Do CHL to AHL Eligibility Rules Need a Change?

[x Tame Impala]

I’m not a big prospect development fan but I’m reading more and more on HF about prospects being stuck playing in the CHL when they are some combination of too: old, skilled, or big. That they’d be better off developing in the AHL and being able to play against men instead of teenagers.

I know this is a hot issue for Canadians in particular and because I don’t follow prospect development very closely I don’t have much of an opinion one way or the other.

As a Hawks fan the most recent example I can think of was Kirby Dach. This was discussed on the Hawks board and I was wondering what other teams have had situations like this with their prospects.

Dach was drafted 3rd overall and had a good but not great season in the WHL before making the Hawks team. He had issues executing on offense and it was my impression he lacked confidence and finish to his game. It’s been argued he (and Boqvist) was rushed to the Blackhawks by Bowman and Ownership to give fans something to watch while the Hawks were on the decline.

It was clear that Dach was not comfortable as a NHLer yet but his options were limited. He couldn’t go back to the CHL and he was not eligible for the AHL as a 19 year old. So a few questions I’d like answers to from some of you who do follow this closely and know more than I do…

1) Do players actually benefit from having an “overqualified” season in the CHL? What are some examples of this working?

2) Should NHL teams have the option to grant one prospect a year “Exceptional Status” and allow them to play in the AHL after they’re drafted?

3) Would this exceptional status ruin the CHL?

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[Peasy]

CHL would never agree. Simple as that. They would lose a shit load of more players every year, why would they want that?

I think people really overexaggerate this issue. Teams end up doing more harm than good by holding their prospects hostage imo. Just send them back. If theyre not ready for the NHL then they can still learn stuff in junior.

 

[North Cole]

I feel like the situation is too complicated to adequately answer. They might not necessarily benefit as much from an overinflated CHL year compared to a slog in the AHL, but I don't know if there's a readily available solution.

The rules benefit the CHL by keeping players and extra year, but I feel like this also helps keep some journeymen employed in the AHL too, since they don't have an extra batch of young players pushing them out.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Dach was drafted 3rd overall and had a good but not great season in the WHL before making the Hawks team.

He couldn’t go back to the CHL and he was not eligible for the AHL as a 19 year old.

You've lost me here. Why could a 19 year old who had a "good but not great" season the year prior not go back to the CHL?

 

[Cursed Lemon]

The entire existence of junior hockey will forever complicate this issue.

 

[ijuka]

Let a 1st round pick decide.

There's maybe 2-5 players a year who are too good for chl but too bad for nhl, the player would probably suboptimally play small minutes in nhl instead of returning to chl anyway. It wont hurt the level of the league

 

[Mickey Marner]

Kirby Dach was not even remotely close to being too good for junior. Centers with his Jr numbers usually go mid-late 1st round, Chicago just decided to take him way too high for whatever reason(s). Krebs, Tomasino, McMichael & Suzuki all had similar numbers, were drafted 17th-28th and went back to jr.

 

[Toby91ca]

You've lost me here. Why could a 19 year old who had a "good but not great" season the year prior not go back to the CHL?

Yeah, there some facts missing there. He certainly could have been sent back to the CHL, but for whatever reason, Chicago pushed him, probably unfairly, to be an impact player right away and starting him a center as well....very difficult position to be in.

Rules are fairly simple....if you draft a player from the CHL, if the NHL team chooses not to retain him and he's under 20 years old....he goes back to CHL. Players can play in the AHL at 18, but not those drafted from the CHL. This rule is fairly simple, it helps protect the box office of the CHL teams, but some could argue where they will develop better anyway, CHL or AHL.

In the case of Dach, don't know all the details, but almost certain there was no rule keeping him from being assigned to the CHL. Also, he did play in the AHL first and I think the wrinkle around that was it was a conditioning stint (3 games), the NHL team still "retained" him.

 

[Peasy]

Kirby Dach was not even remotely close to being too good for junior. Centers with his Jr numbers usually go mid-late 1st round, Chicago just decided to take him way too high for whatever reason(s). Krebs, Tomasino, McMichael & Suzuki all had similar numbers, were drafted 17th-28th and went back to jr.

Suzuki had way better numbers than Dach in a better league and he still went back for two additional seasons, and now look whos the better player between Dach and Suzuki. (Obviously Dach is 2 years younger but im not confident he will ever surpass Suzuki).

