Confirmed with Link: Devils trade 2nd and 4th rounders for Mirco Mueller and 5th rounder

[AfroThunder396]

The same thing could probably be said about a fan who wants to discount virtually everything about a defenseman simply because of his age, as if every single player below a certain age will turn into an NHL player. How did Matt Corrente turn out for us? After all, he was a 1st round pick and was 22 years old at some point.

And who is doing this? Who is saying he's a star, or a top pairing guy, or some stud? Of course he's a flawed player with a lot of work to do, this is a false position you're arguing against.

Right now he can step in and be our 3rd pairing guy because our defense sucks and he's played that role in the NHL before. Hopefully he can improve.

 

[Czech Trio]

Mueller-Santini seems like a potential stabilizing pairing on backend. Nothing flashy, but sound defensively w/o suffocating the forward rush.

 

[ghdi]

Clarkson, Sykora, Ponikarovsky, Zidlicky, Carter, Gionta, Bernier, Zubrus, Fayne all had some of their best seasons or resurgences under DeBoer.

Way too much credit for Deboer. He was a one year wonder here. He also had strong assistants working with him who don't get enough credit themselves. Lou also deserves some credit for taking flyers on some of those guys in the first place.

In respect to this particular discussion, every single one of those players (Salvador also is worth mentioning espc for his 2012 playoff run) were veterans of some caliber. DeBoer historically (Florida, NJ and San Jose) has not been a coach that young players do well under which is interesting since Deboer was a relatively successful juniors coach.

Deboer's effect on Mueller can't be discounted. We've seen him with younger (and European) defensemen first hand. While I absolutely do not expect Mueller to make the turn to the positive like Larsson did at 22-23, the effect of Deboer leaving Larsson was immediately apparent in his play. Deboer doesn't trust younger players and in fairness to him, he didn't have to trust them here since we had better options at the time of his success here, nor did he have to in San Jose when there were more established options ahead of prospects like Mueller.

 

[BenedictGomez]

And who is doing this? Who is saying he's a star, or a top pairing guy, or some stud? Of course he's a flawed player with a lot of work to do, this is a false position you're arguing against.

Right now he can step in and be our 3rd pairing guy because our defense sucks and he's played that role in the NHL before. Hopefully he can improve.

Here's what's going to happen.

Any 22 year old defenseman is going to make a lot of rookie mistakes, like the GEICO commercials, it's what they do. Then they learn, and improve. Look at Adam Larrson in 2014 versus Adam Larrson in 2016 for a good example.

So everyone who has a negative opinion about the guy is going to look at those obvious NHL rookie defenseman mistakes and say, "SEE, he's a bust". You can bank on that.

 

[Wingman77]

Way too much credit for Deboer. He was a one year wonder here. He also had strong assistants working with him who don't get enough credit themselves. Lou also deserves some credit for taking flyers on some of those guys in the first place.

In respect to this particular discussion, every single one of those players (Salvador also is worth mentioning espc for his 2012 playoff run) were veterans of some caliber. DeBoer historically (Florida, NJ and San Jose) has not been a coach that young players do well under which is interesting since Deboer was a relatively successful juniors coach.

Deboer's effect on Mueller can't be discounted. We've seen him with younger (and European) defensemen first hand. While I absolutely do not expect Mueller to make the turn to the positive like Larsson did at 22-23, the effect of Deboer leaving Larsson was immediately apparent in his play. Deboer doesn't trust younger players and in fairness to him, he didn't have to trust them here since we had better options at the time of his success here, nor did he have to in San Jose when there were more established options ahead of prospects like Mueller.

There were several things DeBoer could have done better and there were also several things DeBoer did well here. A significant constant though is that very few, if any coaches (or organizations for that matter) could rebound after losing 4 of the top 5 scorers on the team within a year span as we unfortunately did. Doesn't matter who the players are, rather the production lost in the short span that is far from easy to replace (think the Pens losing Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Sheary between now and the end of next season). This conversation has been had time and time again, no need to rehash at it further .

My response was regarding one person (DeBoer) being singled out because of a personal bias and not an objective look at the situation. There is always a combination of factors as to why a player strives including coaching, usage in the lineup, line-mates, a fresh start with new motivation, etc. Just wanted to point out that it wasn't factually true that only one player was effective under DeBoer's tenure.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Deboer's effect on Mueller can't be discounted. We've seen him with younger (and European) defensemen first hand...... Deboer doesn't trust younger players and in fairness to him, he didn't have to trust them here since we had better options at the time of his success here, nor did he have to in San Jose when there were more established options ahead of prospects like Mueller.

It's true DeBoer would bizarrely rather play an aging veteran with 2/3 the skill of a given rookie player. Perhaps that did happen a little in Mueller's case, but in fairness to DeBoer, the Sharks' defense is really good, so there really wasnt a logical reason to play a 21 year old defenseman on a Stanley Cup Champion caliber team. Were Mueller on the Devils last season, even at 21 years old, he would have seen significant playing time.

 

[Burner Account]

It's true DeBoer would bizarrely rather play an aging veteran with 2/3 the skill of a given rookie player. Perhaps that did happen a little in Mueller's case, but in fairness to DeBoer, the Sharks' defense is really good, so there really wasnt a logical reason to play a 21 year old defenseman on a Stanley Cup Champion caliber team. Were Mueller on the Devils last season, even at 21 years old, he would have seen significant playing time.

A friend mentioned this to me last night. This board wrote off Larsson's limited use for years because of Deboer. Have to give Mueller the same benefit of the doubt.

 

[ghdi]

Just wanted to point out that it wasn't factually true that only one player was effective under DeBoer's tenure.

