Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I don't think even fans are that nuts...I do think some fans think our only chance of winning IS Jack putting up 150 points. or remaining one-dimensional.


Jack's had five seasons of 'roaming around'...how much longer does he get to do so before we figure out, oh he needs to learn more than just that before the TEAM can have sustainable success?

I've said he needs to grow up, but you don't go completely the other way with him on a 180. Not sure why that's a hot take here. And lol, really? We're putting years 1/2 of Jack when the team was a blatant failure because of other things besides him? I wouldn't even put this year on Jack's immature level, that's like issue 1000 on a team with way worse issues than their superstar currently free styling a dislocated shoulder most likely for 55-60 games. Some of you need to take a deep breath with him. It's the equivalent of blaming a QB in the NFL because the rest of the team is shit.

 

[NJDevs26]

LOL I'm not blaming them for 'let Jack be Jack' his first three seasons when he was learning and the team was **** anyway, but now he's mastered the offensive end and the team needs to learn how to win. You don't win Cups with completely one-dimensional stars.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I don't think even fans are that nuts...I do think some fans think our only chance of winning IS Jack putting up 150 points. or remaining one-dimensional.


Jack's had five seasons of 'roaming around'...how much longer does he get to do so before we figure out, oh he needs to learn more than just that before the TEAM can have sustainable success? For starters, dude still needs Haula or whomever stapled to him cause he isn't good at faceoffs, this was a thing last year before his mystery injury this year. And the fact that Jack's play off the puck has gotten worse the last few months is a red flag tbh, injury or no injury.

He needs Haula because his arm is dangling from the side of his body. And who cares about faceoffs? The Devils won 60% of them and still got body bagged by Buffalo, I'm sick and tired of the faceoff debate legitimately mattering in today's NHL

 

[NJDevs26]

He needs Haula because his arm is dangling from the side of his body. And who cares about faceoffs? The Devils won 60% of them and still got body bagged by Buffalo, I'm sick and tired of the faceoff debate legitimately mattering in today's NHL

If it's not a big deal then why can't he do it at at least a level where he doesn't need a caddy for it? You take away from the rest of the team when you need an inferior player to caddy with Jack just for that reason. And I specifically pointed out it was NOT injury related, this was a thing last year when he wasn't injured.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

LOL I'm not blaming them for 'let Jack be Jack' his first three seasons when he was learning and the team was **** anyway, but now he's mastered the offensive end and the team needs to learn how to win. You don't win Cups with one-dimensional stars.

Patrick Kane and Alex Ovechkin were some of the worst defensive players of the last decade in terms of metrics and still won Cups. Teams like the Kings who won Cups with Anze Kopitar need that to win Cups because they have lesser talent behind him. FWIW, Sid was complete shit defensively too when he broke in and look how far he's come as a player. Give it time, you're all losing your heads because of how bad this team is.

 

[NJDevs26]

Patrick Kane and Alex Ovechkin were some of the worst defensive players of the last decade in terms of metrics and still won Cups. Teams like the Kings who won Cups with Anze Kopitar need that to win Cups because they have lesser talent behind him. FWIW, Sid was complete shit defensively too when he broke in and look how far he's come as a player. Give it time, you're all losing your heads because of how bad this team is.

The Ovechkin who needed Barry Trotz specifically because the Caps kept going belly-up with their one-dimensional approach, that Ovechkin? Kane was an all-world offensive talent but he's a winger, you don't generally bring as much 'other stuff' from that position unless you've got Ovechkin's physicality or Elias's brain - and those Hawks teams were stacked elsewhere.

 

[bossram]

I think my allure to Sullivan is what he's done with Pens rosters when they've been missing guys. It was a whole argument here about how coaches should be able to mend and get wins out of good rosters regardless what happens, I think if. you put Sullivan on this NJ team this year and they're probably making the playoffs since he finds a way to eek out wins when Jack/Nico were out by switching up the system to be more defensive. My whole thing with Berube is that how much of his success was getting one of the greatest goaltending runs in the sport's history, arguably greatest run ever.

What is Sullivan getting out of his roster healthy though...? Crosby has been healthy and playing at an elite level the last two seasons, yet can't make the playoffs. IMO Sullivan has also shown a lot of inflexibility to change his style of play from their Cup winning era, despite the roster changing a lot and the core being older.

Berube's cup-winning team was running 54% xG in the regular season (4th overall). They were legit good. Hot goaltending helps, of course. Binnington was only .914 in the playoffs though, he didn't win them the Cup. It did take his heater to get them into the playoffs.

IMO Berube has shown a lot more versatility in his coaching over time, as the Blues' roster changed.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

The Ovechkin who needed Barry Trotz specifically because the Caps kept going belly-up with their one-dimensional approach, that Ovechkin? Kane was an all-world talent but he's a winger, you don't need as much 'other stuff' from that position and those Hawks teams were stacked elsewhere.

