Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations? Deux

[JT AM da real deal]

Another angle we havent really considered, what if 5 years is injury insurance? If Matthews shoulder keeps giving him problems, he may be half the player he is now in year 5. Wouldnt be the first time a player is broken down by injuries and the team is on the hook for the rest of the contract; M. Richards, R. DiPietro, etc.

It is my understanding is this is the issue that took time to get figured out. The money side of it was worked out over the holidays. The insurance language and premiums seemed to take forever. Maybe because of his prior injuries and concussion. But dropping AAV from 12.5M to 11.6M to get a 5 year deal that I don't think was worth it. But I am not the GM and he knows what everybody else wants/needs so only thing it tells me is we are freakin close to the CAP next year.

 

[socko]

Matthews better bring his game to another level in the playoffs. And Nylander needs to be moved for a better D. He showed he's not a guy you build a team around. For many reasons.

If only overpaying your players meant you got better performance out of them. In reality, it seldom works out that way. Which is why good GMs don't do that.

 

[IBeL34f]

Man, did Pens fans freak out this much when they signed Crosby and Malkin to 5-year contracts? Some folks around here need to put their crystal balls away and lighten up - This should be such an exciting time for us.

The craziest thing, too, is that the biggest crunch in the foreseeable future is next year, and the cap landscape is poised to go through a complete overhaul before even the half-way point of Matthews' contract, with, as The Joker would say, potential for aggressive expansion. We have Marleau, Horton and Hainsey coming off the books, with an already-rising cap, a new TV deal, a betting partnership, and an expansion coming.

Beyond that, we've got one of the guys responsible for helping craft the current CBA, and a front office that has always, always shown a complete understanding and respect for the salary cap and its implications - That people can be this insecure about the contracts this management team has given to legitimate superstar talent (the likes of which we haven't seen in this city in over a decade) is almost baffling.

Do I wish we'd gotten total sweetheart deals? Absolutely, and these are not those. But to take some minor over-payments to our best players (which will very likely look like fair - if not outright good - contracts by the time these players are actually fully developed) and extrapolate that into a Chicken Little situation, when we've got this much young talent on our team for the foreseeable future, feels like nothing more than an exercise in masochism. Or perhaps it's just wishful thinking...

 

[CarterD]

his salary would be off the cap if he's hurt, but his shoulder's are somewhat concerning.

When he's actually injured yes but repitive i juries can really hamper his abilities

 

[CarterD]

Man, did Pens fans freak out this much when they signed Crosby and Malkin to 5-year contracts? Some folks around here need to put their crystal balls away and lighten up - This should be such an exciting time for us.

The craziest thing, too, is that the biggest crunch in the foreseeable future is next year, and the cap landscape is poised to go through a complete overhaul before even the half-way point of Matthews' contract, with, as The Joker would say, potential for aggressive expansion. We have Marleau, Horton and Hainsey coming off the books, with an already-rising cap, a new TV deal, a betting partnership, and an expansion coming.

Beyond that, we've got one of the guys responsible for helping craft the current CBA, and a front office that has always, always shown a complete understanding and respect for the salary cap and its implications - That people can be this insecure about the contracts this management team has given to legitimate superstar talent (the likes of which we haven't seen in this city in over a decade) is almost baffling.

Do I wish we'd gotten total sweetheart deals? Absolutely, and these are not those. But to take some minor over-payments to our best players (which will very likely look like fair - if not outright good - contracts by the time these players are actually fully developed) and extrapolate that into a Chicken Little situation, when we've got this much young talent on our team for the foreseeable future, feels like nothing more than an exercise in masochism. Or perhaps it's just wishful thinking...

This is exactly what I want to say but 50 times better written.

 

[Paradoc]

so take your pill and move on...........

As long as you have one for yourself.

 

[thewave]

Whatever, Matthews and Nylander went for max money they could squeeze out. They are the first traded when the time comes to get guys like Rielly and Lilj etc signed.