People out there act like you cant learn anything or develop in the CHL its asinine.

Dach should have never been in the NHL to start with. He should have went back to junior for at least 1 year, possible 2.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Suzuki had way better numbers than Dach in a better league and he still went back for two additional seasons, and now look whos the better player between Dach and Suzuki.

People out there act like you cant learn anything or develop in the CHL its asinine.

Dach should have never been in the NHL to start with. He should have went back to junior for at least 1 year, possible 2.

I was talking about Ryan Suzuki and other 2019 picks, but Nick Suzuki is a good example. Robert Thomas from that 2017 draft as well. Far better players than Kirby Dach have had to play 3, 4 even 5 years of jr.

 

[Jared Dunn]

CHL would never agree. Simple as that. They would lose a shit load of more players every year, why would they want that?

I think people really overexaggerate this issue. Teams end up doing more harm than good by holding their prospects hostage imo. Just send them back. If theyre not ready for the NHL then they can still learn stuff in junior.

Why should it matter if they agree when the way it is now it is only them who benefits? If they don't agree to do what is best for the player and their NHL club maybe the NHL should just stop feeding them massive sums of money since there are clearly alternatives now that you can argue are just as good and allow the NHL team more freedom with their players. I think each team being able to make an exception with one player makes a ton of sense, and I'd imagine a lot of teams end up not even utilizing that exception

Look at Shane Wright currently, he probably shouldn't be in the NHL but there is exactly zero benefit to him playing in the OHL other than putting butts in seats in Kingston

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Nope

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Sending them back to juniors can be a negative for NHL teams as they'd rather have their players learning their system rather than playing someone elses system for another season.

This should be decided by the player and team as to what is best for the individual player.

 

[mouser]

Kirby Dach was not even remotely close to being too good for junior. Centers with his Jr numbers usually go mid-late 1st round, Chicago just decided to take him way too high for whatever reason(s). Krebs, Tomasino, McMichael & Suzuki all had similar numbers, were drafted 17th-28th and went back to jr.

Agreed. Dach was a bit of a project when drafted, not at all unreasonable to expect he would need the two years of CHL development.

I'm skeptical there are many if any players who are "too good for juniors" but "not good enough for the NHL". What we tend to run into more often is the player rights belong to a crappy CHL team that isn't a great development place for the player. In which case the better approach may be to force a player trade to another CHL club.

 

[StreetHawk]

CHL would never agree. Simple as that. They would lose a shit load of more players every year, why would they want that?

I think people really overexaggerate this issue. Teams end up doing more harm than good by holding their prospects hostage imo. Just send them back. If theyre not ready for the NHL then they can still learn stuff in junior.

We are basically talking about 19 year olds and whether they need a 4th year in the chl or not.

Dobson for the isles his options were either 30 minutes or more per game back in the Q after back to back memorial cups or play in around half of the isles games that season. Isles opted for the latter as there was nothing else for him and he also needed to get stronger and he’s not doing that while playing 30 minutes a game.

Dach should have been returned after the draft.

Either you send the kid down or you have to really work with them at the nhl level to get their game up to speed.

 

[Ruggs225]

Yes, need to allow some exceptions. Maybe 1 per team per year?

This way the CHL doesn’t get decimated but the guys that really are too good for the CHL can be develop in the AHL.

Also it could give some other players more ice tim/responsibility in the CHL helping them develop.

 

[Toby91ca]

Agreed. Dach was a bit of a project when drafted, not at all unreasonable to expect he would need the two years of CHL development.

I'm skeptical there are many if any players who are "too good for juniors" but "not good enough for the NHL". What we tend to run into more often is the player rights belong to a crappy CHL team that isn't a great development place for the player. In which case the better approach may be to force a player trade to another CHL club.

Agree....who are the examples? I was going to say Crosby....he was too good for Juniors while playing there, but he certainly was good enough for NHL, so doesn't fit.....who does? Shane Wright was mentioned - 1) not sure if he's not good enough for NHL yet, so hard to say....probably wouldn't be in the NHL if drafted by a stronger team though, but 2) why would we think he's too good for Junior? It's not like he lit the OHL on fire last year. He had a great year for sure, but he was only 8th in scoring.....even if you are at the top, doesn't mean you are too good for the league. Crosby, in his draft year, outscored #2 scorer by 50pts...#2 scorer was a guy who played with Crosby and had his stats padded accordingly, otherwise gap would have been even wider. Wright had 94pts last year and league leader had 124 I think. No reason to think Wright would be too good for the league. Don't underestimate the value of confidence or the determent of having your confidence shaken.

