Do You Believe We should Go All In Over the Next 2 Years?

[francis246]

Wow, if JVR looks that good they might want a 1st for him.

Off the top of my head, if we could get Boeser at 4.5 for the 2024 first, Robertson and Kerfoot/Engvall I would do that in an instant. Not sure that would be enough though.

What about if it was 2024 First, Robertson, Sandin? I think that would probably be the cost to acquire Boeser with Retention.

Probably Boeser + Pick/B or C level prospect for Kerfoot/Engvall, 2024 First, Robertson and Sandin. That might be a bit steep IMO. But something you have to consider. But given the fact Vancouver and Boeser both want a fresh start he may be available cheaper.

 

[ACC1224]

why can't both happen? I think people think going all in means trading every prospect you own. If the leafs trade a first rounder and robertson for example this year? How much of an impact will that have on the team moving forward? probably not as devastating as people are making it out to seem. Matthews doesn't give a damn if the team trades first rounders. What he cares about is, what is management going to do to help him win now. If he is your future guy, you need to start winning now.

Isn't the Dubas era of drafting good? So if we move on from 1 prospect and a first rounder this year, we will be fine. It's not going to cripple the organization at all.

Moving the Robertson, Kerfoot, Engvall types isn't going all in. They have little value to other teams.

 

[Judas Tavares]

why can't both happen? I think people think going all in means trading every prospect you own. If the leafs trade a first rounder and robertson for example this year? How much of an impact will that have on the team moving forward? probably not as devastating as people are making it out to seem. Matthews doesn't give a damn if the team trades first rounders. What he cares about is, what is management going to do to help him win now. If he is your future guy, you need to start winning now.

Isn't the Dubas era of drafting good? So if we move on from 1 prospect and a first rounder this year, we will be fine. It's not going to cripple the organization at all.

As much as it would be tough, trading a 1st + Robertson would be fine. Would be nice if it weren't for a rental or if the rental could somehow sign an extension. But I'd bite my tongue and say that is the cost of doing business. But that is where I would stop. (Or like ok, I'd toss a B prospect here, a 3rd rounder there for another player). But when you mention going all in. I am picturing going more in than just Robertson + 1st. You mention leaving Knies, which is great, but after that, if it is essentially 2023, 2024 1sts, Niemela, Minten, Robertson out the door. That is a little much, and that is what I am picturing by all in.

 

[francis246]

Moving the Robertson, Kerfoot, Engvall types isn't going all in. They have little value to other teams.

Robertson can fetch a good haul, I think a lot of teams look at him and think he's a top 6 guy on their team. He's just not a fit on the leafs. Like I said, I'd move any prospect/pick not named Knies and hope for the best!

 

[ACC1224]

Robertson can fetch a good haul, I think a lot of teams look at him and think he's a top 6 guy on their team. He's just not a fit on the leafs. Like I said, I'd move any prospect/pick not named Knies and hope for the best!

Putting restrictions on who you move isn't going 'all in'.
Robertson could intrigue a team hoping he'll turn into his brother but to date all he's shown is he can't stay in the lineup.

 

[francis246]

As much as it would be tough, trading a 1st + Robertson would be fine. Would be nice if it weren't for a rental or if the rental could somehow sign an extension. But I'd bite my tongue and say that is the cost of doing business. But that is where I would stop. (Or like ok, I'd toss a B prospect here, a 3rd rounder there for another player). But when you mention going all in. I am picturing going more in than just Robertson + 1st. You mention leaving Knies, which is great, but after that, if it is essentially 2023, 2024 1sts, Niemela, Minten, Robertson out the door. That is a little much, and that is what I am picturing by all in.

That makes sense. I think the team would also try and move guys pushing in the AHL first before some of our prospects. Like I can imagine Steeves and Joey Anderson hold pretty good value. The team is moving heaven and earth not to lose Anderson on waivers. So they've probably have gotten calls on him or are aware other teams are waiting for him to go on waivers.

Putting restrictions on who you move isn't going 'all in'.
Robertson could intrigue a team hoping he'll turn into his brother but to date all he's shown is he can't stay in the lineup.

