Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

[rumman]

I would agree with no reason to call Dubas names.

But the rest...you're doing exactly what you complain others do. Which is not agreeing with ones opinion. Telling people they weren't raised properly or should think before they speak?

You do realize with your statements you also then have to concede that ANY GM ever hired, did a good job and knew better than everyone else. Did you agree with every move guys like Burke, Nonis, JFJ etc did for the Leafs? How about Chiarelli or Mike Milbury? All of these guys were vetted and given GM jobs. If GM's did a perfect job, they would never be fired. They are fallible, otherwise there would be NO NHL teams in a mess capwise or otherwise.



Then you write the above in a later post. So you can think he messed up in one area and that's ok, but no one else can think he messed up somewhere else, like contracts?

You just call out people and tell them they are stupid for not agreeing with the GM and should think before the speak...then go on to write you think he messed up the back up situation. How is that possible if the GM knows best?

I haven't called Dubas any names, but I also am not sure I agree with his vision and how to allocate funds in a cap world...Not sure how that makes me or anyone that feels that way stupid and there is a need to get that slapped out of me/us.

just another example of do as I say, not as I do, it'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Oh, and by the way Blueline, when I grew up we had a saying "sticks and Stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me." Your far to sensitive to some harmless name calling to emphasize the point, I'm sure it doesn't bother Kyle, so don't let it ruin your day.

 

[Slyfox]

I always thought it was smart not playing these guys 20+ mins like other young stars to keep their salary lower but looks like it didn't work out.

 

[Bomber0104]

Sorry i feel you are performing a service and trying to sway the public. I cant find anyone that isnt shilling that loves this deal.

Exactly.

Since McDavid`s contract is way more team-friendly and Matthews is almost completely player-friendly, I guess if you`re a Leafs shill you basically need to go after McDavid and his agent rather than the Leafs management as the problem. Luckily our fanbase isn`t this stupid and can see through such falsehoods.

But it is sad that we have people that think this way in our fanbase. They`d sooner defend incompetent management and see players get overpaid rather than the team sign good value contracts.

 

[thewave]

What is the adjusted number?

Its at pension plan puppets. They break it down and have it at about 13.5 or more on 8 years. The work is shown. Easy read and find.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Matthews has been injured 3 of the last 4 years

Well he's only in his 3rd NHL season and played 82 games as a rookie.

He's missed 35 games total over this season and last as an NHL player.

 

[Bluelines]

Nope. That's split among the 31 other owners.

It's the revenue Seattle generates that is HRR.

Expansion fee is 100% to the other owners.

My bad, I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[rumman]

If you find the GM that loves the deal please @ me.

there isn't one.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Over a 3 years period he has the 2nd highest goals per game rate, while not #1, 2nd is pretty damn high. The guy is only 21 years old, is it possible he will develop into an even better player.

16.5% adjusted? What do you mean adjusted? You do get that the cap is going to go up significantly over the next 2 years eh? The NHL is about to sign a new national television US contract, speculation is it will eclipse the one Rogers signed for Canadian broadcast rights. Seattle expansion, half of that $650 million expansion fee goes to the players. The NHL just signed a deal with MGM resorts to build on the legal sports betting.

The American Gaming Association released some figures that were quoted by Bettman today. He didn’t directly endorse this projection, but he didn’t scoff at it either.

The National Hockey League’s (NHL) annual revenue may increase by $216 million annually due to widely available, legal, regulated sports betting, according to a new Nielsen Sports study commissioned by the American Gaming Association (AGA).

According to Nielsen Sports, greater fan engagement and viewership could boost the NHL’s total annual revenue from media rights, sponsorships, merchandise and ticket sales by 3.5 percent, producing $151 million in new revenue from increased consumption of the league’s products.

NHL announces gambling partnership: What does this mean for the Leafs?
​

You have to understand that the new TV contract is going to be huge for the cap, the NHL HRR is mostly driven by gate receipts, the NHL is a gate driven league. Bettmen has always pursued the NFL model, where TV revenue is the man financial driver, gate and merchandise are 2nd and 3rd. Bettman will get his cash cow US TV deal.

As much as I think Bettman is a troll, he is very adept at growing the business. In a very short period of time, the cap will exceed $100 million per year.

Patience is a respectable trait in a man. I think we could all show a little more?

