Dishing the Dirt

[overpass]

The Blake quote about Stewart is a good find. But I think it only proves so much. Conceding that Stewart could move when he got his long strides going, how often did he do so? The questions about Stewart’s all around game are also about loafing and effort without the puck.

Let’s take a modern player as a comparison. Dustin Penner could move when he was in full stride on a breakaway, with long strides. But nobody ever called him a fast player.

Going back to one of my favourite old-time articles, which I posted in full on Page 15 of this thread. Marc McNeil remembers the Maroons with colourful descriptions of many players.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...ons&hl=en

Remember how the huge Nels Stewart used to cruise about slowly like a majestic liner, but no man could beat him to the draw once he got within shooting range, which was anywhere?

Very positive about Stewart’s shooting...but “cruise about slowly” does not sound like an all around player.

I still think Stewart was a player who got caught in a changing league and was much better suited for the old starters and subs, stickhandling NHL of the 20s rather than the three-line, headmanning and backchecking NHL of the 30s.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The Blake quote about Stewart is a good find. But I think it only proves so much. Conceding that Stewart could move when he got his long strides going, how often did he do so? The questions about Stewart’s all around game are also about loafing and effort without the puck.

Let’s take a modern player as a comparison. Dustin Penner could move when he was in full stride on a breakaway, with long strides. But nobody ever called him a fast player.

Going back to one of my favourite old-time articles, which I posted in full on Page 15 of this thread. Marc McNeil remembers the Maroons with colourful descriptions of many players.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...ons&hl=en

Remember how the huge Nels Stewart used to cruise about slowly like a majestic liner, but no man could beat him to the draw once he got within shooting range, which was anywhere?

Very positive about Stewart’s shooting...but “cruise about slowly” does not sound like an all around player.

I still think Stewart was a player who got caught in a changing league and was much better suited for the old starters and subs, stickhandling NHL of the 20s rather than the three-line, headmanning and backchecking NHL of the 30s.

I don't disagree with anything your're saying. Again, I'm not saying Stewart was Howie Morenz. I've made that perfectly clear. Same regarding his defense.

The two biggest knocks on him were his speed (lack there of) and his zero sum defensive game. I feel like, so some degree, that narrative has changed. It doesn't mean I'm pushing him as an elite skater or Guy Carbonneau. When your reputation is as low in those 2 areas as Stewart was, the only way to go was up and the sheer volume of information I have should send him in that direction. Just how much depends on the person.

 

[overpass]

The different quotes you’ve posted about Stewart are useful for remembering that Stewart was a great hockey player and did everything that hockey players do. He didn’t just stand around all game. Just like Brett Hull could do more than stand around waiting for a one-timer and Pavel Bure didn’t just circle centre ice all the time.

 

[jarek]

The different quotes you’ve posted about Stewart are useful for remembering that Stewart was a great hockey player and did everything that hockey players do. He didn’t just stand around all game. Just like Brett Hull could do more than stand around waiting for a one-timer and Pavel Bure didn’t just circle centre ice all the time.

Let's wait and see the full breadth of what IE has to offer.

 

[jarek]

So this was posted during the Euros project, it's essentially a bunch of people from different time periods weighing in on the best Czech players in history, I think: Hlasování poroty - iDNES.cz

 

[Theokritos]

So this was posted during the Euros project, it's essentially a bunch of people from different time periods weighing in on the best Czech players in history, I think: Hlasování poroty - iDNES.cz

The overall result of that poll can be found here. (Scroll down to "KONEČNÉ POŘADÍ ANKETYHOKEJISTA STOLETÍ" for the results beyond the top 10).

 

[jarek]

The overall result of that poll can be found here. (Scroll down to "KONEČNÉ POŘADÍ ANKETYHOKEJISTA STOLETÍ" for the results beyond the top 10).

Man they loved Suchy, even though the numbers suggest he wasn't that far ahead of Pospisil, if at all.

 

[rmartin65]

Man they loved Suchy, even though the numbers suggest he wasn't that far ahead of Pospisil, if at all.

