Line Combos: Do the Leafs have too many offensive defencemen?

[Bomber0104]

Ya guys with emotion like Clark, Gilmour, Tucker and Roberts are just garbage to have on a team.

Aside from Tucker (idiot), those guys didn't let their emotions negatively impact the outcome of the game. They were in control and used their emotions to improve the team.

In any case, incomparable to a defenceman who lets a goalie dictate how well he plays.

YEt this happens on every team with a weak goalie. THe defence tries to overcompensate and ends up making poor decisions.

No it doesn't at all, and if it happens, then that player should be sitting in favor of players who don't let a teammate affect them negatively. If it is a chronic problem, they should be traded because clearly they aren't professional enough to play defence.

A defender doesn't play worse in front of certain goalies. They should be playing more conservatively with a weaker goalie and if the goalie coughs up goals, then it's the goalie's problem, not the player.

Anyone who knows how to properly watch a game of hockey knows what a bad goal looks like and what bad defence looks like.

The Rangers have an excellent D-corps, but put Reimer in net and they would all be a minus player just like the Leafs Dmen.

No one should use plus minus to decide how good or bad a player is defensively. Really weak argument.

If Reimer was in net then New York would be playing a more defensive style to limit good scoring chances. If Reimer coughs up bad ones, then Reimer should be sat or traded.

 

[charliolemieux]

Aside from Tucker (idiot), those guys didn't let their emotions negatively impact the outcome of the game. They were in control and used their emotions to improve the team.

So Gilmour was helping his team when he challenged the entire other bench to a fight?

Are actually old enough to have seen these guy play?

Clark and Roberts both had over 200pims. YOu think htey controlled their emotions?

In any case, incomparable to a defenceman who lets a goalie dictate how well he plays.

Tell that to the D-men who have enjoyed playing infront of Brodeur Roy Hasek and others of that ilk.

No it doesn't at all, and if it happens, then that player should be sitting in favor of players who don't let a teammate affect them negatively. If it is a chronic problem, they should be traded because clearly they aren't professional enough to play defence.

A defender doesn't play worse in front of certain goalies. They should be playing more conservatively with a weaker goalie and if the goalie coughs up goals, then it's the goalie's problem, not the player.

Anyone who knows how to properly watch a game of hockey knows what a bad goal looks like and what bad defence looks like.

You obviously can't grasp the intricacies of teamwork.

No one should use plus minus to decide how good or bad a player is defensively. Really weak argument.

If Reimer was in net then New York would be playing a more defensive style to limit good scoring chances. If Reimer coughs up bad ones, then Reimer should be sat or traded.

It is only a weak argument because you take it out of context. Or can't under stand the context.

Basic as can be. replace a vezina goalie with a scrub goalie and the D-men will see a drop in +/-.

Pretty basic.

 

[-DeMo-]

It is only a weak argument because you take it out of context. Or can't under stand the context.

Basic as can be. replace a vezina goalie with a scrub goalie and the D-men will see a drop in +/-.

Pretty basic.

that doesn't mean the defense is playing worst.

 

[Bomber0104]

So Gilmour was helping his team when he challenged the entire other bench to a fight?

Yes. Has nothing to do with his game on the ice. Sideshow.

Are actually old enough to have seen these guy play?

Yes.

Clark and Roberts both had over 200pims. YOu think htey controlled their emotions?

Yes. They kicked some ass.

Tell that to the D-men who have enjoyed playing infront of Brodeur Roy Hasek and others of that ilk.

I will. I'll ask them how much worse they played without the goalie. They'll tell me they played the same game called hockey.

You obviously can't grasp the intricacies of teamwork.

I do. Goaltending is a different game altogether than playing defence and forward. The goalie has one job. Stop the puck. The defence has one job. Help the goalie.

The defence can only do so much to help. And if the goalie can't be helped then the goalie is not NHL caliber.

It is only a weak argument because you take it out of context. Or can't under stand the context.

Basic as can be. replace a vezina goalie with a scrub goalie and the D-men will see a drop in +/-.

No I understand perfectly. You seem to think +/- is a measure of defensive performance. Which it is not. At all.

It's a stat and a very useless one.

 

[4evaBlue]

I do. Goaltending is a different game altogether than playing defence and forward. The goalie has one job. Stop the puck. The defence has one job. Help the goalie.

That's a pretty over-simplistic observation. It may be their main role, but hardly their only job. There are quite a few goalies who can act like a 3rd defender with their puck handling skills, even with the dumb trapezoid in effect. Defensemen are very much expected to pitch in offensively. Depending on the system (*cough* Wilson), it may leave the goaltender exposed to more odd man rushes, and scoring chances against.

 

[charliolemieux]

Yes. Has nothing to do with his game on the ice. Sideshow.