All I have heard past 20 years is about this GREAT US TV deal. But the reality is it has been a PIPE DREAM. Fact is and everyone who travels to US knows it you can't get Leaf games on any network in a sports bar unless you have deal on your laptop and you stay in your hotel room. I do not believe the lawyer weasel. I hope for the players that we move to a different CBA model where the free market reigns. The players have been buying into the words for 20+ years now. The only thing that tells me it may be closer is the actual price being paid for franchises. Because owners don't fork out that cash unless they see something a little more concrete. But again I will wait to see because this has been out there for 20 years now.

 

[4thline]

Sorry i feel you are performing a service and trying to sway the public. I cant find anyone that isnt shilling that loves this deal.

That's a weak cop out signalling you have nothing to dispute that McDavid's deal is a clear outlier.

Crosby 17.3 x5
McDavid 16.7 x8

McDavid's deal should have been 12.5+ x5

I can't find anyone that can competently assess a trend that hates it. No one loves it. Smart people can see that's a little high but very defensible as market value when you look at the entire landscape of 2nd contracts in the cap era. As a fan it absolutely sucks that we ended up as a contract that is defensible as market value rather than the gifts a couple of other young stars have given.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Look, on 5 years he was deserving of 11% and 12% if you really really love him. Now be prepared to pay 11 to 12% for Mitch. This pattern repeats for all players now. I am only focused on that. Matthews is a Toews Stamkos level player and not Crosby Malkin or McDavid.

Then the same pattern then repeats for everyone else. Meaning Tampa and Winnipeg have way tougher decisions to make due to Point and Laine being RFA as well.

Why are we splitting heirs with this he's in "this" caliber of amazing elite hockey players not "that" caliber of amazing elite hockey players?

I'll happily take all the Toews level players I can get and keep them happy while trying to win a Cup. 1 team out of 31(or 32) every 20 years to so gets a McDavid. That doesn't mean there's some magical salary bar you can't pass if you're not him. If you can it means he and his reps are the ones who screwed up and misread their situation.

I predict Auston Matthews is a LOT happier and content to be signed, playing, and living in Toronto then Connor is being signed, playing, and living in Edmonton.

 

[Kiwi]

And a great one to make an example of for the rest of the team. I don't know that he really dug in though, he was just playing against an amateur. Stamkos threatened to leave as a UFA and actually visited other teams, Yzerman wouldn't budge off of his offer, not even half a million. That guy is hardcore.

I think Shanahan has done a good job to date, with a little luck from the draft lottery, but I believe he has made a fatal error in letting Dubas handle contracts. These aren't just bad, they're ridiculously awful.

I think ridiculously awful is a bit hyperbolic but I'd agree both of those RFA contracts were higher than I would have liked, I don't think we had any leverage over Matthews so he was getting his but the Nylander situation went poorly no matter how you look at it

Nylander didn't agree to a deal until 30 minutes before the deadline, he hung in tough by any definition of the word

 

[Bluelines]

just another example of do as I say, not as I do, it'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Oh, and by the way Blueline, when I grew up we had a saying "sticks and Stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me." Your far to sensitive to some harmless name calling to emphasize the point, I'm sure it doesn't bother Kyle, so don't let it ruin your day.

Not sensitive at all, just calling a spade a spade. It feels like the standard for acceptable behavior has decayed over the last few years. No need for gutter talk.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Over a 3 years period he has the 2nd highest goals per game rate, while not #1, 2nd is pretty damn high. The guy is only 21 years old, is it possible he will develop into an even better player.

16.5% adjusted? What do you mean adjusted? You do get that the cap is going to go up significantly over the next 2 years eh? The NHL is about to sign a new national television US contract, speculation is it will eclipse the one Rogers signed for Canadian broadcast rights. Seattle expansion, half of that $650 million expansion fee goes to the players. The NHL just signed a deal with MGM resorts to build on the legal sports betting.

The American Gaming Association released some figures that were quoted by Bettman today. He didn’t directly endorse this projection, but he didn’t scoff at it either.

The National Hockey League’s (NHL) annual revenue may increase by $216 million annually due to widely available, legal, regulated sports betting, according to a new Nielsen Sports study commissioned by the American Gaming Association (AGA).

