Do we have a developmental problem? A futile look.

[IronBloodedLion]

What the Rangers have done is good and bad, because they remain competitive, but it takes time away from the kids. Kakko and Lafreniere would probably be racking up more points on other teams because they’d be asked to play bigger roles.

I also think Gorton is a good hockey mind, and Dave Quinn seems like a nice guy, but there are things that were done that hampered our forwards progression. Constant line juggling and punishing creativity I think had a negative impact, especially in the offensive zone.

 

[CLW]

They're probably playing the long game with them. It's at least another couple of years to the start of their prime years and that's when it's going to be more crucial for them than now.

This is so blatantly obvious it hurts my pinky toe when I see people's brains implode over the kids "not meeting expectations". Whichever top-6 line Kakko plays on becomes the first line, he is getting those important 18-20 minutes a night and growing into the league. He is years ahead of where Kreider, for example, was at the same age. It's so obvious the Rangers want to develop him into a 200-foot all situations game breaking player. Just as it is obvious how they want to develop Laffy.

 

[Peltz]

This is so blatantly obvious it hurts my pinky toe when I see people's brains implode over the kids "not meeting expectations". Whichever top-6 line Kakko plays on becomes the first line, he is getting those important 18-20 minutes a night and growing into the league. He is years ahead of where Kreider, for example, was at the same age. It's so obvious the Rangers want to develop him into a 200-foot all situations game breaking player. Just as it is obvious how they want to develop Laffy.

Just to put things in perspective, Kakko is still two years younger than Kreider when Kreider entered the league.

Kreider by his second full season averaged .575 points per game. Kakko is at .400 this season so far. Based on how Kakko has played though, I think he's been pretty dominant at times without getting rewarded.

These marginal differences are so slim given the age difference and sample size. Laf is even harder to compare.

Is kakko going to be as good as Kreider? Who knows. But I certainly think he deserves the top 6 minutes he's gotten so far.

 

[Synergy27]

Just to put things in perspective, Kakko is still two years younger than Kreider when Kreider entered the league.

Kreider by his second full season averaged .575 points per game. Kakko is at .400 this season so far. Based on how Kakko has played though, I think he's been pretty dominant at times without getting rewarded.

These marginal differences are so slim given the age difference and sample size. Laf is even harder to compare.

Is kakko going to be as good as Kreider? Who knows. But I certainly think he deserves the top 6 minutes he's gotten so far.

This is fine. And it’s probably fine if that’s the trajectory Kakko takes. But we continue to discount the fact that these guys went first and second overall. That’s supposed to mean something.

These guys ending up as good as Kreider, who a lot of fans think should be on our third line at ES, is NOT a good outcome relative to draft position.

 

[Boris Zubov]

This is fine. And it’s probably fine if that’s the trajectory Kakko takes. But we continue to discount the fact that these guys went first and second overall. That’s supposed to mean something.

These guys ending up as good as Kreider, who a lot of fans think should be on our third line at ES, is NOT a good outcome relative to draft position.

Just because some fans want Kreider on the 3rd line, that doesn't make him a 3rd liner. If Kakko can produce like Kreider in 3-4 years, while playing Selke level defense, I think we would all sign up for that.

 

[CLW]

This is fine. And it’s probably fine if that’s the trajectory Kakko takes. But we continue to discount the fact that these guys went first and second overall. That’s supposed to mean something.

These guys ending up as good as Kreider, who a lot of fans think should be on our third line at ES, is NOT a good outcome relative to draft position.

You mean the Krieder who is an all-star and currently has as many goals as Matthews? LOL

Kakko is clearly way ahead of Kreider's curve, what's to say he won't stay there for the rest of his career? Why are you so hang up on "draft position" and "expectations". Whose "expectations" exactly? What if your subjective expectations are completely different from how the team sees the situation?

 

[Peltz]

This is fine. And it’s probably fine if that’s the trajectory Kakko takes. But we continue to discount the fact that these guys went first and second overall. That’s supposed to mean something.

These guys ending up as good as Kreider, who a lot of fans think should be on our third line at ES, is NOT a good outcome relative to draft position.

Eh, I’d take it. Kreider is one of our best players over the last 3 years. And these kids may even be better than him.

 

[Synergy27]

You mean the Krieder who is an all-star and currently has as many goals as Matthews? LOL

Kakko is clearly way ahead of Kreider's curve, what's to say he won't stay there for the rest of his career? Why are you so hang up on "draft position" and "expectations". Whose "expectations" exactly? What if your subjective expectations are completely different from how the team sees the situation?

Prior to this season, Kreider was viewed as a successful draft pick (late first) that underwhelmed relative to his skillset. I really like the player. He’s exactly what you hope for with a mid to late first round draft pick.

He is not a star player in this league. When you pick first and second overall, you expect to be getting a star player. We knew we weren’t getting McDavid. But we still thought we were getting two star players.

The puck is really going into the net for Kreider this year and it’s causing many to revise their opinion of him.

 

[CLW]

Prior to this season, Kreider was viewed as a successful draft pick (late first) that underwhelmed relative to his skillset. I really like the player. He’s exactly what you hope for with a mid to late first round draft pick.

