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Line Combos: Do the Leafs have too many offensive defencemen?

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Jerkini said:
I meant he'll be tradable for a prospect + pick, similar to the Kaberle deal but not quite that high a price . Package deal for a #1C? In our dreams :laugh:
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I think Liles is more valuable to us atm than an average prospect, and/or a 2nd rounder he may fetch in return.

Hal Gill As A Leaf said:
Why do I have a feeling that Leaf fans would be angry for a move like that. I would hope they wouldn't be resistant.
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Homegrown talent seems to be more valuable than other team's "castoffs" for some reason. Hmm, since Gardiner is such a "castoff", maybe he's the one that should be moved out?
 
I think were seeing smarter not bigger or heavy hitting dmen being drafted by the Leafs now. You don't have to be a dman with the longest reach or the biggest hits to be on the PK, you just need to be smart and responsible.

I see Liles as a stopgap even with his 4 years on his contract but who knows.
 
We have options. For example, IF we don't buyout Komisarek, and IF he regains his form under Carlyle that would give us a legitimate defensive stud. I'm not holding my breath on that however. It'd be great to see though.

Beyond that however, we have guys like Ranger and Holzer in the minors who are either ready to return to the NHL or ready to prove they deserve a spot.

Buyout Liles, bring up these two and suddenly we have two or 3 guys who are good defensively. The trick is teaching the new young guys that both ends of the ice is important, and not having all our offensive guys develop one dimensional.
 
Bomber0104 said:
What if Liles is our new Komisarek with this new contract and concussion?

People seem to overlook that.
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Then it's a bad deal, and the hindsight "realists" will have another bullet for there guns. Is that what you are hoping for?
 
Dreakmur said:
That's why it was so dumb to sign him long term...
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After being able to watch Rielly more closely at the WJC's I can see he has a ton of talent.

But I can also see that if he's anywhere near an NHL roster for the next two seasons we're making another huge mistake with a young defenceman.

He'd get steamrolled in the NHL. Both physically and from a defensive standpoint.
 
Liles is a legit threat on the power play and is a veteran presence. Also, he's got a reasonable cap hit with a very favourable term. He's going to be around for quite some time and will be integral for the progression of Gardiner and Rielly. I imagine Liles' work in the community does not go unnoticed by management as well. He fits in here, that's the bottom line.

As others have pointed out, the game is moving away from Stay at home D. I'm extremely confident Paul Ranger will be a mainstay on the team soon anyway, so if anyone is going to be gone, it's Mike Komisarek.
 
Good stay at home defenseman will always have a place....look no further then Matt Greene and Willie Mitchell on LA....or Bryce Salvador and Volchenkov on NJD.
 
WTFMAN99 said:
Good stay at home defenseman will always have a place....look no further then Matt Greene and Willie Mitchell on LA....or Bryce Salvador and Volchenkov on NJD.
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Maybe but I think people are going to look more and more at the Two Way Defenders who can play the PK and can chip in a few points if needed.
 
Rinzler said:
Liles is a legit threat on the power play and is a veteran presence. Also, he's got a reasonable cap hit with a very favourable term. He's going to be around for quite some time and will be integral for the progression of Gardiner and Rielly. I imagine Liles' work in the community does not go unnoticed by management as well. He fits in here, that's the bottom line.

As others have pointed out, the game is moving away from Stay at home D. I'm extremely confident Paul Ranger will be a mainstay on the team soon anyway, so if anyone is going to be gone, it's Mike Komisarek.
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I think that when healthy Liles is a good player. Something has hot to give though. The leafs have a lot D and a lot of puck movers. Liles is a defensive liability (not a whole lot of checking/defensive strength). If he's paired properly that could be covered up.

Hal Gill might have something to say about "the NHL coming away from stay at home D" like you said.
 
Rinzler said:
As others have pointed out, the game is moving away from Stay at home D. I'm extremely confident Paul Ranger will be a mainstay on the team soon anyway, so if anyone is going to be gone, it's Mike Komisarek.
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The game isn't moving away from defensive defencemen. The game has moved away from defensive defencemen who can't skate. There's a difference.

Using cup winners as a benchmark, we've seen many defensive defencemen on all the past winners.

Most people just like to point to the goalie though, and get too preoccupied with offensive defencemen's points.
 
Most will be surprised at how much better defensively the Team is once a quality Goaltender is brought in.

Carlyle's coaching will help too.
 
without Franson the only right handed dmen they have are Komi and Holzer
that is a concern for me

you essentially have a top 6 of all left handed dmen
 
pspot said:
without Franson the only right handed dmen they have are Komi and Holzer
that is a concern for me

you essentially have a top 6 of all left handed dmen
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Burke has built one terrible defence in my opinion.

