Do you believe in Dubas?

[SprDaVE]

I don't really care at this point I guess? I still think Shanahan and Dubas have assembled some good quality people in the org and have done a lot more good than bad in managing this team at all levels but... I guess it didn't work out so at the end of the day, results matter regardless of how you feel about how they played versus the actual results over the last 3 or so years. Results always matter. The org does have a Calder Cup trophy I guess... yay?

I just don't know and quite frankly don't really care what happens to any of the management people. I'd love for the fans that have hated Shanahan and Dubas for a long time to get their guy (Mark Hunter is still kicking around?) so that they can be happy for just a little bit.

We all want the same thing at the end of the day. I'm still fine with the current setup the Leafs have but can't defend the lack of results anymore nor will I argue any sort of counterpoint that it's not working out right now. Perhaps we need an archaic old school GM for some reason to bring this team back to slightly higher levels of mediocrity. Besides... we all know that if Shanahan and/or Dubas move on to another team they are 100% winning the cup on another team... right? We all know this?

 

[The Management]

I don't really care at this point I guess? I still think Shanahan and Dubas have assembled some good quality people in the org and have done a lot more good than bad in managing this team at all levels but... I guess it didn't work out so at the end of the day, results matter regardless of how you feel about how they played versus the actual results over the last 3 or so years. Results always matter. The org does have a Calder Cup trophy I guess... yay?

I just don't know and quite frankly don't really care what happens to any of the management people. I'd love for the fans that have hated Shanahan and Dubas for a long time to get their guy (Mark Hunter is still kicking around?) so that they can be happy for just a little bit.

We all want the same thing at the end of the day. I'm still fine with the current setup the Leafs have but can't defend the lack of results anymore nor will I argue any sort of counterpoint that it's not working out right now. Perhaps we need an archaic old school GM for some reason to bring this team back to slightly higher levels of mediocrity. Besides... we all know that if Shanahan and/or Dubas move on to another team they are 100% winning the cup on another team... right? We all know this?

This is how I feel.

I think some valid criticism can be levied against Dubas for how the team is currently constructed, but I'm not confident firing him and bringing in someone else is going to fix the problem. I don't think Dubas is just sitting there crunching numbers and analytics all day. I'm sure he has some practical appreciation of what this team is missing.

 

[Dough72]

How do you convince yourself that hiring a person with 0 experience is a good idea? How? And then you let him hire a coach with 0 experience. I don't understand the psychology there, and don't really care to I just wish the Leafs weren't stuck with a pair of self righteous wokesters like Shanahan and Dubas and their insulting quest to "rethink" hockey and life in general.

 

[SprDaVE]

How do you convince yourself that hiring a person with 0 experience is a good idea? How? And then you let him hire a coach with 0 experience. I don't understand the psychology there, and don't really care to I just wish the Leafs weren't stuck with a pair of self righteous wokesters like Shanahan and Dubas and their insulting quest to "rethink" hockey and life in general.

I think it's a bad argument to say that zero experience = bad. How much experience did Jon Cooper and Steve Yzerman have when they took over the Lightning? 0 NHL coaching/managerial experience. Brisebois also had 0 NHL GM experience when he took over for Yzerman. And now the argument becomes "Well Yzerman was a quality NHL player" ... but playing is not the same as managing/coaching, just ask Wayne Gretzky.

Hire good smart people. It's simple. Will it work out? I don't know. It hasn't for us. It has for many other teams. These people have to start somewhere, right? And the good ones are not fired very often or available because they are good at their jobs and they don't get fired... so how do you find your own Jon Cooper or Brisebois? You hire them.

 

[MarMarSab3]

I've lost all faith in Dubas righting this ship and even less faith with Sheldon Keefe as a head coach

 

[WickedPegJets]

Absolutely not and I never did from the day he was promoted.

Leafs management feared losing the promising young Kyle Dubas to another team so they told him that he will their GM as soon as he learned sufficiently from Sweet Lou Lamarello.