Well... there is more to hockey than the numbers.

 

[jarek]

Well... there is more to hockey than the numbers.

The numbers are a significant part of it. I am also including things like all star team selections, golden stick voting, etc. in "the numbers". If you look at the whole picture there, there isn't a lot separating the two players..

It's pretty clear to me that Suchy's spectacular style of play won a lot of people over, and this seemed to be the case for a lot of that type of player. Pospisil was never flashy, but he got the job done in a very efficient and effective manner.

 

[overpass]

Tommy Gorman gave a one-man coach poll in a February 22, 1936 Canadian Press article. Note that Gorman coached 3 of the 12 players named (Northcott, Wentworth, and Conacher).

Gorman was asked to build the perfect hockey player and provided a list of attributes. He named a player for each attribute.

Forwards

Blazing shot: Charlie Conacher

Accuracy in driving pucks into the net: Bill Cook

Skating speed: Hec Kilrea

Backchecking: Larry (Baldy) Northcott

Stickhandling: Johnny Gottselig

Give and take a pass: Marty Barry

Finish around the nets: Paul Thompson

Defencemen

Break from the blueline in a goalward rush: Marvin Wentworth

Blocking opponents: Eddie Shore

Handing out stiff bodychecks: Bucko McDonald

Accurate shot: Babe Siebert

Coolness under fire: Lionel Conacher

Old college try: King Clancy

 

[ImporterExporter]

Found another quote that is quite useful in establishing Stewart at least in his Montreal days had some wheels. Lucky find as it was from the Ottawa Citizen, which I had brought up because a game edition wasn't available in the Montreal Gazette:

Dec 1st 1933 (Stewart would be 31 years old now, so well past his prime)

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

"Nels Stewart appeared with the familiar black cap. He has lost a great deal of his speed, but is still a dangerous customer around the inner defense."

Kind of hard to lose A GREAT DEAL of speed if you didn't already posses it in the first place. Based on all my findings the speed stereotype surely came about from his Boston and NY days, certainly not from his time in Montreal which was his peak and prime.

 

[Theokritos]

Draft picks 307 and 315:

Jiří Holík:
"One of the best Czechoslovak forwards ever. Bold and aggressive, with excellent fighting qualities. Has an exceptionally large playing range. Equally good offensively and defensively. Expert penalty killer."
II: "Warrior who had no equal at WHC, perfectly follows his defensive duties. Every defenseman would like to play behind him."

The second quote is from a 1972 Czechoslovak yearbook and refers to the 1972 World Championship, but should also give some general insight into the player.

Sergey Kapustin:
"Technical, cunning and fast. Has a fine sense of the game. Always driving towards the goal."

 

[jarek]

That's awesome. Imagine this is how we played hockey today? LOL!

Literally everyone converge on the puck!

 

[tinyzombies]

http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/www/newspapers/EDB/1919/10/22/5/Img/Ar00515.png

Yikes, Bernie Morris was a draft dodger.

Bernie was also named to an all-time Pacific Coast league all-star team as RW. I cannot post link here because it includes undrafteds.

 

[jarek]

http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/www/newspapers/EDB/1919/10/22/5/Img/Ar00515.png

Yikes, Bernie Morris was a draft dodger.

He was exonerated. This has been well known for a long time.

 

[ResilientBeast]

http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/www/newspapers/EDB/1919/10/22/5/Img/Ar00515.png

Yikes, Bernie Morris was a draft dodger.

Bernie was also named to an all-time Pacific Coast league all-star team as RW. I cannot post link here because it includes undrafteds.

