Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[Bleedred]

What I find amusing is people giving Brunette all the credit for last year is that the same logic didn't apply this year. Last year Lindy got no credit, this year he gets all the blame. If you literally think he's Mr. Magoo and the assistant runs the show a la what people attribute last year to, then you (Devil fans on the whole, not specifically) should be blaming Green for the team's struggles this year instead of chanting Fire Lindy. It's not like Lindy had total autonomy the other three years and suddenly didn't have it last year. Either he was the decision maker through his tenure, or he wasn't and the assistant was always the brains of the operation. Or option C, the decisions have been made from above all along.

I’ve been blaming Green all year long.

I’ve said that I’ve long since suspected that he was a bigger part of the problem this year than Lindy.

A lot of people have cited the team being slower and that’s probably part of it, but the team is nowhere near as explosive.

The 21-22 Panthers were explosive. Even the Panthers of the last two years haven’t looked that explosive, despite their trip to the finals last year without Brunette. They still look like a really good team, but they’ve been less of a rush team.

Last night’s Predators looked like that, but not nearly to the level of us and the Panthers. I’m sure it’s because their roster isn’t nearly as talented.

This year’s team is not at all explosive. This year’s team doesn’t look like nearly the threat to score. Their rush game is next to nothing.

The power play is a pathetic joke under this guy, but somehow converts more. Even earlier in the year the power play was only top 8-10 caliber and not by far top 1 caliber like it was in percentage.

Green has done almost as bad as of job as Recchi.

I’ve also been roasting Green even before he was hired here. Their team legitimately turned around after “Bruce! There it is!” That wasn’t just a coaching bump.

That team legitimately went from a bottom feeding team with good goaltending to playoff caliber. Yes, they regressed under Bruce the next year, but the way they played under Green was a joke. The bubble playoff run where they almost beat Vegas was nothing more than a Demko run.

I said before Green coached here that this guy is possibly worst long term coach the league has had in the last decade. Along with maybe Doug Weight. There’s been disastrous ones who were only interims.

Now he’s been a disastrous interim. This guy can’t be anywhere near the team in any kind of coaching role next year. This guy sucks.

 

[Bleedred]

The other funny thing about the Brunette discourse is that the power play last year wasn't even appreciably better than the one this year numbers-wise (yes, I was surprised too when I saw the stats). I know the early-season surge goosed the numbers and Green's a moron but still you'd think if Brunette was the Bill Walsh of the NHL he's being made out to be, there'd be a noticeable difference in the power play, the one thing assistants clearly have a big hand in and especially with better personnel last year:

This year - 21.7%, 14th in the NHL
Last year - 21.9%, 13th in the NHL

Like I said, this year’s power play is riding favorable percentages. We’re bottom 5 in expected goals at 5 on 4.

Even when we were scoring on 40%+ of our power plays I think we were around 10th in expected goals 5 on 4.

Last year we were 12th in expected goals at 5 on 4 (I think) and 14th in percentage.

We were 32nd in both under Recchi in 21-22.

The only thing I will say in Green’s defense possibly is that the power play analytics have gotten even worse since he moved to head coach and Chris Taylor took over the power play. We went from 23rd to 28th.

We may even be 29th after last night’s game.

 

[AfroThunder396]

What I find amusing is people giving Brunette all the credit for last year is that the same logic didn't apply this year. Last year Lindy got no credit, this year he gets all the blame. If you literally think he's Mr. Magoo and the assistant runs the show a la what people attribute last year to, then you (Devil fans on the whole, not specifically) should be blaming Green for the team's struggles this year instead of chanting Fire Lindy. It's not like Lindy had total autonomy the other three years and suddenly didn't have it last year. Either he was the decision maker through his tenure, or he wasn't and the assistant was always the brains of the operation. Or option C, the decisions have been made from above all along which doesn't help the Brunette genius narrative.