So Dougie got his nickname (5pts if you know it) for being such an even tempered kind of guy?

Yes.

YA I doubt it. I'm talking pre-2000.

Yes. They kicked some ass.

Clark and Roberts in the 80's were different. They were far from reserved.

I will. I'll ask them how much worse they played without the goalie. They'll tell me they played the same game called hockey.

If you can't see the difference between playing infront of Reimer and playing infront of MIller then that is just a shame.

I do. Goaltending is a different game altogether than playing defence and forward. The goalie has one job. Stop the puck. The defence has one job. Help the goalie.

So the defense doesn't score, rush the puck, make a break out passes or anything else besides help the goalie?

OK nice one.

The defence can only do so much to help. And if the goalie can't be helped then the goalie is not NHL caliber.

I agree some people just can't be helped.

No I understand perfectly. You seem to think +/- is a measure of defensive performance. Which it is not. At all.

It's a stat and a very useless one.

NO again you missed it.

Take the same team. A better goalie is going to produce better +/-.

 

[4evaBlue]

If you can't see the difference between playing infront of Reimer and playing infront of MIller then that is just a shame.

If you can't see the difference in playing nets behind Wilson's system instead of Ruff's system, then...

 

[Bomber0104]

If you can't see the difference in playing nets behind Wilson's system instead of Ruff's system, then...

Some people are content just looking at the goalie and +/- these days...

 

[Kessely Snipes]

Honestly say Riley doesn't come up for another two years, Liles will have 2 years or under. If he keeps up a decent point total, I bet he could be dealt at the deadline to a contender.

 

[MastuhNinks]

Allowing Phaneuf to play tough minutes means one of two things. He's really good defensively, or there are no other options. So yes, it would make sense that his QoT would be near the bottom of the league.

Its like saying the same argument about Jay Bouwmeester. He probably played a ton of hard minutes but how did that work out for him and Calgary. And I'm guessing that his QoT wasn't that good either.

Being responsible in the defensive end and stopping plays from getting there/play in the neutral zone are also in effect.

The point is Phaneuf fared very well in those tough defensive minutes, whereas guys like Jay Bouwmeester did not. You can say, "But, but, but, Phaneuf is a pylon!!!" or post individual youtube videos of Phaneuf getting burned, but the fact is all statistics point to the fact that Phaneuf had a great defensive season. The main difference between my argument and yours is that I have provided a plethora of evidence, you have provided none. Just saying, "No, all those statistics are wrong and Phaneuf is bad defensively and you just have to take my word for it," is not good enough for me. Prove it.

What the statistics don't tell you is how bad the Leafs did.

So maybe other people were worse on the Leafs but Phaneuf still "lead" the defence and as a result was responsible for leading them to nearly last place. It doesn't really say much when you say Phaneuf was one of the better defensive players on the worst defensive team in the league.

With that in mind I think he is approaching being an average defensive player.

Coaches have picked up on Phaneuf's slow and stupid play long ago which is why he has always been paired with a defensive defenceman.

If he was a good defensive player, coaches would have put an offensive defenceman with him.

Phaneuf is not responsible for team results, that is an irrational argument. He did very well in his role, I have provided ample evidence to back up that claim and you have provided nothing. You could've replaced Phaneuf with Chara and it wouldn't have been enough to make the Leafs season successful.

Playing with a defensive defensemen rather than an offensive defensemen is indicative of poor defensive play? I guess Duncan Keith, Zdeno Chara, Drew Doughty, etc. are all poor defensively too. What a ridiculous argument.


I'm not the only one saying it, it's pretty clear looking at statistics that Phaneuf has been good defensively in Toronto.

So what kind of conclusion can we draw from the numbers? There are obviously names in that list that you'd expect to see, but there are also some names in there that you wouldn't necessarily thought of initally:

Dion Phaneuf (who has managed to re-invent himself as a defensively reliable defenseman the past two seasons in Toronto)...

http://canucksarmy.com/2012/10/26/the-top-defensive-pairings-in-the-nhl

 

[zeke]

If you can't see the difference in playing nets behind Wilson's system instead of Ruff's system, then...

you obviously haven't watched much of Ruff's "system".

 

[JEI]

Is it just me, or is it not the opposite every year? We either have too many defensive minded defenders one season, and then we have too many offensive defenders the next lol I guess that's due to Burke wanting to build his team one way, then backing off from that and going more of a Wilson style through the last season.

 

[Mess]

Is it just me, or is it not the opposite every year? We either have too many defensive minded defenders one season, and then we have too many offensive defenders the next lol I guess that's due to Burke wanting to build his team one way, then backing off from that and going more of a Wilson style through the last season.