Fair point and I don't disagree.

It's true DeBoer would bizarrely rather play an aging veteran with 2/3 the skill of a given rookie player. Perhaps that did happen a little in Mueller's case, but in fairness to DeBoer, the Sharks' defense is really good, so there really wasnt a logical reason to play a 21 year old defenseman on a Stanley Cup Champion caliber team. Were Mueller on the Devils last season, even at 21 years old, he would have seen significant playing time.

I mentioned exactly this in my last sentence of my post. Deboer had no reason to pick Mueller over the other options, but I don't think he'd have chosen him unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

[Unknown Caller]

Not sure if posted earlier, but not very encouraging.

 

[None Shall Pass]

In case you were wondering.

 

[Bologna 1]

Not sure if posted earlier, but not very encouraging.

Cordell post that? I have a hard time putting much stock into the opinion of a blogger whose highest level of playing is ball hockey on puddled pavement.

 

[Nubmer6]

Cordell post that? I have a hard time putting much stock into the opinion of a blogger whose highest level of playing is ball hockey on puddled pavement.

Doesn't matter what level of hockey he's played. Stats are stats.

-edit-
And yes, I've posted that twice already. The first 2 columns aren't important to me. Just means the guy can't score. The GF% is what's disheartening to me.

 

[AfroThunder396]

In case you were wondering.

Saw this too. Makes sense. Buffalo probably didn't want to pay that price so they spent a 3rd on someone else.

For those saying "we probably could have gotten him for a 3rd" or "there was no demand, SJ would have lost him to waivers", well here you go.

 

[Unknown Caller]

Cordell post that? I have a hard time putting much stock into the opinion of a blogger whose highest level of playing is ball hockey on puddled pavement.

What does hockey ability have to do with stats, scouting and analytics? Theo Epstein never played a second of college or professional baseball and built the Red Sox and Cubs into world champions. John Chayka never played pro hockey and is a GM at 28. Wayne Gretzky was terrible as a coach/in the front office, etc.

The stats are pretty notable. Doesn't mean to write Mueller off, but definitely shows how weak his production was last year.

 

[NJDevs26]

Buffalo could have conceivably offered their 2nd 2 (54), which would have meant we needed to give up 49 to top that.

 

[EnglishDevil]

I'd rather have Mueller than Beaulieu, at least there's a slim chance he turns into something useful (even if i'm personally not that hopeful). Beaulieu is garbage.

 

[Nubmer6]

Strangely, Buffalo being in on him makes me feel a bit better about the trade.

 

[Bologna 1]

What does hockey ability have to do with stats, scouting and analytics? Theo Epstein never played a second of college or professional baseball and built the Red Sox and Cubs into world champions. John Chayka never played pro hockey and is a GM at 28. Wayne Gretzky was terrible as a coach/in the front office, etc.

The stats are pretty notable. Doesn't mean to write Mueller off, but definitely shows how weak his production was last year.

I'm not saying stats have no place. I'm saying if someone like that watches a guy play and gives a scouting report based on what they see, i put no stock in it.

 

[Nubmer6]

I'm not saying stats have no place. I'm saying if someone like that watches a guy play and gives a scouting report based on what they see, i put no stock in it.

The guy's pretty smart and he's got a good eye.

 

[Unknown Caller]

I'm not saying stats have no place. I'm saying if someone like that watches a guy play and gives a scouting report based on what they see, i put no stock in it.

It wasn't his scouting report, it was pure numbers. Being below a guy like Dan Kelly definitely isn't encouraging. I have no idea what the appeal of Mueller is other than the fact that he was a first round pick. Put in a waiver claim for the guy or give up a late round pick? Absolutely fine. But to give up a mid 2nd and drop down 20 spots from the 4th to the 5th round is a huge overpayment imo. I'm not sure what he's done since the day he was drafted to warrant that price tag.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'd only call that concerning if he was Oleg Tverdovsky.

I really don't care about a young defenseman's offensive AHL ratios. His +/- last year wasnt good, that's where I'd go if I was nit-picking stats. It does look like he had a very good playoff run though.

 

[Bologna 1]

It wasn't his scouting report, it was pure numbers. Being below a guy like Dan Kelly definitely isn't encouraging. I have no idea what the appeal of Mueller is other than the fact that he was a first round pick. Put in a waiver claim for the guy or give up a late round pick? Absolutely fine. But to give up a mid 2nd and drop down 20 spots from the 4th to the 5th round is a huge overpayment imo. I'm not sure what he's done since the day he was drafted to warrant that price tag.

For sure, numbers dont lie. But at the same time, some guys who have "bad numbers" actually are pretty solid players. Kris Russell comes to mind. Guess the point being, i dont want to jump to conclusions until seeing him actually play. if he sucks when that comes, then we can trash the deal.

 

[Nubmer6]

I'd only call that concerning if he was Oleg Tverdovsky.

I really don't care about a young defenseman's offensive AHL ratios. His +/- last year wasnt good, that's where I'd go if I was nit-picking stats. It does look like he had a very good playoff run though.

GF% is probably better than +/-. At least, I like it more.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Given Mueller is so young, there's not a lot of data.

That said, I took every game he's played so far, both regular season & playoffs, and rebased it based on an 82 game season:


Now I ask you, OBJECTIVELY, is this really "poor" or "bust" stats for a 20 to 21 year old defenseman getting his feet wet in a professional career, and only with about 3 years experience on a smaller North American rink to boot?

I defy anyone to say the answer is, "yes".

 

[BenedictGomez]

No WONDER the Sabres are struggling.

Their NHL scouts dont know anything about ice hockey either!