 

[Chips]

A problem can be if the prospect is huge, and finds it way too easy to score in junior and form bad habits

Tom Wilson was brought to the NHL for this reason. He ideally would have gone to the AHL

 

[x Tame Impala]

You've lost me here. Why could a 19 year old who had a "good but not great" season the year prior not go back to the CHL?

Correct me if needed but CHLers get their 9 game stint in the NHL and then they either have to go back to the C or stay up in the NHL. They’re only AHL eligible at 20(?) years old.

So I’m Kirby’s case the Hawks had to decide what was best to do with him. See if he could hack it at a NHL level or send him back down to the WHL where some believed it would be pointless and he’d have nothing to prove there. I think because he was 6’4” and drafted 3rd OVR it was assumed he’d be ready for the big leagues. Then when he struggled there’s no other place for him to go because he can’t go back to the CHL and he isn’t old enough for the AHL.

Tough spot to be in. For the record I thought Kirby could’ve used one more season in the WHL to dominate offensively. He needed more finish and confidence like I mentioned in my OP. Sometimes you have to play against lesser comp to reinforce your own abilities

 

[Mickey Marner]

Agreed. Dach was a bit of a project when drafted, not at all unreasonable to expect he would need the two years of CHL development.

I'm skeptical there are many if any players who are "too good for juniors" but "not good enough for the NHL". What we tend to run into more often is the player rights belong to a crappy CHL team that isn't a great development place for the player. In which case the better approach may be to force a player trade to another CHL club.

Right, it’s always a reach pick like Dach or Hayton or Niederreiter that starts one of these threads off. But for every one of them there’s always a Turcotte, or Zadina or Burmistrov that did get to play in the AHL as a teenager and didn’t live up to their draft spot either. Plus, there’s always a London or Kitchener or Halifax that will gladly load up for a Memorial cup run. Aside from programs that had toxic hazing rituals and the like I don’t really see any good examples of junior ruining a prospect who otherwise would have succeeded in the AHL.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Correct me if needed but CHLers get their 9 game stint in the NHL and then they either have to go back to the C or stay up in the NHL. They’re only AHL eligible at 20(?) years old. So I’m Kirby’s case the Hawks had to decide what was best to do with him. See if he could hack it at a NHL level or send him back down to the WHL where some believed it would be pointless and he’d have nothing to prove there. I think because he was 6’4” and drafted 3rd OVR it was assumed he’d be ready for the big leagues. Then when he struggled there’s no other place for him to go because he can’t go back to the CHL and he isn’t old enough for the AHL.

Tough spot to be in. For the record I thought Kirby could’ve used one more season in the WHL to dominate offensively. He needed more finish and confidence like I mentioned in my OP. Sometimes you have to play against lesser comp to reinforce your own abilities

That doesn’t explain why you said he couldn’t go back to the chl.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Correct me if needed but CHLers get their 9 game stint in the NHL and then they either have to go back to the C or stay up in the NHL. They’re only AHL eligible at 20(?) years old.

That doesn’t explain why you said he couldn’t go back to the chl.

Because he passed his 9 game ELC limit. Does that only affect his contract or is he not allowed to be sent down to the CHL after those 9 games as well?

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Because he passed his 9 game ELC limit. Does that only affect his contract or is he not allowed to be sent down to the CHL after those 9 games as well?

Passing the limit just means your nhl contract starts. They can send him back to juniors still but he’ll burn a year off the contract. If you don’t hit the threshold of games played then the contract can slide.

 

[Beef Cake]

Allow NHL teams to buy out the junior rights for players, correlating with the round they were drafted in. This recoups the cost for the junior club they can turn around and invest back into players ala Portland Winterhawks/London Knights

 

[Sky04]

Yes but Dach is a terrible example. Drouin for example was a 2PPG junior player in his draft year off a memorial cup win. He didn't make the Tampa Bay Lightning, he would've benefitted greatly from going to the AHL that year instead being forced back to juniors to put up another 2PPG season against competition he had already dominated a year earlier.