overpaid diva that belongs in the KHL.

 

[RLF]

That is a bit of a stretch no? 99.9% of every NHL GM who was ever hired was fired, you can say that without a doubt almost every GM has failed and therefore their hiring was a mistake and they were not vetted properly. Every criticism of every fired GM is therefore valid. What I'm saying when I have to pick between a person who has experience in a certain field or some one who has an opinion because of observations gleaned from TV, I'll go with the guys who have actual experience. If you need a Doctor are you going to trust a person who is trained to be a Doctor or some soccer mom who just finished watching Gray's Anatomy?



You are not comparing apples to apples, it's OK to say he may have messed up with Sparks because we have a sampling of Sparks poor play to judge that decision. With Matthews signing we have ZERO days to understand if it was a poor decision or a good one. The contract is not even in effect till July 1st.... can we give it time before we start calling Dubas names and before we declare the decline of the TML Shanny plan Empire?

Everyone take a deep breath and lets see what Dubas and team does. Lets wait and see just how high the cap is going to go.

I guess the other option is for Dubas to Nylander the Matthews and Marner contracts and lets see if they get offer sheets, there is the option to let other teams dictate what you pay your players (if you match the offer).

Not trying to get in an argument with you, but man, I think you need to re-read your post I responded to. There is no stretch in what I wrote. You are very clear the GM and Hockey execs knows best and that is what we should trust, not our own opinions and that it is stupid to think otherwise.

Bolded - Again you are saying go with what the GM does over anyone else opinion, but then saying it is different when you disagree(Sparks decision) based on your own personal feelings of what he should have known at that point. You don't see it? There is no difference. It's still a matter of opinion.
You are saying to agree with the GM when and how he does things and how to wait to judge moves...only in the way you agree with. Otherwise one or the GM is wrong.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The reason why you haven't seen a great TV deal recently is because the last one was signed nine years ago, before the NHL had experienced this incredible growth. This current deal expires in 2020-21. To give you an idea in the scale, the last US deal was $200 million annually, the last Canadian deal signed 5 years ago was $436 million annually.

I get that but this was not a new Bettman story back 9 years ago. It was 10 years old back 9 years ago. It just gets punted down the field again.

 

[Bluelines]

In the Nylander threads, Pastrnak was continuously brought up as a comparable. I would discuss goal totals (namely 34 goal final elc year, compared to 20.) But I was repeatedly told that goals don’t matter. Players get paid on p/gp. I want to be clear... this WASNT just a few posters making this argument. In fact, as far as I can tell, I was the ONLY person using goals as a metric, and was told things like I “don’t know hockey” if I thought goals were considered in these negotiations. I would respond saying “Ok, but in the Matthews contract threads, I better not see his goal totals being cited.” And everyone said of COURSE we wouldn’t. Nobody uses goals.

Well, here we are. Goals are mentioned numerous times on every PAGE of this thread.

There is absolutely no consistency.

And I knew this would happen.

I KNEW it.

If people were telling you goals don't matter for players who's primary function is to generate goals, they are fools. A lot of teams are even getting away from points as a way to gauge a players offensive prowess. They are mostly relying on primary assists and goals.

 

[CelticDruid]

" I won’t get into any contract talk, because there’s more than enough of that these days, including a ton of fantastic analysis of the Matthews contract with all its exciting and terrifying implications. Inevitably, the MSM will now turn its focus to the Marner contract in their never-ending quest to raise the collective blood pressure of Leafs Nation. I would encourage our readers to rise above this noise and try to enjoy this Leafs team for what it is the rest of the season – one of the very best collections of elite talent that most of us will see in our lifetimes as fans of this franchise."

Nikhil Dalijeet
Maple Leaf HotStove.

 

[hotpaws]

Those were the good 'ol days.

Don't lie though hotpaws, Burke had way more and way worse fanboys than Dubas!

yup you're right Burkie did have a much larger and much more rabid fan club , lol

i actually miss a few of them including "i smoked pete's meat" or something like that , although one poster in particular reminds me of him , lol

 

[Bluelines]

Not trying to get in an argument with you, but man, I think you need to re-read your post I responded to. There is no stretch in what I wrote. You are very clear the GM and Hockey execs knows best and that is what we should trust, not our own opinions and that it is stupid to think otherwise.

Bolded - Again you are saying go with what the GM does over anyone else opinion, but then saying it is different when you disagree(Sparks decision) based on your own personal feelings of what he should have known at that point. You don't see it? There is no difference. It's still a matter of opinion.
You are saying to agree with the GM when and how he does things and how to wait to judge moves...only in the way you agree with. Otherwise one or the GM is wrong.

Not looking to get in an argument either but you're missing the flaw in both of your arguments. I've effectively illustrated why your thought process is flawed and you've ignored it. You've said your peace and I've said mine. I think we are done with this convo.