Lindy didn't just coach two seasons here though, he coached four. The issues the 2024 team has are suspiciously similar to the issues the 2022 team had, yet he failed to make any meaningful adjustments. He continued to make the same mistakes despite no longer having the same excuses. The problems we were having this year didn't appear out of nowhere, they've been under the hood this whole time. Ultimately the head coach has far more responsibilities than an assistant does.

I really don't see how it's that crazy to say Brunette is a better HC than both Lindy and Green. When Brunette was interim HC of the Panthers they won the President's trophy, then he goes to NJ and contributes to the best year in franchise history, then he goes to Nashville and drags a mediocre roster to the playoffs kicking and screaming. Success follows him everywhere he goes, and in the case of FLA and NJ when he left there was immediate regression the next regular season.

Also, Lindy was 2nd in Jack Adams voting last year. Seems to me like he got enough credit.

 

[Guttersniped]

What percentage of that is the engine of our team being unable to play center and avoiding contact at all costs? I don’t think Nico’s line is a perimeter line nor has the Nosek-Palat combo. The 4th line is just AHLers so it’s hard to even judge.

The void at center definitely contributes but I thought everyone was too long passes/perimeter last night, including the Nico/ Meier/Mercer.

Spoiler: Team Shot Charts

PK

That isn’t a talent or will vs skill thing because we got bent over by Mark f***ing Jankowski and Luke Evangelista.

Spoiler: Player Shot Chart Shots

Another big difference was the Josi-McDonough is fantastic & the Lauzon-Carrier solid, and our defense is a mess.

McDonough was a great add for them.

 

[Bleedred]

If the Canucks were a well-run team, Travis Green would be the head coach of Seattle right now, unless you think they would have fired him already. Even if they presumably missed the playoffs last year Green probably survives and gets ganked by them after this year.

There was a fear that Seattle would hire Green in 2021 if the Canucks didn’t re-up him, and if they couldn’t get Rod in the chance Carolina didn’t re-up with him. Both were coaching as lame ducks for the entirety of the shortened 20-21 season.

The Kraken interest in Green seemed to have some legitimacy, but the Canucks were probably super paranoid about it.

So they re-signed Green right after that regular season ended, despite no playoffs in 3 of 4 years and the lone playoff berth being in a year where 24 teams made the playoffs, where it’s highly debatable whether they would have even made the playoffs if the season made it to the 82 scheduled game.

And then they won their play in round, as well as beat the defending champion Blues in the first round and took Vegas to 7 games thanks to Demko. I think they even lost game 7 by a 1-0 score.

I guess that got Green another contract even after the team missed the playoffs and finished dead last in the all Canadian team division the next season. Benning and Green got fired two months into the next season.

If there were rumors that the Flyers, Pens, Rangers or Islanders wanted to hire Travis Green in July if we didn’t sign him first, we should be saying “Go ahead! Make our f***in decade!”.

I know they wouldn’t now though lol.

 

[Guttersniped]

The other funny thing about the Brunette discourse is that the power play last year wasn't even appreciably better than the one this year numbers-wise (yes, I was surprised too when I saw the stats). I know the early-season surge goosed the numbers and Green's a moron but still you'd think if Brunette was the Bill Walsh of the NHL he's being made out to be, there'd be a noticeable difference in the power play, the one thing assistants clearly have a big hand in and especially with better personnel last year:

This year - 21.7%, 14th in the NHL
Last year - 21.9%, 13th in the NHL

How would that change the observations about how the team’s 5v5 system?

Maybe he’s not great with the power play. Our ridiculous run in the beginning of the year and talent is how our PP did well this year.

Ruff is a possession system guy, there’s an overlap. Brunette must have contributed in some meaningful ways, just looking at the two teams last night.

I think Green made the team worse.

 

[Bleedred]

I think Green made the team worse.

 

[Devils Trap]

What I find amusing is people giving Brunette all the credit for last year is that the same logic didn't apply this year. Last year Lindy got no credit, this year he gets all the blame. If you literally think he's Mr. Magoo and the assistant runs the show a la what people attribute last year to, then you (Devil fans on the whole, not specifically) should be blaming Green for the team's struggles this year instead of chanting Fire Lindy. It's not like Lindy had total autonomy the other three years and suddenly didn't have it last year. Either he was the decision maker through his tenure, or he wasn't and the assistant was always the brains of the operation. Or option C, the decisions have been made from above all along which doesn't help the Brunette genius narrative.