He is not a star player in this league. When you pick first and second overall, you expect to be getting a star player. We knew we weren’t getting McDavid. But we still thought we were getting two star players.

The puck is really going into the net for Kreider this year and it’s causing many to revise their opinion of him.

Sure but it is YOU who claimed Kakko et al would plateau out as Kreider. I didn't say that, I said Kakko is ahead of Kreider at the same age. Reading comprehension matters.

e: In the context of this thread, imo it's the entire point of the Rangers' approach to create complete players. Therefore it follows that if the base talent level is higher, the aim is to start early to create a higher level end product. Kreider must be seen as a very successful Ranger player. Why not build on that? That's what the "Process" that Kreider talks about is about.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Do we think Kreider will be a similar player to this season going forward?

 

[SA16]

Do we think Kreider will be a similar player to this season going forward?

He is the same player he’s always been with a 40% shooting percent on the pp

 

[Synergy27]

Sure but it is YOU who claimed Kakko et al would plateau out as Kreider. I didn't say that, I said Kakko is ahead of Kreider at the same age. Reading comprehension matters.

e: In the context of this thread, imo it's the entire point of the Rangers' approach to create complete players. Therefore it follows that if the base talent level is higher, the aim is to start early to create a higher level end product. Kreider must be seen as a very successful Ranger player. Why not build on that? That's what the "Process" that Kreider talks about is about.

I didn’t claim Kakko would plateau at a Kreider level. I’m honestly not sure if he gets there at all based on what I’ve seen so far. He lacks too many what I view to be critical skills (speed and shot are the biggest).

What I did say is that, if Kakko pans out to be Kreider, that’s a bad result for a 2OA. This season notwithstanding. If Kakko turns into a player that produces at the level of this season’s Kreider year in and year out, yeah, that’s a good thing. But this season’s Kreider is a big time outlier for his career in general.

The willingness of some around here to discount draft position blows my mind. I think it’s because we’re used to picking mid to late first round, where there isn’t much separation. We got incredibly lucky to get these picks, picks I’ve never seen in my lifetime and probably will never see again. Picks that typically generate the best players in the league. These kids need to put themselves into that conversation to be considered successful picks. That’s how the draft works.

 

[Kovalev27]

Not much the rangers could do though. They won two draft lotteries out of the blue.

were never bad enough to get these kind of kids just got lucky. Now it’s a matter of finding them the mins. Eventually this will be their team. Panarin and Kreider will be gone one day. Buchnevich already gone. These kids will just be entering their primes

 

[CLW]

I didn’t claim Kakko would plateau at a Kreider level. I’m honestly not sure if he gets there at all based on what I’ve seen so far. He lacks too many what I view to be critical skills (speed and shot are the biggest).

What I did say is that, if Kakko pans out to be Kreider, that’s a bad result for a 2OA. This season notwithstanding. If Kakko turns into a player that produces at the level of this season’s Kreider year in and year out, yeah, that’s a good thing. But this season’s Kreider is a big time outlier for his career in general.

The willingness of some around here to discount draft position blows my mind. I think it’s because we’re used to picking mid to late first round, where there isn’t much separation. We got incredibly lucky to get these picks, picks I’ve never seen in my lifetime and probably will never see again. Picks that typically generate the best players in the league. These kids need to put themselves into that conversation to be considered successful picks. That’s how the draft works.

What's your argument? That the Rangers are not developing the kids to be the best they can be? Last game Kakko played 19:26 minutes, had one assist, one shot on goal, one block, and time on PP2 and the PK. The aim is clearly to make him an all situation player.

Seems to me the Rangers are taking the long term "build them up" approach, but fans are impatient for emotional reasons.

 

[egelband]

Kreiderman made a solid point that a majority of the ranger rookie forwards in the past that have met their potential or overachieved when reaching the big club were “developed”, at least partially (at a young age of 18-22) at the college ranks or elsewhere.

I think that combined with the state of the world and the economics of it (ticket sales), the AHL not being a realistic option at times, the rebuild forcing the youth up to big club, and lofty expectations have forced them to play up, when maybe the best way to start off was with the Pack.

But the Rangers brass is not innocent here either. I can’t speak to what goes on behind the scenes but it’s obvious they haven’t been the best at developing young offensive talent. The results speak for themselves

It’s a good point about the players developing elsewhere showing the best results. I wish the rangers would “own” that and just let guys develop elsewhere rather than trying to develop them at the NHL level. Imagine if Kakko and Laf stayed in developmental leagues for an extra season or even two. Georgiev too. Not to mention Kravtsov. I will say the rangers approach does seem to work ok with certain players, like Miller. But that doesn’t mean Miller wouldn’t be even better with last year under his belt playing at uni (or was he eligible for Hartford?).
Anyhow, I can also appreciate the rangers desire to get them to MSG. But it’s definitely a slower route.

 

[egelband]

People circle around the subject. But signing Panarin has been a double-edged sword. His imprint on the team is huge.