I agree, I think most people would move Knies if we were bringing in an elite young guy with term. For example a Werenski or Bo Bryam for example. (I know that would never happen).

 

[nuck]

All-in kind of varies from club to club. It probably means a lot more if you have a bunch of blue chip prospects in the system which the Leafs do not., or if a team is just hitting their window, I think if Murray is still healthy and performing at the TDL thats a best case scenario for the team and they need to take advantage, but they need to wait until close then to make their big move as they might need those assets for a goalie. If Sammy is still lights out in February maybe they can go earlier, but they do have to go, if that right asset is there.

Are JT and Brodie likely to be better next year? Will KD survive another early exit? This isn't the year to be cautious if they are healthy down the stretch. With Bedard, Michkov, and Fantilli in the next draft, the coming tank battle should see lottery teams moving players like crazy and a buyers market all the way.

 

[Pebble live]

Boeser is not what this team needs in the top 6 in my opinion. He has high top end talent. We have enough of that in the top 6 right now. We need some muscle that can score and create space in the playoffs.

I'd target someone like Jeannot (He'd find his scoring touch beside JT. 41 pts in 81 GP last year, only 6 PTS this year so maybe we can get a sweet deal on him. But he has the tools to be a solid top 6 with edge). He'll be an RFA at the end of this season so it would give the leafs some cost control that they sorely need going into next season with the small increase in cap space we expect to see.

Not sure if Nashville would move him but if they are willing we need to go all in on that. He's 25 yers old and has the potential to be our Tom Wilson type player. Not quite as physically dominant but Tom Wilson's don't come around too often.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Moving the Robertson, Kerfoot, Engvall types isn't going all in. They have little value to other teams.

Who does the competition have that's available and more valuable than Robertson? Only NJ and Winnipeg have a handful of top-75ish prospects and I don't see them going for 1 year rentals with those pieces since it would be overkill, or in Winnipeg's case they'd be looking for retool pieces with term. I can see Dallas being aggressive with the Rangers 1st and a guy like Stankoven but they're already set on wing with a lot of money commited to it (40 mil for their top-9 wings, only Pavelski expiring soon).

Sure Boston can trade a Lysell/Lohrei but it would gut their already shallow pool and wouldn't make sense unless it's for a Chychrun.

As bad as people seem to think our trade assets are, the other contenders have been spending more and drafting worse the past few years, only the young upstart teams like NJ are sitting on a warchest we can't compete with. We could honestly trade every pick we have for the next 3 years and still lose Marlies on waivers because we don't have enough room for everyone.

 

[Peace Frog]

We need a 2nd line LW’er, but do we need a superstar, or do we just need an upgrade on what we currently have? Like one who’s been mentioned already… Bertuzzi. Doesn’t necessarily have to be him, but someone of his ilk

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't really see him playing above 3RD in the next 5 years, Liljegren seems to have the 1RD spot locked up for the foreseeable future and it'll take Niemela a lot of seasoning to be able to replace Brodie's minutes. If Timmins shakes off his injury problems and solidifies himself as a 2RD that's another slot gone.

If Niemela exceeds expectations and ends up being a 2nd pair RD in the next 2 years it would sting, but we can replace his "meets expectations" contributions with a league minimum deal like Benn for the next 2-3 years pretty comfortably imo. The realistic case is that he needs 1-2 years of AHL before stepping in to a sheltered 3rd pairing role, look at how long it took Liljegren and he was bigger and had a more pro-ready skillset. Even then guys like Kral, Villeneuve, and whatever no-name guys the Marlies turn into viable NHL pros in the next two years would be strong competition for that 3RD spot.

I agree on most normal rentals though, I'd only be willing to pay up for a proven winner and difference maker like Kane or O'Rielly. No Folignos or Chiarots.

I'm just thinking in terms of where we'll be at in a few years with no more Muzzin plus Brodie's contract is up after next season, hard to say what level he'll be playing at even if we are able to resign him, Gio isn't likely to be in the picture then so giving up our best D prospect isn't a happy thought. I don't agree with the bolded - way too early to put that kind of ceiling on him IMHO.