I love my team but am sour on those two people. If even they aimed for fair contracts. Oh well.

Hope AM never sees the C.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Man, did Pens fans freak out this much when they signed Crosby and Malkin to 5-year contracts? Some folks around here need to put their crystal balls away and lighten up - This should be such an exciting time for us.

The craziest thing, too, is that the biggest crunch in the foreseeable future is next year, and the cap landscape is poised to go through a complete overhaul before even the half-way point of Matthews' contract, with, as The Joker would say, potential for aggressive expansion. We have Marleau, Horton and Hainsey coming off the books, with an already-rising cap, a new TV deal, a betting partnership, and an expansion coming.

Beyond that, we've got one of the guys responsible for helping craft the current CBA, and a front office that has always, always shown a complete understanding and respect for the salary cap and its implications - That people can be this insecure about the contracts this management team has given to legitimate superstar talent (the likes of which we haven't seen in this city in over a decade) is almost baffling.

Do I wish we'd gotten total sweetheart deals? Absolutely, and these are not those. But to take some minor over-payments to our best players (which will very likely look like fair - if not outright good - contracts by the time these players are actually fully developed) and extrapolate that into a Chicken Little situation, when we've got this much young talent on our team for the foreseeable future, feels like nothing more than an exercise in masochism. Or perhaps it's just wishful thinking...

more than likely not, because most players at their time were signing either 2-3 bridge years or 5-6 ones

and - again. people can enjoy the young talent on the team and still be pissed off about the contracts given out.

 

[rumman]

more than likely not, because most players at their time were signing either 2-3 bridge years or 5-6 ones

and - again. people can enjoy the young talent on the team and still be pissed off about the contracts given out.

Well said.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well said.

not to mention. as i've pointed out -
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed a 5 year deal. I'm not.
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed for 11.63 million. I'm not.
What is making people upset - for the most part. is that Matthews signed for 11.63m for 5 years with literally nothing in the Leafs favour - and I feel with a contract that rich - with a term that short, the Leafs should have had more control. and if this was the deal - then I don't tink this deal was needed to be ratified right now.

not to mention - as people wanna keep citing Pittsburgh and Chicago and paying young talent.
let's just remind people that when Pittsburgh signed their young stars they've won things had a cup final to their name.
when Chicago paid their young stars, i'm pretty sure they've been to at least the conference finals.

to date. the only thing this team has accomplished is getting to game seven in the first round and blowing it, and a calder cup.

This doesn't mean I don't believe they won't win something, i think they are capable of doing so
this doesn't mean I don't believe they should be paid as great young talent.
but i also believe that some of this payment (or term, or both)should have been predicated on the fact they didn't do anything yet.

none of that - however - impacts the fact that i can still watch and enjoy the team, and want them to do well. I just think it would have been nice - had Dubas been a little bit more Stan Bowman in this regards.

 

[thewave]

not to mention. as i've pointed out -
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed a 5 year deal. I'm not.
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed for 11.63 million. I'm not.
What is making people upset - for the most part. is that Matthews signed for 11.63m for 5 years with literally nothing in the Leafs favour - and I feel with a contract that rich - with a term that short, the Leafs should have had more control. and if this was the deal - then I don't tink this deal was needed to be ratified right now.

not to mention - as people wanna keep citing Pittsburgh and Chicago and paying young talent.
let's just remind people that when Pittsburgh signed their young stars they've won things had a cup final to their name.
when Chicago paid their young stars, i'm pretty sure they've been to at least the conference finals.

to date. the only thing this team has accomplished is getting to game seven in the first round and blowing it, and a calder cup
that'sit

This doesn't mean I don't believe they won't win something, i think they are capable of doing so
this doesn't mean I don't believe they should be paid as great young talent.
but i also believe that some of this payment (or term, or both)should have been predicated on the fact they didn't do anything yet.

none of that - however - impacts the fact that i can still watch and enjoy the team, and want them to do well.