 

[ACC1224]

How do you convince yourself that hiring a person with 0 experience is a good idea? How? And then you let him hire a coach with 0 experience. I don't understand the psychology there, and don't really care to I just wish the Leafs weren't stuck with a pair of self righteous wokesters like Shanahan and Dubas and their insulting quest to "rethink" hockey and life in general.

It was always doomed to fail, many saw it coming a mile away.

 

[justashadowof]

I'm reading a lot of theories in this thread why Dubas is seen as unfit for his position. I think in the end he's unfit because he lives in the ethereal world of "what should be" rather than "what is." This trickles down to the composition of the team, how he deals personally with his contracted performers, how he hires for his front office, his embrace of the advanced analytics snake oil, how he sources his team's support talent, how he presents himself to the public. I held out some hope that his lip service was a cynical 4D chess pandering to the current cultural zeitgeist but actually think he may believe it all.

Maybe most damning about this new era GM is how many times he's made moves that I've speculated about (what do I know about building a championship NHL team?): signing Spezza (and Thornton and Bogosian), trading a 1st to move Marleau and keep both Kapanen and Johnsson, sign an OHL player this fall, try rushing Robertson to the NHL lineup, sign a 1a/1b goalie (Mrazek), re-acquire a 1st to dampen the loss of the 1st to Carolina.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I've lost all faith in Dubas righting this ship and even less faith with Sheldon Keefe as a head coach

This

 

[Bomber0104]

Leafs management feared losing the promising young Kyle Dubas to another team so they told him that he will their GM as soon as he learned sufficiently from Sweet Lou Lamarello.

Yep and once upon a time John Chayka was also thought of as the GM of the future.

Turns out both of these guys were total frauds and Shanahan got totally fooled with the analytics snake oil.

Easy to see for those of us with a discerning eye (and there were only a few of us at the beginning).

Fast forward just three years and it's now the consensus opinion.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Saw this on twitter this morning and I'd have to say this is exactly how I see this as well.

People will always reference our core 4 and their contracts being the reason we have failed. Tjhe narrative has always been how those 4 contracts have caused us to have an inability down the lineup that causes us to lose games. When in actuality, it is those players, Mitch and Auston specifically, that no show in the moments we need them. Not the depth pieces that surround them. In fact, our season today is a personification of that sentiment. through 6 games, only Willy has shown up from our core 4 pieces. Our depth has actually been the only bright spot.

No GM on the planet would have gotten rid of Mitch or Auston prior to the end of last year. I am not willing to discuss this further. If anything, Willy would have been the one to go. Who just so happens to be the only player elevating their game as of late. So we can also see a situation where holding tight is the right call.

At the end of last year, and with the same results that we had seen in the previous 4 years, it's fair to assume that change could have occurred then. This is where Dubas is separating himself from the pack. Should this season fail in the same or greater capacity, he will have to wear this. Which is entirely fair.

Mitch and Auston are not stepping up. No one else is to blame for that. They are expected to be our difference makers, not passengers. Ask yourself how great Edmonton would be if McDrai went pointless for 3 straight games? I can tell you, we did that exact thing last year during a 3 game season series with the oilers. McDrai were held off the scoresheet for the most part and we absolutely waxed them. Point being, When your best players no show, your team does not win most of the time. It's really that simple.

We have seen for a while that Mitch and Auston do not elevate their games when the temperature rises. I am not sure they ever will in Toronto, but I am still not willing to press the eject button after 6 games lol.

Trust me, The 2018-21 Leafs have been the most unlikeable Leaf team I can ever recall. I am more than open to a change in direction. I just don't think it's all that odd that Kyle and Shanny have a deep support and belief for 2 of the most talented players to ever where a Leafs uniform.

I expect changes to the core if we fail once again, and I remain very confident in Kyle and Shanny TBH. At the end of the day, they have supported Mitch and Auston more than enough. It's time they fulfill their end of the bargain IMO.

 

[egd27]

Brisebois also had 0 NHL GM experience when he took over for Yzerman. And now the argument becomes "Well Yzerman was a quality NHL player" ... but playing is not the same as managing/coaching, just ask Wayne Gretzky.

