Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

[rumman]

Did you ever think they haven`t lost anyone due to cap issues may be due to two major reasons and has nothing to do with next season;
1- Leafs haven`t had the talent of players in the past that would cause a cap crunch like now. Before now, the best was guys like Phaneuf and Kessel.
2- They traded or let walk anyone that would cause a cap crunch, even what was their best players at the time. JVR, Bozak walked and Phaneuf traded and traded and retained on Kessel just to get rid of his $8M price tag.

So hardly the same as trying to actually KEEP your best players.

When one calls everyone else stupid who doesn`t agree with them...

well put, things aren't always as simple as one might think.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

yup everything LL does is/was luck including his 3 cups

unlike the Dube who made up that very stylish "process vs everyone" t-shirt and bases his mgmt decisions on stats based on shot attempts

Who said everything he did is luck?

Don't you just love when someone invents an argument and then holds THEIR argument against YOU as though you said it? HF intelligent debating 101 right here folks!

I said he lucked into the coach. You'd have to be pretty stupid to argue that having the only job opening and a Cup winner being let go a week later isn't one massive horseshoe.

 

[Al14]

I want to change my vote! From No to f***ING NO!

 

[EXPECT THE LEAFS]

I remember when they made Dubas GM I said this was going to be either really good or really bad. I'm now leaning towards the latter.

 

[rumman]

I remember when they made Dubas GM I said this was going to be either really good or really bad. I'm now leaning towards the latter.

somehow feels familiar..........

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

This guy is a walking Santa for every player in the league. You want to get paid? Play under Dubas, everybody gets what they want. Pathetic, I would like to see him fired along with Babcock.

 

[rumman]

This guy is a walking Santa for every player in the league. You want to get paid? Play under Dubas, everybody gets what they want. Pathetic, I would like to see him fired along with Babcock.

 

[Mess]

Leafs fans are going to see Dubas work and evaluate him much differently once the team for cap reasons will need to start dumping talent and contracts to remain Cap compliant.

Right now with everyone still here and AM and MM contracts not going to be a factor until next season everything appears rosy still.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

I don't understand why the Leafs overpaid for their two premium RFAs Nylander and Matthews on his watch. Leafs seem to have "sucker" on their head. But I will give Dubas some slack. I don't understand why the vast of number of MLSE executives who have a hand in the contract/negotiations agreed to these two contracts.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Did Dubas do any negotiating? Or did he just bend over and say take as much as you want?

He seemed to be happy the deal got done before the trade deadline. Seems like he might have more action for us ahead ?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I am not sure if I have lost faith in the guy. I think it is more that I don`t agree with what seems to be his vision on how and where to spend. Maybe he has some inside information about the cap after next season and it will be at $90+M or something. If so, we should be fine after next year.

Even if the cap really is going up that much, the gm’s that have their players under good contracts will still be in a much better position than the gm’s like Dubas who are handing out horrible contracts.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I want to change my vote! From No to ****ING NO!

I want to change my vote from “no”, to “I’ve never in my life had less faith in anything.”

 

[hector morrison]

Even if the cap really is going up that much, the gm’s that have their players under good contracts will still be in a much better position than the gm’s like Dubas who are handing out horrible contracts.

Much better position to do what? Sign better players? I asked you before. How much would you have paid?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So far the first two have come in about $1.5 M total over what I had hoped at the start of the season. I was hoping 6.5, 8.5 and 10.5. Of course Marner has been lights out so that doesn't help.

That said, how out of whack are they or not?

Just grabbing 3 quick examples, Eichel, Draisatl and Pastrnak all put up 0.93 to 0.94 Pt/GP seasons in their ELC years. They signed respectively for 13.3%, 11.3% and 8.9% of the cap. Marner and Matthews are performing 30% better (Pt/GP) than any of those guys in their ELC year. So far Matthews signed for 13.9% of the cap. Marner remains to be seen. Nylander for all but this year is at 8.3%.