Correct. Marners agent called it like it is. The best contract in the NHL. Nothing team friendly about it.

 

[rumman]

not to mention. as i've pointed out -
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed a 5 year deal. I'm not.
I don't think people are mad (per se) that Matthews signed for 11.63 million. I'm not.
What is making people upset - for the most part. is that Matthews signed for 11.63m for 5 years with literally nothing in the Leafs favour - and I feel with a contract that rich - with a term that short, the Leafs should have had more control. and if this was the deal - then I don't tink this deal was needed to be ratified right now.

not to mention - as people wanna keep citing Pittsburgh and Chicago and paying young talent.
let's just remind people that when Pittsburgh signed their young stars they've won things had a cup final to their name.
when Chicago paid their young stars, i'm pretty sure they've been to at least the conference finals.

to date. the only thing this team has accomplished is getting to game seven in the first round and blowing it, and a calder cup.

This doesn't mean I don't believe they won't win something, i think they are capable of doing so
this doesn't mean I don't believe they should be paid as great young talent.
but i also believe that some of this payment (or term, or both)should have been predicated on the fact they didn't do anything yet.

none of that - however - impacts the fact that i can still watch and enjoy the team, and want them to do well. I just think it would have been nice - had Dubas been a little bit more Stan Bowman in this regards.

my sentiments exactly, although I'm happy for the short term future, but I'd be happier if the long term looked as rosy.

 

[IPS]

Correct. Marners agent called it like it is. The best contract in the NHL. Nothing team friendly about it.

He doesn't mean this in the good context either

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Correct. Marners agent called it like it is. The best contract in the NHL. Nothing team friendly about it.

if he thinks it's the least team friendly contract in the league, he's delusional. he doesn't even have the least team friendly contract on the Leafs

 

[thewave]

He doesn't mean this in the good context either

Oh I know haha. I take it to mean most highly paid player in the NHL all considerations taken. Dubas was clearly only thinking i will be fired by then anyways. Wants glory now, short sighted young man, infer whatever else you like.

 

[thewave]

if he thinks it's the least team friendly contract in the league, he's delusional. he doesn't even have the least team friendly contract on the Leafs

I will trust the guy that works on contract negotiations on this one super chief, no offense.

 

[IBeL34f]

more than likely not, because most players at their time were signing either 2-3 bridge years or 5-6 ones

and - again. people can enjoy the young talent on the team and still be pissed off about the contracts given out.

They can. My post was referring to those going a little farther than just not liking the contracts, though - It's one thing to be upset about it, but to suddenly be able to forecast the doom and gloom I've been seeing around here, just because our high-end players are (so far) making a combined $1.5M more than maybe they should be, is something else entirely. A number of people seem to have managed to become completely blinded by their emotional response to these contracts that they're unable to see the forest for the trees, and that is that we are still set up beautifully moving forward, in terms of cap (beyond 2020), in terms of current on-ice talent, in terms of future assets in our pipeline (both with regards to prospects and picks), and in terms of the looming expansion draft.

What is particularly perplexing is that I'm not sure what anyone expects could have gone any differently - I see a ton of complaints, about a wide variety of things, but do people honestly think Dubas didn't try to get better deals? Who's to say that any other outcome could ever have been reached based on the options presented by these players and their agents? I know many folks are comfortable with trading Nylander over $500K (or just over him being Nylander), but how many people would've preferred we trade Matthews than pay him ~$1M over his current value? How many people, after witnessing the Nylander saga, would've preferred we sit him out until December to shave a couple hundred grand off?

I wish we'd gotten better deals. I spent all summer talking shit about Edmonton and Buffalo for their contracts, believing that these were teams overpaying their star talent to stay in... less than ideal situations... and now here we are. But holy cow, the sky is not falling. The stage is set for us to shed bloated contracts as we need to re-sign our youth, and for us to navigate the expansion draft with relative ease, all while being able to expect a rising cap and further development from our entire core. This is a good time to be a Leafs fan, but you wouldn't know it looking around here.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I will trust the guy that works on contract negotiations on this one super chief, no offense.