Or maybe the Caps never did anything until Kuznestov became their elite 2C after years having garbage behind Nick Backstrom who's been the most underrated center of the past decade. And right...? That's my whole point, you keep bringing up back Jack like he's the ONLY great piece to this roster. Why can't this Devils team be similar to those Hawks teams of yesteryear and allow Jack to be their Patrick Kane

 

[RSeen]

Yep. Has been this way for a while.

Yesterday was a great outcome. Improved their draft lottery odds. And having a meltdown like that substantially reduces the likelihood that Green will be hired as the full-time HC, Honestly an optimal outcome.

Fully agree. Last thing I want is Green to be the coach going forward.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

If it's not a big deal then why can't he do it at at least a level where he doesn't need a caddy for it? You take away from the rest of the team when you need an inferior player to caddy with Jack just for that reason. And I specifically pointed out it was NOT injury related, this was a thing last year when he wasn't injured.

Nathan MacK is below 50% on faceoffs every year and he's the second best player on the planet and the Avs won a Cup being bottom 5 FO%. They don't matter, simple as that. And that line of Haula and Jack worked last year outside of faceoffs, they weren't just attached to the hip because of that.

 

[NJDevs26]

Or maybe the Caps never did anything until Kuznestov became their elite 2C after years having garbage behind Nick Backstrom who's been the most underrated center of the past decade. And right...? That's my whole point, you keep bringing up back Jack like he's the ONLY great piece to this roster. Why can't this Devils team be similar to those Hawks teams of yesteryear and allow Jack to be their Patrick Kane

So we should settle for Jack being one-dimensional and take great pains to build a pristine roster around him rather than putting a little more on his plate and maybe not hope for an unrealistically perfect roster? Nobody's asking him to hit guys, how about playing angles a little bit enough to help on the PK the way Lemaire did with Kovlachuk rather than having some fourth-liner hope to break even? How about a few less turnovers or whinefests to the refs?

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

So we should settle for Jack being one-dimensional and take great pains to build a pristine roster around him rather than putting a little more on his plate and maybe not have an unrealistically perfect roster? Nobody's asking him to hit guys, how about playing angles a little bit enough to help on the PK the way Lemaire did with Kovlachuk rather than having some fourth-liner hope to break even? How about a few less turnovers or whinefests to the refs?

The Hawks had beyond perfect rosters, they were winning Cups with Niemi and guys like Vermette as their 2C. But again, I agree that he needs to grow up, but saying you want him to be neutered for the sake of defense is completely foolish. They have a Selke 2C who can do play any heavy defensive mins that Jack can't. Or maybe, how about building a bottom 6 that was similar to 22-23 that you don't have to ask your franchise center to do drive the entire bus offensively and defensively

 

[NJDfan86]

What is Sullivan getting out of his roster healthy though...? Crosby has been healthy and playing at an elite level the last two seasons, yet can't make the playoffs. IMO Sullivan has also shown a lot of inflexibility to change his style of play from their Cup winning era, despite the roster changing a lot and the core being older.

Berube's cup-winning team was running 54% xG in the regular season (4th overall). They were legit good. Hot goaltending helps, of course. Binnington was only .914 in the playoffs though, he didn't win them the Cup. It did take his heater to get them into the playoffs.

IMO Berube has shown a lot more versatility in his coaching over time, as the Blues' roster changed.

I mean his teams are regularly in the top of the league for territorial results, so I don't know why we would hang him not being able to drag the teams Hextall saddled him with to the playoffs.

Also - Crosby's elite level isn't top enough to drag a roster as decrepit as the current Pen's roster to Cup contender.

 

[NJDevs26]

Nathan MacK is below 50% on faceoffs every year and he's the second best player on the planet and the Avs won a Cup being bottom 5 FO%. They don't matter, simple as that. And that line of Haula and Jack worked last year outside of faceoffs, they weren't just attached to the hip because of that.

Every coach thinks faceoffs matter, whether you guys and the analytics people think they do or not. While I do think they get overrated a bit, they definitely matter. It matters more when your franchise center needs a third-liner on his line, it'd be one thing if you had an Elias or whomever that was at least a first-line caliber player taking draws but we don't. Kane could have Toews or whomever do the dirty work on his line.

 

[NJDevs26]

The Hawks had beyond perfect rosters, they were winning Cups with Niemi and guys like Vermette as their 2C. But again, I agree that he needs to grow up, but saying you want him to be neutered for the sake of defense is completely foolish. They have a Selke 2C who can do play any heavy defensive mins that Jack can't. Or maybe, how about building a bottom 6 that was similar to 22-23 that you don't have to ask your franchise center to do drive the entire bus offensively and defensively

I think some of you take any form of accountability at all as 'neutering', hence all the hand-wringing at any coach who's a so-called disciplinarian.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Every coach thinks faceoffs matter, whether you guys and the analytics people think they do or not. While I do think they get overrated a bit, they definitely matter. It matters more when your franchise center needs a third-liner on his line, it'd be one thing if you had an Elias or whomever that was at least a first-line caliber player taking draws but we don't.

Again, Haula worked with Jack last year outside of the whole faceoff stuff. It's hard to fault them thinking it wouldn't work this year but this year NOTHING has worked with whatever they've done so I can't fault them totally in that regard as much the coaching staff blows

I think some of you take any form of accountability at all as 'neutering'.