Good point. One thing I’m seeing lately is a lot of the even strength woes could be due to players without Panarin’s skill attempting to play like Panarin. We need a guy like Hornqvist on Florida to set a counter example. We’re too one dimensional, at least on the even-strength attack.

 

[egelband]

Quinn did a lot of stuff that didn't help his cause but he was also a victim of circumstances surrounding his bosses. When you look at what Gallant has done from a 30,000-foot level, it isn't all that radically different than Quinn's moves. The kids are still plateau'ed statistically. We still question the wisdom of playing Tinordi and Nemeth, putting Hunt in a top-six role, putting Kakko and Laf where they are on the lines, and keeping the first power play unit intact. What has happened is Gallant has benefited from a lot of things going right as well as lessons learned from Quinn's tenure, like the team needing a daddy figure in Reaves, Georgiev's mini-renaissance when Shesty is out, the PP clicking despite being the same players, and the whole team being a year older and wiser.

Yep. Give Quinn this current roster and maybe things aren’t that much different. Which is why I put a lot of the blame - for whatever that’s worth - on the front office.

 

[egelband]

Teams that draft first and second overall don’t have a Kreider Zibanejad Panarin and until this year Buchnevich in their top 6 taking up the top mins

kakko and Lafreniere should be normally playing 20 mins a night all situations and special teams and LOSING while scoring and continuing to develop offensively. Lot of confidence comes from the powerplay.

Learning to defend and win comes later.

before these kids it was JT Miller not getting top 6 mins.

now lias Andersson. He’s a terrible player and you could see it at development camp among other nhl prospects. He was a terrible pick in what is looking like a bad draft.

I think lafreniere is too good not to figure it out. But he’s literally got two all star players ahead of him on left wing signed long term.

kakko he’s become an elite defensive player. But he looks lost offensively to me most nights. His skating isn’t very good. And he continues to hesitate when he does get in close. He’s going to have to work on it. But I think he’ll be a guy you need to win. Reminds me of Rick Nash in a lot of ways.

What would have been better - in hindsight - to include in “the letter” is: ‘All these players we’re accumulating, you fans won’t see for a few years while they develop in environments which are more constructive and nurturing than MSG’. But everyone - me included - wanted to see the new toys immediately. And that turns out to be a mistake.

I’m certainly not saying any of the players are a lost cause. Just that it’ll take time.

 

[mas0764]

Just because some fans want Kreider on the 3rd line, that doesn't make him a 3rd liner. If Kakko can produce like Kreider in 3-4 years, while playing Selke level defense, I think we would all sign up for that.

If Kakko could be on pace for 40-50 goals and Selke defense? Of course.

If Kakko resembles Kreider’s career in any other way besides this season however, ie max out at 25 goals or so and barely cracking 50 points, it’s a big disappointment.

 

[mas0764]

Eh, I’d take it. Kreider is one of our best players over the last 3 years.

You like having no Stanley Cups?

 

[mas0764]

Prior to this season, Kreider was viewed as a successful draft pick (late first) that underwhelmed relative to his skillset. I really like the player. He’s exactly what you hope for with a mid to late first round draft pick.

He is not a star player in this league. When you pick first and second overall, you expect to be getting a star player. We knew we weren’t getting McDavid. But we still thought we were getting two star players.

The puck is really going into the net for Kreider this year and it’s causing many to revise their opinion of him.

Correct all around.

 

[CLW]

If Kakko could be on pace for 40-50 goals and Selke defense? Of course.

If Kakko resembles Kreider’s career in any other way besides this season however, ie max out at 25 goals or so and barely cracking 50 points, it’s a big disappointment.

More *If-ing*,

 

[Boris Zubov]

If Kakko could be on pace for 40-50 goals and Selke defense? Of course.

If Kakko resembles Kreider’s career in any other way besides this season however, ie max out at 25 goals or so and barely cracking 50 points, it’s a big disappointment.

I know what he's pacing for and I don't think 40 is out of the question, but realistically he's not scoring 50. We shouldn't overstate who Kreider has been historically, which is a 50-60 point winger.

I pray that's not Kakko's ceiling, but if turns out it is & he's playing Selke level defense, we can agree that's a very important piece to any Cup contender. Would I be disappointed with that? At this point, no. If you asked me that on draft day in 2019, my answer would've been a resounding yes. Expectations need to be tempered with reality sometimes. Luckily, it still too early for the final verdict.

 

[mas0764]

I know what he's pacing for and I don't think 40 is out of the question, but realistically he's not scoring 50. We shouldn't overstate who Kreider has been historically, which is a 50-60 point winger.

I pray that's not Kakko's ceiling, but if turns out it is & he's playing Selke level defense, we can agree that's a very important piece to any Cup contender. Would I be disappointed with that? At this point, no. If you asked me that on draft day in 2019, my answer would've been a resounding yes. Expectations need to be tempered with reality sometimes. Luckily, it still too early for the final verdict.

I would be disappointed still, but I’m constantly nervous about the possibility that Kakko is only that, or even less.

 

[rangersfansince08]

I'd be disappointed if both Laf and Kakko are that. I need one to be a PPG player.