According to Nielsen Sports, greater fan engagement and viewership could boost the NHL’s total annual revenue from media rights, sponsorships, merchandise and ticket sales by 3.5 percent, producing $151 million in new revenue from increased consumption of the league’s products.

NHL announces gambling partnership: What does this mean for the Leafs?
​

You have to understand that the new TV contract is going to be huge for the cap, the NHL HRR is mostly driven by gate receipts, the NHL is a gate driven league. Bettmen has always pursued the NFL model, where TV revenue is the man financial driver, gate and merchandise are 2nd and 3rd. Bettman will get his cash cow US TV deal.

As much as I think Bettman is a troll, he is very adept at growing the business. In a very short period of time, the cap will exceed $100 million per year.

Patience is a respectable trait in a man. I think we could all show a little more?

In the Nylander threads, Pastrnak was continuously brought up as a comparable. I would discuss goal totals (namely 34 goal final elc year, compared to 20.) But I was repeatedly told that goals don’t matter. Players get paid on p/gp. I want to be clear... this WASNT just a few posters making this argument. In fact, as far as I can tell, I was the ONLY person using goals as a metric, and was told things like I “don’t know hockey” if I thought goals were considered in these negotiations. I would respond saying “Ok, but in the Matthews contract threads, I better not see his goal totals being cited.” And everyone said of COURSE we wouldn’t. Nobody uses goals.

Well, here we are. Goals are mentioned numerous times on every PAGE of this thread.

There is absolutely no consistency.

And I knew this would happen.

I KNEW it.

 

[4thline]

Exactly.

Since McDavid`s contract is way more team-friendly and Matthews is almost completely player-friendly, I guess if you`re a Leafs shill you basically need to go after McDavid and his agent rather than the Leafs management as the problem. Luckily our fanbase isn`t this stupid and can see through such falsehoods.

But it is sad that we have people that think this way in our fanbase. They`d sooner defend incompetent management and see players get overpaid rather than the team sign good value contracts.

What absolute bullshit. Everyone would rather the team get the players to buy and sign below market value. But when we're in a situation where the players can essentially name their own price holding management to a standard set by one players altruism is silly

 

[Bomber0104]

That's a weak cop out signalling you have nothing to dispute that McDavid's deal is a clear outlier.

Crosby 17.3 x5
McDavid 16.7 x8

McDavid's deal should have been 12.5+ x5

I can't find anyone that can competently assess a trend that hates it. No one loves it. Smart people can see that's a little high but very defensible as market value when you look at the entire landscape of 2nd contracts in the cap era. As a fan it absolutely sucks that we ended up as a contract that is defensible as market value rather than the gifts a couple of other young stars have given.

Hint: "Smart people" don`t compare Matthews to Crosby

If that's the premise of your whole argument, it's trash and should call into question how you view the game of hockey let alone valuing players.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

And on the “is Burke doing a good job” polls from back in the day, it was like 80% that voted “yes”, which shows just how much it takes for this fan base to be honest about the team.

Dubas is doing THAT bad.

LOL.

He's the +1 GM. 1 AAV overpay for everyone so he has to dump roster.

I think the players must not like their work conditions. They want lots of money to make up for the pain. And they don't care about winning like Boston.

That's fine and all. I just can't see Nylander or Matthews living up to these overpay deals. In any serious playoff game we will be the underdogs for their whole contracts.

Zero team chemistry.

 

[thewave]

Then the same pattern then repeats for everyone else. Meaning Tampa and Winnipeg have way tougher decisions to make due to Point and Laine being RFA as well.

Why are we splitting heirs with this he's in "this" caliber of amazing elite hockey players not "that" caliber of amazing elite hockey players?

I'll happily take all the Toews level players I can get and keep them happy while trying to win a Cup. 1 team out of 31(or 32) every 20 years to so gets a McDavid. That doesn't mean there's some magical salary bar you can't pass if you're not him. If you can it means he and his reps are the ones who screwed up and misread their situation.

I predict Auston Matthews is a LOT happier and content to be signed, playing, and living in Toronto then Connor is being signed, playing, and living in Edmonton.

They long term locked many early. We have to see if other teams disregard our method. For the good of hockey, i hope they do. The way Dubas is makimg contracts you will have league kings and league peasants.

Lilj Dermott Sandin KK and AJ are all thinking the same... There isnt going to be much left when i am up. Maybe i should hold out for trade etc.