What about if it was 2024 First, Robertson, Sandin? I think that would probably be the cost to acquire Boeser with Retention.

Probably Boeser + Pick/B or C level prospect for Kerfoot/Engvall, 2024 First, Robertson and Sandin. That might be a bit steep IMO. But something you have to consider. But given the fact Vancouver and Boeser both want a fresh start he may be available cheaper.

I don't like the idea of parting with Sandin at all. Maybe if it was for the Dman equivalent of Boeser ...

Boeser is not what this team needs in the top 6 in my opinion. He has high top end talent. We have enough of that in the top 6 right now. We need some muscle that can score and create space in the playoffs.

I'd target someone like Jeannot (He'd find his scoring touch beside JT. 41 pts in 81 GP last year, only 6 PTS this year so maybe we can get a sweet deal on him. But he has the tools to be a solid top 6 with edge). He'll be an RFA at the end of this season so it would give the leafs some cost control that they sorely need going into next season with the small increase in cap space we expect to see.

Not sure if Nashville would move him but if they are willing we need to go all in on that. He's 25 yers old and has the potential to be our Tom Wilson type player. Not quite as physically dominant but Tom Wilson's don't come around too often.

I agree with this. Boeser would be so nice to have but IMHO we need some muscle even more, muscle, grit and ideally, some playoff experience. We have enough scoring IMO, our goalies look fantastic, if we could solidify our ability to win 2-1 type playoff games, that's what we really need.

 

[Peace Frog]

I don’t know if he would even be a possibility, but what about Foligno?






Marcus Foligno, that is.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We need a 2nd line LW’er, but do we need a superstar, or do we just need an upgrade on what we currently have? Like one who’s been mentioned already… Bertuzzi. Doesn’t necessarily have to be him, but someone of his ilk

I don't even know if we "need" another top 6 guy. Nice to have, sure. Worth trading top futures assets for, I don't know about that.

The top 6 are humming along pretty nicely IMO, even with rotating someone in and out of that 6th spot on the top two lines. Some more toughness and grit is our biggest need. JMHO.

 

[ACC1224]

I don’t know if he would even be a possibility, but what about Foligno?






Marcus Foligno, that is.

He'd be great as an 'also pick up' but they need to aim higher, IMO.
I like Josh Anderson but I know that's not a popular choice.

Maybe we can get a list going of possible top 6 winger candidates?

 

[nuck]

So, a Stanley Cup if this approach works to its full potential...or another rebuild in the event of failure? They'll obviously continue to try and push forward while Matthews remains under his current contract. They can't leave the possibility of surrounding him with little if they wish to re-sign him though.

But is it necessarily a rebuild if this year doesn't work? If you aren't moving any of the big 4 or gutting the D after they seem to have just turned a corner the odds are still almost the same next season. The absence of the 30th overall pick in 23 or Topi Niermela isn't moving the needle in the next year or two. People are really attached to Knies who I also like so except for him, what asset is a must keep for success in 24 and 25? And really is he a game changer for sure? What if he is the difference between adding a player with term and retention at a position of need?

People want the club to improve but then want it to be done without losing a favorite prospect and that may not be possible in a Cup year. If the team is adding actual players to push for the Cup I think that means more to Matthews and Marner than hypothetical future team mates. Just don't spend coin on another Nick Foligno.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I'm just thinking in terms of where we'll be at in a few years with no more Muzzin plus Brodie's contract is up after next season, hard to say what level he'll be playing at even if we are able to resign him, Gio isn't likely to be in the picture then so giving up our best D prospect isn't a happy thought. I don't agree with the bolded - way too early to put that kind of ceiling on him IMHO.


I don't like the idea of parting with Sandin at all. Maybe if it was for the Dman equivalent of Boeser ...


I agree with this. Boeser would be so nice to have but IMHO we need some muscle even more, muscle, grit and ideally, some playoff experience. We have enough scoring IMO, our goalies look fantastic, if we could solidify our ability to win 2-1 type playoff games, that's what we really need.