Biggest thing of course is we didn't max out years but when you can demonstrate you are performing (Matthews and Marner) 30% better than those guys above and know what percentages they got.....I guess it's all relative?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Even if the cap really is going up that much, the gm’s that have their players under good contracts will still be in a much better position than the gm’s like Dubas who are handing out horrible contracts.

I don't know that they are horrible so much as market value? The Zaitsev and Marleau contracts are the non market value ones.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Much better position to do what? Sign better players? I asked you before. How much would you have paid?

Eichels numbers weren’t quite as good, so I accept Matthews making slightly higher cap percentage at time of signing at the same term.
Matthews DOES make 1.4% more of cap percentage at time of signing (which I agree with), but it should be over EIGHT YEARS as well to be a comparable. The fact that he got both (higher cap percentage as well as far less term) is what makes his contract horrible in comparison.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

So far the first two have come in about $1.5 M total over what I had hoped at the start of the season. I was hoping 6.5, 8.5 and 10.5. Of course Marner has been lights out so that doesn't help.

That said, how out of whack are they or not?

Just grabbing 3 quick examples, Eichel, Draisatl and Pastrnak all put up 0.93 to 0.94 Pt/GP seasons in their ELC years. They signed respectively for 13.3%, 11.3% and 8.9% of the cap. Marner and Matthews are performing 30% better (Pt/GP) than any of those guys in their ELC year. So far Matthews signed for 13.9% of the cap. Marner remains to be seen. Nylander for all but this year is at 8.3%.

Biggest thing of course is we didn't max out years but when you can demonstrate you are performing (Matthews and Marner) 30% better than those guys above and know what percentages they got.....I guess it's all relative?

You’re using final elc years? Ok, compare Nylanders ppg to Pastrnaks. They both signed for very similar cap percentages at time of signing, and Pastrnak’s included TWO ufa years compared to Nylander’s one.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Eichels numbers weren’t quite as good, so I accept Matthews making slightly higher cap percentage at time of signing at the same term.
Matthews DOES make 1.4% more of cap percentage at time of signing (which I agree with), but it should be over EIGHT YEARS as well to be a comparable. The fact that he got both (higher cap percentage as well as far less term) is what makes his contract horrible in comparison.

While I agree with the years, his ELC year production isn't slightly better, it is 30% better. So if looking at ELC year, Eichel's numbers being "not quite as good" is an understatement.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

You’re using final elc years? Ok, compare Nylanders ppg to Pastrnaks. They both signed for very similar cap percentages at time of signing, and Pastrnak’s included TWO ufa years compared to Nylander’s one.

For quick comparison, yes, I just went with last year and no question, Pastrnak is the best deal of the bunch. That's where it gets tough though. As an example, over the course of their ELC, Nylander had almost identical numbers to Draisatl (if memory serves) but Drai had the definitely better single year. Nylander outdid Pastrnak but Pasta had the better single year. Toss up between weighing one year versus a more well established base.

Interesting will be Laine. His ELC year is seeing him at a lower pace than both Nylander's second and third years. They may luck out and get a sweet deal whereas our two guys are doubling his production in their ELC years.

 

[hector morrison]

Eichels numbers weren’t quite as good, so I accept Matthews making slightly higher cap percentage at time of signing at the same term.
Matthews DOES make 1.4% more of cap percentage at time of signing (which I agree with), but it should be over EIGHT YEARS as well to be a comparable. The fact that he got both (higher cap percentage as well as far less term) is what makes his contract horrible in comparison.

Ok then,at least now you have stated something .
Right, Austons contract on the surface is too much money and not long enough (traditionally speaking). I bet we see more of this kind of pay structure from other teams though because timing of contracts is important,so perhaps that had some bearing on the term? I don't know how far into the future these management teams forecast,but I'm sure they at least take a glimpse!
However, I am satisfied as a fan that Auston didn't get to the same stage as Willy (Leaf Nation would of needed psychiatric help) . Both are signed,along with JT and now only Mitch is left(who cares what he gets paid) as long as he is a Leaf. The window is wide open for this team to be a perennial cup contender. As a fan,I can't expect more than that realistically.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

While I agree with the years, his ELC year production isn't "slightly" better, it is 30% better.