Net out my ass.

More like wing out.
 
Burke believes that mobile, offensive defensemen will be premier components of successful teams in the modern NHL.

that means these players have the greatest value among all other types of players. So having too much of a good thing in this case is a good thing. If we have to deal Gardiner in a package to acquire a Rick Nash now, we can do so because we have strength in the position to justify it.

As opposed to trading Kessel for a 1C and then complaining that our 1C would be so much better IF ONLY we had a 1RW to score goals... (That's a not subtle reference to Sundin, FYI)
 
indigobuffalo said:
Burke believes that mobile, offensive defensemen will be premier components of successful teams in the modern NHL.
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As we should all know full well, what Brian burke says and what actually happens are two very different things.

Mobile defencemen are required. But they are required to defend against goals being scored. That is the object of the game. To outscore the opponent. That means allowing less goals agsinst than the other team.
 
In a word ...yes.

Unless you see them as tradeable assets. Burke is gambling Holzer pans out(possible) and Komisarek finally emerges(don't hold your breath). Anytime you trade, you open one hole to fill another. Management decided Schenn wasn't it. Phaneuff,Gardiner,Liles,Reilly,Franson and to a lesser degree Gunner are basically offensive dmen. Burke is still gambling at the three critical positions,number 1 c,goal and stay at home dman.

Wilson threw him off course,building with the wrong parts based on run and gun.Carlyle will be begging him to get one or two stay at home dmen depending on how Holzer/Ranger play. With Seth Jones likely to go number 2, we should be glad this team is still a shambles.
 
The only reason that you hear about the offensive defencemen is because they make more of an impact earlier in their careers than the defensive type.

How easy is it for a guy like Morgan Rielly or Jake Gardiner to come in and skate with the speed of the NHL in comparison to a shutdown guy? Well, Rielly and Gardiner had above average skating skills already, so they won't face much of a change in the pace. But for the shutdown guys who aren't fleet a foot, will have a hard time adjusting with limiting time and space with much more physical forwards throughout the league. This generally takes for a slower development in shutdown guys.
 
showtime8 said:
The only reason that you hear about the offensive defencemen is because they make more of an impact earlier in their careers than the defensive type.

How easy is it for a guy like Morgan Rielly or Jake Gardiner to come in and skate with the speed of the NHL in comparison to a shutdown guy? Well, Rielly and Gardiner had above average skating skills already, so they won't face much of a change in the pace. But for the shutdown guys who aren't fleet a foot, will have a hard time adjusting with limiting time and space with much more physical forwards throughout the league. This generally takes for a slower development in shutdown guys.
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Usually stay-at-home/defensive/shut-down defencemen have an easier time adjusting to the physical requirements of the NHL moreso than these smooth skaters like Rielly (I consider Gardiner to be a few steps behind Rielly).

Skating ability is just one skill to have as a defender. Willingness to use your body and stick in a smart way is another. I don't think the Leafs have nearly enough of those guys. If they did, maybe we wouldn't be as frantic for a new goalie.

You can skate circles around the guy in your end, but at the end of the day you can't just run around the guy like a yappy dog. You have to engage the opponent and reclaim possession. It takes strength and smarts.

Gardiner, Liles, and Rielly simply don't have this. And then add Phaneuf who is slow and stupid, and you have three quarters of a full d squad that can't defend well. Basically necessitates the acquisition of two EXTREMELY good defensive defencemen and two of these Gardiner/Liles/Rielly/Phaneuf players to get minimal even strength and shorthanded ice time.
 
Bomber0104 said:
Something I have been noticing as of late that is that the Leafs have an abundance of defencemen who are of the "offensive" type. These include defencemen who are on long-term contracts, very promising rookies, and also our team captain.


In other words, we have Phaneuf, Liles, Gardiner, and Rielly.


I really do wonder how we can work all of these players into a workable Randy Carlyle type of defence-first system of play.


Do you think we can envision having all four of these players on our blue line in the next few years?

Do you think we will simply have to trade one or two of them out of necessity? If so, who goes?


I'd really like to hear some ideas for Toronto's defence in the future!
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Way too many Small One's thats for sure, Liles, Gardiner, and Rielly won't stike fear into uncoming forwards in the Leaf end. Clearing the front of the net just isn't an option.
 
Dreakmur said:
That's why it was so dumb to sign him long term...
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Would he not just be traded when someone else is ready to take his place. He's not on a terrible contract, he would be a useful addition to a defense that needs more offense and could get decent return.
 
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