I'm not saying he'll never be a top-4 D but it took Liljegren 4 AHL seasons to be ready for a sheltered 3RD role and he was bigger with better tools and better defensive IQ. Maybe without injuries and Babcock you can accelerate that timeline by a season, but that still puts Niemela 4 years out from being ready for serious NHL minutes.

Even if we keep Niemela and he develops on schedule with no hiccups, we're still going to need to spend 4-5 mil on a Brodie replacement unless Timmins or one of the Marlies exceeds expectations and can take over those minutes without a big drop-off, and Niemela is again locked into 3RD minutes until that contract expires.

We need to solve the Brodie situation next offseason and unless someone in-house is ready to step in to those minutes, we're not fixing that hole without a 4x5+ commitment unless there's another Giordano rattling around somewhere ready to take league min.

 

[Stephen]

Why the hell do we need to go more "all-in" than we have over the past 3 years. Our core players are 25. If we have a healthy program with a chance to win over multiple years doesn't that look more appealing than blowing your brains out for 2023 and have nothing to offer in the years when you're trying to keep Matthews and Nylander and Marner around?

Look how long Boston's window of contention has been since the Chara signing. With good drafting and consistently good asset management you can have a program win a cup and still be in contention a decade later, with core pieces moving on.

There's no reason to go 2015 Blue Jays.

 

[therealkoho]

Depends on who it is.

ROR, Timo Meier? That's a BIG price

Tyler Bertuzzi? Still fits the bill as a top 6 LW but he won't cost as much

Is Tyler allowed in Canada again?

 

[therealkoho]

We were all in when we traded for Foligno.

I thought bringing Malgin all in one more time for another kick at the cat or can was as all in as one could get in.

Seriously, we are pretty much at the top of the salary allowance you cannot get more all in than that.

 

[therealkoho]

Oh, as far a Matthews leaving if the Leafs don't win it all. That is the most ridiculous of all arguments. He who gets paid the most should have the most responsibility towards the teams ability to actually win.

 

[Stephen]

Oh, as far a Matthews leaving if the Leafs don't win it all. That is the most ridiculous of all arguments. He who gets paid the most should have the most responsibility towards the teams ability to actually win.

Leafs fans seem to be projecting something from the Kawhi Leonard experience, asking the question of whether we can build an attractive enough program to entice the hired gun to stay.

I don't know what Matthews thoughts are ultimately, but the Leafs go as he goes. This is his team, win or lose.

 

[Buds17]

But is it necessarily a rebuild if this year doesn't work? If you aren't moving any of the big 4 or gutting the D after they seem to have just turned a corner the odds are still almost the same next season. The absence of the 30th overall pick in 23 or Topi Niermela isn't moving the needle in the next year or two. People are really attached to Knies who I also like so except for him, what asset is a must keep for success in 24 and 25? And really is he a game changer for sure? What if he is the difference between adding a player with term and retention at a position of need?

People want the club to improve but then want it to be done without losing a favorite prospect and that may not be possible in a Cup year. If the team is adding actual players to push for the Cup I think that means more to Matthews and Marner than hypothetical future team mates. Just don't spend coin on another Nick Foligno.

This really depends upon how one defines "all in". Based on the OP, I took it to mean the subtracting of the team's best future assets (the top draft choices and top prospects) over the next two seasons. A rebuild only arises if Matthews leaves and the rest of the core (potentially minus Rielly-contract) follows suit. The (hypothetical) 30th overall would be fine to part with due to the team success involved. Niemela should be the tougher loss to project. Moving one also isn't necessarily moving both. Something of value will naturally have to go if the team wants to add (anything of significance).

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Is Tyler allowed in Canada again?

I believe so

 

[Raym11]

Of course they should, will it matter if Matthews & Marner don't completely take over a playoff series? no. No player they can pick up short of Patrick Kane and hoping he cares will do enough going scorched earth

I just pray managements idea this year of "all in" isn't Nick Foligno or Plekanec types

 

[TheGreatOne11]

They have been going all in, they just aren't very good at it.

One of Kane, Toews or O'Rielly will be a Leaf by playoff time. I think they swing big this year. I agree they haven't been good so far, but its going to be a biggggg swing this year.

Show Matthews our commitment to winning it all.