Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[Bcap88]

The Toffoli debate is mainly a ruff issue in that ruff refused to detach Toffoli from Hughes

 

[devilsblood]

Toffoli played 3 times as much (62% of his 5v5 min) with Jack as any other center on our team - his results away from Jack this year are just SSS noise. There was no Jack in Calgary, and no Jack in Winnipeg and his on ice results have been relatively stable.

The Timo argument is a total red herring as:
1) Timo was barely healthy while Toffoli was here, he was terrible in the early parts of the season.
2) Who plays where on the PP is a coaches decision, and coaches are inherently fallible.
3) Even with Toffoli there was a "top 6" spot for him because he is one of the teams 6 best forwards when healthy.

His micro stats this year certainly paint a different picture than your anecdotal observations.

yeah let's ignore his terrible numbers away from Jack, because it's noise. Let's ignore the terrible PP as well.

But he's a good rush player because micro stats say he is.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Is a fringe top-10 powerplay really worth being called terrible?

It was definitely bad at times, but I mean, the first month of the season counts, you know.

 

[devilsblood]

The Toffoli debate is mainly a ruff issue in that ruff refused to detach Toffoli from Hughes

Well when he played him with Nico it went poorly. Probably because Nico plays in defensive situations, and not the most choice offensive situations. Small sample perhaps, but should a coach keep running a player in a role which is showing very poor early results?

If Toffoli is going to play it should be with a player like Jack in predominantly offensive situations. I have no problem with that.

 

[NJDfan86]

yeah let's ignore his terrible numbers away from Jack, because it's noise. Let's ignore the terrible PP as well.

But he's a good rush player because micro stats say he is.

The PP isn't any better right now - more shots are going in but it is worse across the board in terms of shot quantity and quality. The PP was also ungodly good to start the year but I guess Toffoli only gets the blame.

And, tip of the cap to you for hand waving away 10,000 5v5 minutes of Toffoli's career numbers by clinging to a 300min sample to support your confirmation bias.

 

[devilsblood]

Is a fringe top-10 powerplay really worth being called terrible?

It was definitely bad at times, but I mean, the first month of the season counts, you know.

Are we also counting the recent run after Toff was traded?

 

[MasterofGrond]

Are we also counting the recent run after Toff was traded?

Ok, what was the number prior to his trade?

Because I promise you it wasn't in the bottom 10.

 

[Guttersniped]

I hate the colors and the jerseys cause they look just like the Rangers with that lettering and I'm not supporting a team that's not playing here full time but if anyone's interested...

Those unis have too much blue for @Satans Hockey lol

Those are the NY Liberty colors, might be a homage to them. (Wait, looked it up and Liberty are Seafoam Green/Black and this is Turquoise/Navy Blue. Close.)

All the teams have the Rangers thing, they haven’t named the teams yet so they don’t have logos. League came together in ~5 months.

 

[devilsblood]

The PP isn't any better right now - more shots are going in but it is worse across the board. The PP was also ungodly good to start the year but I guess Toffoli only gets the blame.

And, tip of the cap to you for hand waving away 10,000 5v5 minutes of Toffoli's career numbers by clinging to a 300min sample to support your confirmation bias.

Toffoli is 31, is clearly slow as heck, and was bad playing away from Hughes this year. His on ice numbers from 2014 aren't that relevant in this discussion.

Does anyone really think if Toffoli was on the 3rd line this season in NJ that he would have good possession numbers?

 

[TrufleShufle]

Ok, what was the number prior to his trade?

Because I promise you it wasn't in the bottom 10.

They talked about it being record breaking bad since January. Like all time.

 

[devilsblood]

Ok, what was the number prior to his trade?

Because I promise you it wasn't in the bottom 10.

As of March 1st, in terms of goals/60 it was still fringey top 10, so the recent run really hasn't swayed the numbers.

We do know though that it stunk for awhile with toffoli. Does the early season stretch count? Yes, and if it rebounded with him the large stretch of stink could be waved away, but it never did, and I think we can all agree it wasn't working.

 

[NJDfan86]

Toffoli is 31, is clearly slow as heck, and was bad playing away from Hughes this year. His on ice numbers from 2014 aren't that relevant in this discussion.

Does anyone really think if Toffoli was on the 3rd line this season in NJ that he would have good possession numbers?