You just said you wanted our franchise center to begin penalty killing a la 2011-2012 Kovalchuk which, oh yeah, led to his back being destroyed and one of the factors why he took his ball and went home. How isn't playing a guy who should focus solely 5v5 and powerplay time to penalty kill to learn some defense not some sort of neutering his game?

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Every coach thinks faceoffs matter, whether you guys and the analytics people think they do or not. While I do think they get overrated a bit, they definitely matter. It matters more when your franchise center needs a third-liner on his line, it'd be one thing if you had an Elias or whomever that was at least a first-line caliber player taking draws but we don't. Kane could have Toews or whomever do the dirty work on his line.

They matter on the special teams and empty net situations, every other situation is pointless to argue about faceoffs because rarely does a shot go in directly off of a draw or something else that led to a puck battle/decision but I'm not having this discussion in totality for the 100th time here lol

 

[NJDevs26]

Dude played 24 minutes a game under Pete, which was insane for a forward and did it for a full regular season and long playoff run. Jack's never going to need to do THAT with Nico around. And anyone's back can go out, doesn't matter if they get overplayed for one season or not - as if he wasn't playing major minutes for Atlanta since he was eighteen years old anyway. Not many are built like Ovechkin.

And let's not kid ourselves, he didn't leave cause of his back - he left cause he was getting bouquets thrown at him during the lockout and could get just as much money in a shorter timeframe playing shorter seasons at home as he could slogging it out here.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Dude played 24 minutes a game under Pete, which was insane for a forward and did it for a full regular season and playoffs. Jack's never going to need to do THAT with Nico around. And anyone's back can go out, doesn't matter if they get overplayed for one season or not - as if he wasn't playing major minutes for Atlanta since he was eighteen years old anyway. Not many are built like Ovechkin.

And let's not kid ourselves, he didn't leave cause of his back - he left cause he was getting bouquets thrown at him during the lockout and could get just as much money playing at home as he could slogging it out here.

He left because of the escrow but you're kidding yourself if you don't think his usage didn't come into the back of his mind and he knew he'd be crippled by 35 playing the amount he was. He was basically crippled in the 2012 playoffs anyway and needed to take pain killing shots to play as soon as the Flyers series began

 

[MasterofGrond]

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

What is Sullivan getting out of his roster healthy though...? Crosby has been healthy and playing at an elite level the last two seasons, yet can't make the playoffs. IMO Sullivan has also shown a lot of inflexibility to change his style of play from their Cup winning era, despite the roster changing a lot and the core being older.

Berube's cup-winning team was running 54% xG in the regular season (4th overall). They were legit good. Hot goaltending helps, of course. Binnington was only .914 in the playoffs though, he didn't win them the Cup. It did take his heater to get them into the playoffs.

IMO Berube has shown a lot more versatility in his coaching over time, as the Blues' roster changed.

The Penguins should've won the 2021 and 2022 series v Isles and Rags and got undone by putrid goaltending. (@Bleedred can attest to this as my fellow goalie shit talker) Sullivan put them in that spot to win them those series countless times and the players consistently failed. Up 2-0 on NYR in game 6 and Evan Rodriguez takes a shitty cross check v Lindgren in retaliation that lead to a PPG + Game 5 in 2021 where the Pens outshot the Isles 50-16 or some shit in Game 5 and Tristan Jarry has the worst f*** up you ever see by a goalie. Not sure how that's on Sullivan in either instance. And again, I don't see Berube's system working with this team at all. You mentioned Kyrou and yet he was one of the happier players that Berube was dismissed in St Louis this year.


(4:02 for ERod cross check)

(Josh Bailey OTW in game 5)

Islanders 3-2 Penguins (May 24, 2021) Final Score - ESPN (Game 5 box score, shots were closer than I thought, 50-28 which is still LMAO to lose via Jarry's f***up

 

[Bcap88]

Wish more of the forward group had timo’s mentality

 

[bossram]

I mean his teams are regularly in the top of the league for territorial results, so I don't know why we would hang him not being able to drag the teams Hextall saddled him with to the playoffs.

Also - Crosby's elite level isn't top enough to drag a roster as decrepit as the current Pen's roster to Cup contender.

NJ was elite territorially last season. Do we want Lindy back?

I think xG overstates how good PIT is actually playing, given watching them. I don't think they are creating as much as the metrics think (lots of shots but not really dangerous chances).

PIT has also been bad defensively this season, and that's an area the next Devils' coach needs to shore up.

 

[NJDevs26]

LOL I don't even want to think about that Pens-Rangers series, they should have beaten a vastly superior Rangers team with ****ing Louie Domingue, they were within like five minutes of doing so and the Rangers wound up getting all the way to up 2-0 against Tampa in the Conference Finals needing freaking Palat to derail their dream run

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Wish more of the forward group had timo’s mentality

Palat should've been reamed by whoever he was with last night on a 2 on 1 too and decided to throw the shittest pass ever cross ice