We've known about most official PCHA all star teams for a while now

 

[tinyzombies]

Found this in the Dean Robinson Morenz book:

On January 15, 1927, during a Maroons-Canadiens game at the Forum, the Montreal Daily Star initiated a speed skating and stickhandling competition among NHL players. During intermissions of games played in Montreal players were invited to carry a puck around the rink three times, racing against the clock. In the first series of heats the Canadiens' Gizzy Hart rounded the course in 48.8 seconds. His teammate Wildor Larochelle and Sammy Rothschild of the Maroons were clocked at 51.4 seconds. Three nights later the Detroit Cougars were in Montreal and four players took part in round two, except now the route was reduced to 190 yards. Organizers and club officials felt that the shorter distance would not rob contestants of energy they needed in the regular game. Morenz set the new mark at 17.2 seconds, narrowly beating Larochelle and Fred Gordon and Archie Briden of the Cougars. Briden fell in his attempt but he kept control of the puck in sliding the final 60 feet.

Interest in the contest grew. The Maroons and Canadiens each added $200 to the Star's original $200 purse. The Pittsburgh Pirates tossed in another $100, as did A.J. Norton of the Norton Carbon Paper Co. in Montreal. Each entrant was allowed two cracks at the course and several needed them. Colourful King Clancy, speedy defenseman with the Ottawa Senators, was considered his team's best hope. In rounding the third turn the good-natured King shouted, "Hot dog!" but almost immediately lost the puck and was disqualified. When the ice chips had settled Morenz had times of 17.0 and 17.2 while Babe Siebert of the Maroons was sitting at 17.0 and 17.4. The Star declared its contest a tie and upped the ante another $200. Howie took home $550 and the Babe $450 (Norton's donation of $100 had stipulations attached that favored Morenz.) Rothschild, Briden, Frank Frederickson, Red Dutton, Russ Oatman, Eddie Shore, Frank Nighbor, Hec Kilrea and Ed Gorman all posted times of 17.6 seconds or better.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Military drafts are a crazy thing, especially if it's not to resist an invasion.I cannot imagine having to go to war beside men who do not want to be there and are paralyzed by fear.Not everyone is made for war.Also can't imagine what it's like being dragged there when you don't want to.Ugh.

 

[Habsfan18]

@tinyzombies so you liking that Morenz book? I read it some time ago, but I remember really enjoying it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I remember it was argued here that the draft dodging allegations are probably what kept Bernie Morris out of the HHOF

 

[jarek]

I remember it was argued here that the draft dodging allegations are probably what kept Bernie Morris out of the HHOF

Yeah basically.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The only people who should be allowed to blame draft dodgers are those who went to war themselves.

 

[jarek]

The only people who should be allowed to blame draft dodgers are those who went to war themselves.

Well you have to consider the point of view of the HHoF committee. There are certainly people who at the time felt Bernie Morris was draft dodging, even if he was exonerated. Maybe even a lot of them. What kind of message do you send if you honour this player with HHoF status? The times were really f***ed up back then. I'm sure draft dodging was considered pretty much the same as high treason.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well you have to consider the point of view of the HHoF committee. There are certainly people who at the time felt Bernie Morris was draft dodging, even if he was exonerated. Maybe even a lot of them. What kind of message do you send if you honour this player with HHoF status? The times were really ****ed up back then. I'm sure draft dodging was considered pretty much the same as high treason.

Yes, back in those days a lot of people went to war compared to today.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Honestly, before this draft Nels Stewart was considered slow as molasses. That is the first stereotype we associate with him. Toe Blake flat out refutes that, along with a number of game reports. I don't know what else I can do to convince people that, while he wasn't Howie Morenz, he certainly should no longer be considered the pylon he was a month or 2 ago.

He shouldn't have been considered a pylon since whatever draft it was that I found that info in the first place. I think I was also the one who found evidence that Gordie Drillon wasn't a slug either. For whatever reason, that is now accepted but Stewart is still a slow lazy slob.

Some people are very resistant to change some of the meme-like categorizations they make of players that stick. Just like "Lindros could never keep his head up".. it is a caricature of the player.

The characterizations of Stewart cruising slowly until getting into striking distance sounds a lot like what you'd hear of Mario Lemieux's skating back in the day.. cherry picking a bit, and appearing slower than he actually was because he was huge.. but his strides covered a lot of ground once he was pointed toward the opposition net.