I will say this, and I have this on pretty good authority (with someone who is in and around the locker room everyday with the team). The players were extremely bummed that Brunette left.

He was apparently like the " best friend" and big vibes guy in the locker room that everyone loved. I know nothing about his coaching and tactics whatever but he was beloved by everyone there.

Added edit: He is apparently known to be a huge culture builder within locker rooms both in his time at FLA, us and now NSH.

 

[DVision44]

How would that change the observations about how the team’s 5v5 system?

Maybe he’s not great with the power play. Our ridiculous run in the beginning of the year and talent is how our PP did well this year.

Ruff is a possession system guy, there’s an overlap. Brunette must have contributed in some meaningful ways, just looking at the two teams last night.

Green made the team worse.

Fixed

 

[NJDevs26]

Lindy didn't just coach two seasons here though, he coached four. The issues the 2024 team has are suspiciously similar to the issues the 2022 team had, yet he failed to make any meaningful adjustments. He continued to make the same mistakes despite no longer having the same excuses. The problems we were having this year didn't appear out of nowhere, they've been under the hood this whole time. Ultimately the head coach has far more responsibilities than an assistant does.

I really don't see how it's that crazy to say Brunette is a better HC than both Lindy and Green. When Brunette was interim HC of the Panthers they won the President's trophy, then he goes to NJ and contributes to the best year in franchise history, then he goes to Nashville and drags a mediocre roster to the playoffs kicking and screaming. Success follows him everywhere he goes, and in the case of FLA and NJ when he left there was immediate regression the next regular season.

Also, Lindy was 2nd in Jack Adams voting last year. Seems to me like he got enough credit.

Of course he's a better coach...but that's not a high bar to clear really. It's this narrative that he was somehow responsible or the biggest reason for our thirty-point improvement last year (and is coach of the decade for Nashville improving from 92 points last year to 94 this year as if he made a 30-point impact there) that's foolish and I push back against all the time. As if this roster is the same as last year's, and the players' mindset would have stayed the same after having some success.

I will say this, and I have this on pretty good authority (with someone who is in and around the locker room everyday with the team). The players were extremely bummed that Brunette left.

He was apparently like the " best friend" and big vibes guy in the locker room that everyone loved. I know nothing about his coaching and tactics whatever but he was beloved by everyone there.

Added edit: He is apparently known to be a huge culture builder within locker rooms both in his time at FLA, us and now NSH.

I could buy that as an intangible and going from Brunette to Green may well have been the same as Lemaire going from Larry to Chris Nilan...I don't think an intangible's worth thirty points in the standings though. People just use the coaching thing (which is obviously an issue) as a crutch to avoid thinking something's fundamentally wrong with the players or the roster construction, if not both. Not to mention the injuries which are generally cited as a reason for certain players not doing as well as previous years, somehow are never given as a reason for why this year's roster can't compare to last year when the Brunette whining starts.

 

[NJDevs26]

How would that change the observations about how the team’s 5v5 system?

Maybe he’s not great with the power play. Our ridiculous run in the beginning of the year and talent is how our PP did well this year.

Ruff is a possession system guy, there’s an overlap. Brunette must have contributed in some meaningful ways, just looking at the two teams last night.

I think Green made the team worse.

Again, if you think he's running things 5-on-5 (which is basically running the team) then why doesn't this apply to Green or all of Fitz's other hand-picked assistants like Nas and whoever was here before Brunette?

I don't think the system's appreciably different (or at least it wasn't before Dumber took over), I just think the vet defensemen we were running out last year could handle the chaos nonsense better than kids and AHL fodder, not to mention the forward core is a lot different due to injury and defection.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Brunette is a better assistant than Green, for sure. I'm positive there's some impact in there.