I 100% agree that the final elc year should matter the most out of the 3 elc years. But I was continuously shot down with that argument in the threads discussing Nylanders contract. I would even say things like “that’s all well and good only IF it also applies to Matthews and Marner”. But now, here we are.

Spanning all three elc years, Matthews numbers aren’t anywhere near being 30% better.

See... this is the inconsistency that bothers me so much. When it comes to the leafs players, everyone’s changing all the arguments around for what best fits each individual leaf player. And I knew this would happen.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

For quick comparison, yes, I just went with last year and no question, Pastrnak is the best deal of the bunch. That's where it gets tough though. As an example, over the course of their ELC, Nylander had almost identical numbers to Draisatl (if memory serves) but Drai had the definitely better single year. Nylander outdid Pastrnak but Pasta had the better single year. Toss up between weighing one year versus a more well established base.

Interesting will be Laine. His ELC year is seeing him at a lower pace than both Nylander's second and third years. They may luck out and get a sweet deal whereas our two guys are doubling his production in their ELC years.

Notice how for Matthews it was the “final elc years” that were the crux of the argument? But the very secknd I show how that doesn’t bode well for Nylander, it goes right to “welll... we need more context here.”

Feels like the argument jumps all over the place depending on which leaf we want to rationalize overpayments for.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Ok then,at least now you have stated something .
Right, Austons contract on the surface is too much money and not long enough (traditionally speaking). I bet we see more of this kind of pay structure from other teams though because timing of contracts is important,so perhaps that had some bearing on the term? I don't know how far into the future these management teams forecast,but I'm sure they at least take a glimpse!
However, I am satisfied as a fan that Auston didn't get to the same stage as Willy (Leaf Nation would of needed psychiatric help) . Both are signed,along with JT and now only Mitch is left(who cares what he gets paid) as long as he is a Leaf. The window is wide open for this team to be a perennial cup contender. As a fan,I can't expect more than that realistically.

So now that I’ve shown (and you agree) that Matthews is paid far too much given his term, the argument is now “yeah, well.. maybe other gm’s will overpay as well.”

I don’t know. Again, it seems like you’re more interested in rationalizing these overpayments than you are for fairly analyzing them.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I 100% agree that the final elc year should matter the most out of the 3 elc years. But I was continuously shot down with that argument in the threads discussing Nylanders contract. I would even say things like “that’s all well and good only IF it also applies to Matthews and Marner”. But now, here we are.

Spanning all three elc years, Matthews numbers aren’t anywhere near being 30% better.

See... this is the inconsistency that bothers me so much. When it comes to the leafs players, everyone’s changing all the arguments around for what best fits each individual leaf player. And I knew this would happen.

You should probably take it up with the individuals?

You can look at all my Nylander comparison's for what his value was and I always primarily weighted to final year (while acknowledging that you can't completely discount the whole). I always looked at it that way moreso because I believe the guys paying out the money put much more weight on "today". If they didn't, who could explain David Clarkson? I got roasted over the coals for a long while on here when I immediately called that one out, That said you can probably gamble a bit more on the repeatability of something when they explode that young, as opposed to Clarkson.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You should probably take it up with the individuals?

You can look at all my Nylander comparison's for what his value was and I always primarily weighted to final year (while acknowledging that you can't completely discount the whole). I always looked at it that way moreso because I believe the guys paying out the money put much more weight on "today". If they didn't, who could explain David Clarkson? I got roasted over the coals for a long while on here when I immediately called that one out, That said you can probably gamble a bit more on the repeatability of something when they explode that young, as opposed to Clarkson.

Im critical of the actual contracts being given out, and the rationalizations for them.

Goals didn’t matter for the Nylander Pastrnak comparisons, but they did with Matthews comparisons? How is that fair?

Final elc year didn’t matter much in Nylander comparisons, but now they do with Matthews?

BOTH are overpaid, under hypocritical rationalizations.