Ok so will I, and trust Dubas then. Or does appealing to authority only work if they say what you already agree with?

 

[Morbo]

Ok so will I, and trust Dubas then. Or does appealing to authority only work if they say what you already agree with?

oh snap

 

[budzz]

Dubas is doing fine. Easy to compare other salaries around the league.. "where's the term?" blah blah blah. This ball started rolling with MacJesus, the Draisaitl and Eichel. Difference is, none of those teams had other huge fish to deal with at the same time. Yes Edmonton had Drai and McDavid, but Drai was way overpaid by everyones standards off one good year and decent playoff.

Many in the media have argued that Marner is equally good, and some say better (not me, big young 40 goal center? Sign me up). But Marner is also very very good, Tavares is very very good. (Need to see more of Nylander, I expect more to come) None of these other teams had similar problems. The biggest question will be would you rather sign matthews to his next 8 year max deal at age 25 or 28?

As a long suffering Leaf fan in the big picture, we have waited a long time for a real chance, and with this group we have a LEGIT ticket to the dance.

Things change so quickly... should we really care what might happen in 5 years? "Smart long term management"???

 

[TDotMassive]

So the Nylander camp holds firm and Dubas gives one last offer in the final hours and you spin that as "take it or leave it"?

Try we blinked. Period. Can't believe how we can't just accept that Nylander's camp got it all, pretty much the rest of the league sees it clear as day.

Anyways, when we have to trade people it will all become evident this isn't going to work long term. The math doesn't work, and that's reality in a hard cap world.

I've seen this actually plotted out in The Athletic, and it seems pretty clear they can sort it out without losing anyone. Pridham is as good as they come with the cap... they know better than anyone how it will play out. They have a range for each player they are comfortable with. Gardiner is the only exception (now with Muzzin), hes gone... but other than him, everything fits, even with Nylander at 7m and Matthews at 11+ and Marner at 9-10m. The cap is going up around 5m next season, and with new gambling revenues and Seattle expansion, the cap is projected to hit 100m in the coming few seasons. We can and we will... and guess what, he's almost there. If someone is traded, it'll be a Kappy/AJ type and an RHD will be coming back.

 

[jrgtml67]

Stupid. So nylander got 300 400k too much Matthew's bang on I dont get a lot of you people here. When we keep all 4 and win a cup that's what counts

 

[A1LeafNation]

Kinda looking like Mitch coordinated this whole thing with Ferris and Feschuk well in advance of the Matthews signing and waited until the day Matthews signed to unleash hell.

Classy Mitch Classy.

 

[nuck]

how long did you expect Dubas to hold out for? would you have been happier if Nylander wasn't on the team this year?

but yes, it's completely expected and reasonable that the team will move out depth pieces to keep the core together. that's not a problem

It would have been quite reasonable for Dubas to let Willie sit. Seriously the negotiations with the other two plus KDs own credibility going forward indefinitely would have benefited. If there is one position they could have worked around this year it is a scoring winger. Not to mention Willie is producing Greg McKegg or Matt Martin numbers so far and at this point seems to be have been more a disruption to the team's chemistry rather than the missing piece. Its all hind sight now of course but if KD had a time machine he trades Willie before resigning him. I would hate to think the tipping point was his old "we can and we will" that backed him into a corner and switched him from running the negotiation to letting the agents pull a train on him. I never thought Pesce was a fair deal one for one but given Nylander's piss poor production since coming back it looks like it would have been a smart move if KD is in fact prepping for a Cup run. The depth pieces are the cap friendly ones.

 

[hotpaws]

Stupid. So nylander got 300 400k too much Matthew's bang on I dont get a lot of you people here. When we keep all 4 and win a cup that's what counts

you actually thought Mathews was going to sign for 11.63 for just 5 yrs ?