Devon Toews vs Darnell Nurse

[snipes]

Nurse

 

[Mr Positive]

If the upgrades to the Oilers were meaningful, if they work out, then expect those negative stats for Nurse to flip.

You also got to think that Toews might just benefit from playing with Makar. Nurse has Barrie, who definitely isn't top pairing quality.

 

[Three On Zero]

Toews is substantially better than Nurse

 

[Jayevs]

Ah yes, cliche's like "tilt the ice" and "caved in". I'm guessing all of your information comes from WAR charts too, where quality of linemates and quality of competition are all but ignored. Nobody could "tilt the ice" when the line on the ice was Neal - Haas - Chaisson or Kahun - Khaira - Ennis. Those are lines designed to hang on for dear life and hope to survive. I don't think its a coincidence that only one of those guys has an NHL contract right now, and that's only to be a PK specialist.

You guessed wrong. But fair point we can wait and see how Nurse does with Edmonton’s improved bottom 6.

 

[Dr Salt]

The key stat there is quality of competition. Something WAR does a terrible job of factoring in.

Because the north division is certainly much better than the west!

 

[M88K]

Because the north division is certainly much better than the central!

Splitting hairs here but the avs played in the pacific last season.

 

[McDNicks17]

Because the north division is certainly much better than the central!

The West may have had slightly better teams, but the North had more elite players.

Check out ice time against elite competition: PuckIQ | Woodmoney

It's dominated by North defensemen. Only a few from the East come close.

 

[Dr Salt]

Splitting hairs here but the avs played in the pacific last season.

Even then at least they had Vegas St Louis and Minnesota.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Toews is becoming overrated because he has great advanced stats on a great team.

 

[Three On Zero]

Toews is becoming overrated because he has great advanced stats on a great team.

Nurse has good offensive stats because he's stapled to McDavid, with very little going for himself defensively.

 

[Jayevs]

Toews is becoming overrated because he has great advanced stats on a great team.

There was literally running jokes on the aves board calling Toews a robot because he didn’t make mistakes. It’s not just a system he’s a key cog to the team.

 

[Three On Zero]

There was literally running jokes on the aves board calling Toews a robot because he didn’t make mistakes. It’s not just a system he’s a key cog to the team.

He's not a high profile flashy player, he is just.....good

 

[TeddyBare]

HAHAHA
If you have strong underlying numbers in a specific model that value's your TEAMMATES that doesn't make you overrated.
That makes you one of the primary reasons for said teams success.
Not that difficult of a concept.

 

[McDNicks17]

HAHAHA
If you have strong underlying numbers in a specific model that value's your TEAMMATES that doesn't make you overrated.
That makes you one of the primary reasons for said teams success.
Not that difficult of a concept.

He's obviously an important part of the success, but when every single regular defenseman on the team has analytics nearing or over 60%, it's pretty obvious the base line for those stats is higher than normal because they're on such a good team.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

He's obviously an important part of the success, but when every single regular defenseman on the team has analytics nearing or over 60%, it's pretty obvious the base line for those stats is higher than normal because they're on such a good team.

How about the fact that the guy simply plays perfect defensive hockey, is a transitional wizard and even chips in a moderate amount of offense (Toews had just 5 less points than Nurse last year in 3 less games played) all while playing the most and toughest minutes on the entire team?

It’s not just analytics that make people love Toews. It’s that he played high end #1D hockey last year.

 

[McDNicks17]

How about the fact that the guy simply plays perfect defensive hockey, is a transitional wizard and even chips in a moderate amount of offense (Toews had just 2 less 5v5 points than Nurse last year in 3 less games played) all while playing the most and toughest minutes on the entire team?

It’s not just analytics that make people love Toews. It’s that he played high end #1D hockey last year.

I get that. The post I was replying to was specifically talking about analytics though.

I think most Avs fans would agree Toews started getting attention outside Colorado when those silly WAR charts started going mainstream. I'm just saying those charts aren't going to be overly accurate when it's clear every Avs player gets a boost from how good the team was.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I’m probably not quite as high on Toews as some of the other Avs faithful (I’d rank him as the 3rd best D on Colorado), but I do slightly prefer him to Nurse. The eye test on Toews doesn’t look quite as good as the analytics do, to me at least.

I could see this flip-flopping back and forth over the next couple years though.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Nurse has good offensive stats because he's stapled to McDavid, with very little going for himself defensively.

I didn’t mention Nurse.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

There was literally running jokes on the aves board calling Toews a robot because he didn’t make mistakes. It’s not just a system he’s a key cog to the team.

I didn’t call him a system player. I think considering him and Girard top 20 defensemen in the league, which many do due to their advanced stats, is overrating them due to the system they play in. Make him the 1D on the Oilers and I don’t think he puts up much different analytics than Nurse.

 

[Three On Zero]

I didn’t mention Nurse.

I never said you did, you mate a statement about Toews, I rebutted with a statement about Nurse

 

[soothsayer]

Those WAR charts are the instagram poetry of hockey analytics. People think they can just drop those turds into the internet and think they've left something insightful.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

I'm just saying those charts aren't going to be overly accurate when it's clear every Avs player gets a boost from how good the team was.

Gotcha, so every single Avs player is actually not really as good individually as the results show? Man, that's convenient.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Gotcha, so every single Avs player is actually not really as good individually as the results show? Man, that's convenient.

Mackinnon and Makar make every single player on the team significantly better if they would play with way... McDavid.

 

[Iapyi]

After the vote I just had it left the #s at 70 - 70.

The infamous AINEC crowd would be scratching their heads at this if they could see past their personal bigotry and selfishness.

 

[McDNicks17]

Gotcha, so every single Avs player is actually not really as good individually as the results show? Man, that's convenient.

The worst forward in 5v5 xGF% on the team was at 55%. The worst D was at 56.5%. Those aren't normal results.

I'm sure any reasonable Avs fan would agree the system and depth of the team inflated their possession numbers(aka what those WAR charts use to blindly rank players).