BriseBois spent nine seasons with the Montreal Canadiens after joining the organization on September 1, 2001, as director of legal affairs.
In July 2003, he added director of hockey operations to his duties.
He was named vice president of hockey operations on July 24, 2006. In this capacity, BriseBois oversaw the Canadiens' AHL affiliate, the Hamilton Bulldogs.
On July 16, 2010, BriseBois was hired by Lightning general manager Steve Yzerman to serve as assistant general manager.
On September 11, 2018, BriseBois was named as general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning

So almost 17 years in NHL organizations before becoming a GM....not exactly no experience.

 

[makbeer]

Jared McCann already has 3G and 3A - he has more points than Marner Matthews and Tavares combined. And we let him go to keep Justin Holl.

 

[SprDaVE]

BriseBois spent nine seasons with the Montreal Canadiens after joining the organization on September 1, 2001, as director of legal affairs.
In July 2003, he added director of hockey operations to his duties.
He was named vice president of hockey operations on July 24, 2006. In this capacity, BriseBois oversaw the Canadiens' AHL affiliate, the Hamilton Bulldogs.
On July 16, 2010, BriseBois was hired by Lightning general manager Steve Yzerman to serve as assistant general manager.
On September 11, 2018, BriseBois was named as general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning

So almost 17 years in NHL organizations before becoming a GM....not exactly no experience.

The point was there was zero Head GM experience right? Dubas is younger but has had plenty of experience in the front office before taking over... but somehow he has zero experience while Brisebois does? Can't have it both ways.

Also, how many years did Yzerman spend in a front office before taking over the Lightning years ago? But yes, Brisebois did/does have a longer resume in a front office.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Kid prez hires kid GM who hires kid coach .. too much inexperience .. too much learning on da job .. constant weakening of team each and every year due to overpays of players relative to CAP (not team) .. signing big 3 all forwards so no understanding of team building .. major strategic errors of mgmt has led to this and it will only get worse

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I had forgotten that Boudreau was still unemployed. I would be very happy with him as coach.

Ya...I am going to pass on the Boudreau thing...the last thing this team needs is a guy who has proven to not be able to win in the playoffs. They, if anything, need a guy who has done it and done it with several teams to get the monkey off their back. The players know that management is lost right now as far as how to fix the problems...and they have very little, if any, confidence which leads to under performing.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

At least Marner won a memorial cup

Dubas didn't win anything. His brand of hockey has won him a Calder cup and nothing else.

Dude didn't even win the OHL for all the hype he gets

But Dubas did it with a small market team and low player payroll due to his advanced analytics....oh wait...

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Sure, I believe in Dubas. I also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy and that we can power the planet with windmills, solar panels, fairy dust, and unicorn farts.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Lost faith since the Columbus series. The Montreal series all but confirmed dubie doesn’t have a clue whatsoever about what elements make up a winning team in the big leagues.
Stand up guy for sure, but he’s nowhere close to cutthroat enough to make the moves necessary to win in this league. Listening to his chat with marner before game 7 on the all or nothing series made me laugh my ass off. He looked so deathly afraid of telling marner to his face that he needs to perform better.

If anything, that All or Nothing showed me that coaches and management are not very direct with the players. They kind of do the passive aggressive routine when they are trying to get more out of them. The whole thing with Vesey was shocking because Keefe should have directly said "If you're not scoring...hit someone or be great defensively"...he didn't do that...he just alluded to Vesey being vanilla. WTF is that? How is a player going to get the right message of what the team wants when you are tip toeing around what you mean?

The Leafs management knows the problems...they just don't know how to fix it without making a big trade that they are worried will come back to haunt them one day. Watching Hyman explode in Edmonton is going to further prevent them from making a significant deal. It will be someone else who does the trading...these guys are paralyzed..much like the players.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yep and once upon a time John Chayka was also thought of as the GM of the future.

Turns out both of these guys were total frauds and Shanahan got totally fooled with the analytics snake oil.