But yeah, the main impact absolute comes from an incredibly banged up set of forwards, no Dougie, 2 more rookie dmen, and not enough depth to cover all of that. All those things put an additional strain on a complex system that didn't necessarily exist last year, and the Ruff stuff is absolutely a complex system. Maybe Brunette would have provided some benefit to the team trying to adapt, but there's no way to know.

Brunette was an assistant coach. A good one, maybe, but still an assistant coach.

 

[ZYXWVUT]

I still like the Markstrom route. Should be cheap, has a two year out and allows a Daws/Schmid/ThatOtherKid to develop into something and be a cheap option.

this is where i am at too i think.

 

[jkrdevil]

Again, if you think he's running things 5-on-5 (which is basically running the team) then why doesn't this apply to Green or all of Fitz's other hand-picked assistants like Nas and whoever was here before Brunette?

I don't think the system's appreciably different (or at least it wasn't before Dumber took over), I just think the vet defensemen we were running out last year could handle the chaos nonsense better than kids and AHL fodder, not to mention the forward core is a lot different due to injury and defection.

Well in fairness to Ruff, Recchi and Nas were bad coaches as well. It does seem like Ruff was a guy who leaned on his assistants a bit for X’a and O’s and adjustments. And that is how things can drop of with a a change (and then go into the toilet after the head coaching change).

 

[ZYXWVUT]

The problem we will have, that any team will have is that these good bottom 6ers, that hit the market, will be overpaid by the fact that there will be 10+ teams wanting them. People still complain about Palat, but at least he's a middle 6 player at worst and can be a key piece on a top line with the right players.

What is the projected contracts for the likes of Trenin and Joshua?

really would like trenin - i had thought maybe something along the lines of 4x $2.5ish might get it done?

 

[NJDevs26]

Well in fairness to Ruff, Recchi and Nas were bad coaches as well. It does seem like Ruff was a guy who leaned on his assistants a bit for X’a and O’s and adjustments. And that is how things can drop of with a a change (and then go into the toilet after the head coaching change).

Why lean on guys you don't even pick though? This is a big disconnect to me, there's no way Ruff picked all these guys who he had no real connection with before he got here while Fitz clearly had a connection with at least Recchi, Nas and Green. Brunette I'm sure was partially hired because Lindy was on the hot seat, I don't know if Fitz had a prior relationship with him but I suspect he had to given the way he personalizes everything and the fact their careers overlapped (apparently they were on the same team at least a year in Nashville so I'm gonna go with yes there too).

If Chris Taylor or another Ruff disciple was the assistant than maybe I'd buy the lassez-faire thing but not with these guys.

 

[Bleedred]

One thing about the assistant coaches though

Both Brunette and Green were “Associate coach” these last two years. I would say the associate coach has more input than just the assistant, which was someone like Recchi or McGill currently. And I’m pretty sure associate coaches make more than a guy that just has the assistant title.

We’ve never had an associate coach before Brunette last year, at least not in title. Not every team does have one.

I wouldn’t be surprised if only about 5 teams or even fewer have one. I know Scott Arniel of Winnipeg has the title of associate coach to Rick Bowness.

John Stevens was Darryl Sutter’s “associate coach” in LA for I think the entire time Sutter was there. He was also an assistant there before Sutter got there and I believe he was even the interim for several games between the Kings firing (I can’t remember who, was it one of the Murray’s?) the head coach and hiring Sutter. He then succeeded Sutter as head coach, which only lasted a little over a year.

 

[ZYXWVUT]

if kahkonen is unable to dress in any or all of these upcoming games, i bet they bring up poulter to protect the other two guys waiver status in case they need mop-up duty, or the slim chance someone other than allen starts over these final four.

 

[Bleedred]

if kahkonen is unable to dress in any or all of these upcoming games, i bet they bring up poulter to protect the other two guys waiver status in case they need mop-up duty, or the slim chance someone other than allen starts over these final four.

I think there's a chance they'll give Daws a game, but I was thinking the same thing. That they'll just play Allen the last 4 games. I guess they could call up Poulter instead of one of the other two.