 

[Jack Bauer]

In the Nylander threads, Pastrnak was continuously brought up as a comparable. I would discuss goal totals (namely 34 goal final elc year, compared to 20.) But I was repeatedly told that goals don’t matter. Players get paid on p/gp. I want to be clear... this WASNT just a few posters making this argument. In fact, as far as I can tell, I was the ONLY person using goals as a metric, and was told things like I “don’t know hockey” if I thought goals were considered in these negotiations. I would respond saying “Ok, but in the Matthews contract threads, I better not see his goal totals being cited.” And everyone said of COURSE we wouldn’y. Nobody uses goals.

Well, here we are. Goals are mentioned numerous times on every PAGE of this thread.

There is absolutely no consistency.

And I knew this would happen.

I KNEW it.

It's all simply finding numbers to suit a narrative.

Never mind, like you said, that on one hand 5 people want it to be 1 stat driving the talk but on another hand 5 others want to use a completely different stat.

Its just like the injury stuff. Before Tuesday at noon Matthews wasn't injury prone. He is now. But McDavid isn't despite missing more games.

But everyone is "unbias" because they're using stats to suit their rage

 

[Throw More Waffles]

LOL.

He's the +1 GM. 1 AAV overpay for everyone so he has to dump roster.

I think the players must not like their work conditions. They want lots of money to make up for the pain. And they don't care about winning like Boston.

That's fine and all. I just can't see Nylander or Matthews living up to these overpay deals. In any serious playoff game we will be the underdogs for their whole contracts.

Zero team chemistry.

We only have two playoff series as a sample size. It’s very small. And on one of those series, Matthews and Nylander played shamefully. Why the hell didn’t this affect negotiations?

 

[rumman]

Not sensitive at all, just calling a spade a spade. It feels like the standard for acceptable behavior has decayed over the last few years. No need for gutter talk.

to all the thinned skinned posters out there, my sincere apologies.

 

[donkshow]

Who is this solo mute GM thou dost speakof ?

If you find the GM that loves the deal please @ me.

Cite them please with quotes if possible.

Can you guys show me the public comments from Exec's saying that the Matthews deal is terrible? It is public knowledge that Matthews signing out of his ELC in terms of % of the cap is similar to what Crosby/Malkin and Kane/Toews did as well coming out of ELC.

But I guess we can continue to make up stories in how NHL Exec's have publicly ripped Dubas.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

and the little snowball made with the Nylander signing keeps rolling down the hill, getting bigger and bigger..........

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
People need to get some perspective on the Nylander signing.
Here is the list of forwards who will be playing next year for a cap hit plus or minus $250,000 of what Nylander will be paid ($6,962,366):

David Krejci $7,250,000
Max Pacioretty $7,000,000
Evander Kane $7,000,000
James van Reimsdyke $7,000,000
Patrice Bergeron $6,875,000
Ryan Kesler $6,875,000
Johnny Gaudreau $6,750,000

Of this list who would you rather have going into next year rather than Nylander?
Bergeron and Gaudreau are no-brainers, but after that who would you rather have?

 

[rumman]

In the Nylander threads, Pastrnak was continuously brought up as a comparable. I would discuss goal totals (namely 34 goal final elc year, compared to 20.) But I was repeatedly told that goals don’t matter. Players get paid on p/gp. I want to be clear... this WASNT just a few posters making this argument. In fact, as far as I can tell, I was the ONLY person using goals as a metric, and was told things like I “don’t know hockey” if I thought goals were considered in these negotiations. I would respond saying “Ok, but in the Matthews contract threads, I better not see his goal totals being cited.” And everyone said of COURSE we wouldn’t. Nobody uses goals.

Well, here we are. Goals are mentioned numerous times on every PAGE of this thread.

There is absolutely no consistency.

And I knew this would happen.

I KNEW it.

 

[hotpaws]

can't say i'm surprised some of our fans are actually defending Dumbass over his mishandling of these negotiations considering i went through this with the hoard of Burke supporters who would die before admitting he ever made a mistake and we were going no where under him , lol

 

[HamiltonNHL]

We only have two playoff series as a sample size. It’s very small. And on one of those series, Matthews and Nylander played shamefully. Why the hell didn’t this affect negotiations?

We should have bridged both. Especially Nylander.