The biggest problem is that despite wanting to use analytics, Dubas isn’t really an analytics guy. He’s just a non-hockey guy who think analytics will make him smart, but he’s not quite bright enough to apply them appropriately.

 

[Racer88]

Jared McCann already has 3G and 3A - he has more points than Marner Matthews and Tavares combined. And we let him go to keep Justin Holl.

Ya, great move by Dubas…….one of the worst evaluators of talent

 

[egd27]

The point was there was zero Head GM experience right? Dubas is younger but has had plenty of experience in the front office before taking over... but somehow he has zero experience while Brisebois does? Can't have it both ways.

Also, how many years did Yzerman spend in a front office before taking over the Lightning years ago? But yes, Brisebois did/does have a longer resume in a front office.

3 years in an NHL front office isn't plenty of experience.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Ya, great move by Dubas…….one of the worst evaluators of talent

To keep Kerfoot who is playing under 13 min and providing squat

 

[egd27]

The whole thing with Vesey was shocking because Keefe should have directly said "If you're not scoring...hit someone or be great defensively"...he didn't do that...he just alluded to Vesey being vanilla. WTF is that? How is a player going to get the right message of what the team wants when you are tip toeing around what you mean?

Great point.

You don't ask the player what he wants to be, you tell him what his role is, outline the expectations, and provide him the tools / information he needs to be successful.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Definitely no. And nor should anyone else with a functioning brain. I could write a novel on the mistakes Dubas has made, but for the sake of this post, I'll (try to) condense this post into what I think the primary issue is.

Like many others have stated, the real issue here is the core 4, though the issue with that core 4 is two-fold. First of all, the obvious. The contracts are overpays. Half the cap on 4 players simply doesn't work. In Dubas' defence, no one saw the pandemic coming, so I can sympathize with the fact that he tried something bold and a circumstance beyond his control ruined his master plan. The entire world essentially had their lives and plans upended by the pandemic. However, it's his clear inability to adapt to said unforeseen circumstances by trading one of his $11 million men (Marner, preferably) to fix the team's broken structure that is his real undoing.

Secondly, the core of this team, which he has invested all of the cap into, are broken, fundamentally. They clearly lack mental fortitude and the pressure of performing in this market, combined with the trauma of so many embarrassing moments as a group has permanently scarred them, imo. I think, individually, as players, their skill levels are off the charts and if they had fresh starts on new teams, in new cities, they could thrive. It's not going to happen here though (again imo). I'm willing to bet that when they look at each other, their teammates' faces merely remind themselves of their innumerable failures and all the traumatic losses they've suffered together as a group. It's no surprise to anyone whenever they fall flat on their faces in big game situations or the fact that they always play down to their competition. Think of all of their embarrassing moments in just the last couple seasons:

- 3-2 series lead on BOS (2019), chance to wrap up the series on home ice, come out totally flat and uninspired, lose that game, they get dummied in game 7, 5-1.
- David Ayres game (nothing else needs to be said about this one, which I think is the most embarrassing loss not only in Toronto Maple Leafs history, not NHL history, not hockey history, but in the entire history of pro sports, period).
- Make an incredible comeback to tie the play-in series vs CBJ, only to come out totally flat and uninspired in game 5 and lose 3-0 (at home).
- Blow a 5-1 lead (at home) to the dumpster fire Senators last season.
- Lose back to back games against the Canucks who had been ravaged by COVID.
- Get blown out by the WBS Penguins on the road after a garbage performance at home the previous night.

This group of players are simply choke artists. They are the opposite of players like Joe Sakic and Jonathan Toews. It's one thing to have more than half your cap tied up into your core, it's quite another to have it tied up into a core that simply never has performed in any big game scenario. When a 40 year old player making league minimum is your best player night in and night out on a team that is so up against the cap that you had to bring in an EBUG because you couldn't afford to call up your (awful) third stringer, you have a special kind of failure on your hands. Thought they went about it in different ways, Dubas is Brian Burke level bad.