I'm skeptical last night wasn't going to be Kahkonen's last game anyway.

 

[Devils Trap]

I will say, losing Brunette is probably the single worst thing Fitz has done in his tenure here.

In the last 3 season he has:
- Led a presidents trophy winning team
- Been behind the bench with a team who set their best regular season record ever
- Taken a mediocre roster to comfortably make the playoffs and make finish with 100+ points which NO ONE expected.

He clearly had a MASSIVE positive impact on this roster because its not luck when everywhere you go those teams have unreal seasons.

 

[ZYXWVUT]

I will say, losing Brunette is probably the single worst thing Fitz has done in his tenure here.

In the last 3 season he has:
- Led a presidents trophy winning team
- Been behind the bench with a team who set their best regular season record ever
- Taken a mediocre roster to comfortably make the playoffs and make finish with 100+ points which NO ONE expected.

He clearly had a MASSIVE positive impact on this roster because its not luck when everywhere you go those teams have unreal seasons.

i am with you, but i just dont know how to put that on fitz - and i am not fitz apologist by any means whatsoever. the coach wouldnt have gotten fired anywhere in the league after leading the team to its best regular season in franchise history.

 

[Bleedred]

I will say, losing Brunette is probably the single worst thing Fitz has done in his tenure here.

In the last 3 season he has:
- Led a presidents trophy winning team
- Been behind the bench with a team who set their best regular season record ever
- Taken a mediocre roster to comfortably make the playoffs and make finish with 100+ points which NO ONE expected.

He clearly had a MASSIVE positive impact on this roster because its not luck when everywhere you go those teams have unreal seasons.

My idea was to tell Lindy after last season that he has one more year and Brunette takes over for him following the 23-24 season. And Brunette is promised to take over in 24-25. That happened with Hitchcock to Yeo (lol) before his last year with the Blues. And like Ruff, Hitchcock didn't even last the full year before they handed it over to Yeo early. They even announced it publicly that this was the plan and everybody knew about it. Hitchcock may have gave the idea that he was going along with it because he was going to retire anyway, but he coached the Stars the next year for one season, then was a midseason replacement for Edmonton the year after that.

Do I know for a fact that this did not happen and Brunette refused once Nashville wanted to hire him NOW? No, I don't. Maybe it did?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Brunette left the Panthers and they made it to the Cup. Fraud alert?

The one guy no one can complain about (though there’s this weird group on twitter that wants to trade him for some reason):

 

[Devils731]

i am with you, but i just dont know how to put that on fitz - and i am not fitz apologist by any means whatsoever. the coach wouldnt have gotten fired anywhere in the league after leading the team to its best regular season in franchise history.

I think some of my worry would be that visually we could see an impact to team cohesion, forecheck, and neutral zone play last year compared to all other Ruff years; could Devils management not see it? Or couldn’t properly attribute the positives to? Either would be concerning.

Adding to that, we saw how awful the team was playing this season but management and coaches kept saying the system was fine and it was all the players. Then the team made small tweaks after like 60 games, which didn’t address a lot of the teams problems.

So those 2 items leave me concerned that management isn’t doing a good enough job understanding the team’s play. I believe theyre smart and I know they experienced but those are 2 things that are red flags to the job they’re doing with coaches.

 

[ZYXWVUT]

I think some of my worry would be that visually we could see an impact to team cohesion, forecheck, and neutral zone play last year compared to all other Ruff years; could Devils management not see it? Or couldn’t properly attribute the positives to? Either would be concerning.

Adding to that, we saw how awful the team was playing this season but management and coaches kept saying the system was fine and it was all the players. Then the team made small tweaks after like 60 games, which didn’t address a lot of the teams problems.

So those 2 items leave me concerned that management isn’t doing a good enough job understanding the team’s play. I believe theyre smart and I know they experienced but those are 2 things that are red flags to the job they’re doing with coaches.

you don't have to rationalize being skeptical/concerned with management to me, because i share that same sentiment. until they prove last season was not an ultimate aberration, i dont give them any benefit of the doubt of belief.