Now with the switch to Carlyle and a new focus on defense, the pendulum has swung the opposite direction needing more stay at home, physical crease clearing, shot blocking hard hitting Dmen to appease the new coaches style.

 

[zeke]

Mess loved the Komi signing, the Finger signing, the Armstrong signing, and the Schenn pick.

Somehow, though, they didn't help us get better defensively.

 

[Mess]

Mess loved the Komi signing, the Finger signing, the Armstrong signing, and the Schenn pick.

Somehow, though, they didn't help us get better defensively.

There isn't anything correct about that claim.

I hated the Komisarek signing from the start, as well as Beauchemin and only spoke up against the Finger signing by quoting coach Wilson praising the signing (not me), and said even before the 2008 draft I would have taken Cody Hodgson pick with our selection and not traded up to take Luke Schenn.

I have said and believe strongly however "Defense wins Championships" (see Boston and LA for proof) and as such you don't accomplish that without the proper player personnel capable of playing strong defense, and that is not having too many offensive defensman, that are defensive liabilities.

JM Liles team leading worst -14 +/- of among all Leaf defenseman is NOT helping the goals against and I also spoke out against trading a 2nd round pick for him as well.

 

[zeke]

You spent months arguing that signing Komi was a top priority, and have spent years praising Fletcher's Finger signing and the Schenn pick.

and yet none of it made our defense better.


as for Boston and LA, they're proof that goaltending wins championships.

 

[MajorityRules*]

That's a pretty over-simplistic observation. It may be their main role, but hardly their only job. There are quite a few goalies who can act like a 3rd defender with their puck handling skills, even with the dumb trapezoid in effect. Defensemen are very much expected to pitch in offensively. Depending on the system (*cough* Wilson), it may leave the goaltender exposed to more odd man rushes, and scoring chances against.

He sounds just like my 14 yr old son when he starts losing an argument.

 

[Commander Clueless]

There isn't anything correct about that claim.

I hated the Komisarek signing from the start, as well as Beauchemin and only spoke up against the Finger signing by quoting coach Wilson praising the signing (not me), and said even before the 2008 draft I would have taken Cody Hodgson pick with our selection and not traded up to take Luke Schenn.

I have said and believe strongly however "Defense wins Championships" (see Boston and LA for proof) and as such you don't accomplish that without the proper player personnel capable of playing strong defense, and that is not having too many offensive defensman, that are defensive liabilities.

JM Liles team leading worst -14 +/- of among all Leaf defenseman is NOT helping the goals against and I also spoke out against trading a 2nd round pick for him as well.

So we trade Liles for a veteran 1B type goalie and let Gardiner and Rielly take over as the puck movers? I'm okay with that. Could also use a defender in a similar situation/contract as Liles but on the defensive side of things instead.

Some people talk about our defense like its great. I disagree. I think its got a lot of potential but for the here and now its shaky at best. Looks good for the future though.

 

[Mess]

You spent months arguing that signing Komi was a top priority, and have spent years praising Fletcher's Finger signing and the Schenn pick.

and yet none of it made our defense better.


as for Boston and LA, they're proof that goaltending wins championships.

Schenn was an 18 year old kid making the NHL right out of junior hockey, did you think his impact alone would make the Leafs better as its youngest player? 30 year old veterans Komisarek and Liles contributed to a 29th overall goals against and bottom 5 finish just as much did they not?.

Finger was brought in as gap filler on a team that was "Clearing the slate" and came highly recommended by our former fired coach Wilson. That was not my choice. However if fans want to put that in context I can certainly do that..

Jeff Finger verses PMD JM Liles

Jeff Finger (@$3.5 mil & Age:28) --------- 2008-2009 .. 66 games 6 goals 17 assists 23 points & -7
John-Michael Liles (@$4.2 mil & Age 30) - 20011-12 .... 66 games 7 goals 20 assists 27 points & -14

- Jeff Finger was a bad UFA signing for free, that ended up on a team that finished with 81 points (7th from the bottom of the standings) with the 30 worst GA. Finger a defensive dman with little PP time (0-2-2 pp & 6-15-21 es points)

- JM Liles the great puck moving dman cost the Leafs a 2nd round draft pick to obtain, was older, more expensive, worst +/-, and scored +1 goal and + 4 points more than Finger did, while playing on Leafs PP (4-9-13 pp points & 3-11-14 es points).. The team however finished with 80 points overall & 5th from the bottom with the 29th worst GA, while Liles manages to be double Fingers -7 +/- to Liles -14.

So how exactly did JM Liles a PMD addition make the Leafs team better in comparison to a complete plug like Jeff Finger? Perhaps the decline of the team is explainable when the replacements are no better than the past players, yet some people believe improvements are being made.