Again, if you are willing to cling to his play away from Jack with the Devils, why aren't you using his play with Winnipeg so far to prove your point? Surely he couldn't be playing well there given they don't have Jack.

 

[MasterofGrond]

They talked about it being record breaking bad since January. Like all time.

Yeah, and the first 3 months of the season still count.

Turns out that after his last game with NJ the team's cumulative PP% was 22.6%

Since he left it has risen all the way to *checks notes* 22.6%.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Yeah, and the first 3 months of the season still count.

Turns out that after his last game with NJ the team's cumulative PP% was 22.6%

Since he left it has risen all the way to *checks notes* 22.6%.

That's fine, but it was obvious for a while it was stale and a change was needed and wasn't going to happen until Fitz forced Greens hand and gave him no option besides running 4 guys out there.

Again, if you are willing to cling to his play away from Jack with the Devils, why aren't you using his play with Winnipeg so far to prove your point? Surely he couldn't be playing well there given they don't have Jack.

I and many others said this before he was traded, he could and most likely would go to other teams and thrive. Outside of Jack, he didn't work in our system. Wasn't a good fit.

 

[MasterofGrond]

That's fine, but it was obvious for a while it was stale and a change was needed and wasn't going to happen until Fitz forced Greens hand and gave him no option besides running 4 guys out there.

Ok so it was stale and needed to change, and it hasn't moved either way. Does that seem like a Toffoli issue to you? Or a coaching one that has yet to be fixed?

 

[Guttersniped]

I have a vision for next year's team and I know I am going to get yelled at for this and I do not care.


Bratt-Hischier-Meier
Bertuzzi-Hughes-Holtz
Palat-Haula-Mercer
Goote-Lazar-Bastian

MacDermid (yes, re-sign him to vet min), Halonen, Nosek? Extras

Hughes-Hamilton
Zadorov-Marino
Siegenthaler-Nemec

Markstrom
Allen


I think Tyler Bertuzzi and Nikita Zadorov would be great additions to this team. Bertuzzi is the kind of prick that can actually play hockey that we need. He's a UFA as is Zadorov.

Trade Bahl and a 1st for Markstrom.

I like this team a lot.

Not sold on Zadorov as 2nd pair defender with real responsibilities, he’s played on the 3rd pair quite a bit. He also can’t stick with a team and will have a big contract ask.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

The powerplay hit some extreme lows this season where it didn't even look like and advantage. Players were not in sync whatsoever and not having a pure shooter/goal scorer out there was killing them. Guys like Hamilton/Meier/Holtz need to be out on the top unit to complement players like Jack/Bratt/Luke etc.

The ppwerplay going ice cold cost them many points in the standings. There was games where the score was tight but we would go 0/4 or 0/5 on the powerplay where a goal here and there would of been big.

 

[devilsblood]

Again, if you are willing to cling to his play away from Jack with the Devils, why aren't you using his play with Winnipeg so far to prove your point? Surely he couldn't be playing well there given they don't have Jack.

I don't know how they are using him over there. Looks like he is still playing with good players, and I bet it's in some offensively conducive minutes.

But I got to roll. I'll pick this up later if anyone wants to continue the debate.

 

[MasterofGrond]

He was thriving here! (To a reasonable definition of the word thriving).

Who CARES if he only works with Jack (which was hardly categorically proven). He scored at a good clip, was only about as porous defensively as the rest of our roster, and he spent a lot of the year playing alongside a crippled Jack.

He's not going to carry an elite line, and he wasn't expected to nor paid to nor did we pay enough in assets to acquire a guy who would.

 

[NJDfan86]

I don't know how they are using him over there. Looks like he is still playing with good players, and I bet it's in some offensively conducive minutes.

But I got to roll. I'll pick this up later if anyone wants to continue the debate.

I thought it was just Jack? Now we should remove his numbers from all good players? He is getting a higher rate of deployment in the Dzone with Winnipeg then he got in NJ (18 OZ/26NZ/16DZ after a 71% OZ deployment here)- so your bet was incorrect.

But the reality is this isn't a debate - you have made up your mind on what Toffoli is and have shown no interest in entertaining that you might be off on your evaluation.

 

[JK3]

I’ll never understand defending the Toffoli/Shara trade, kind of a waste, a lot of cope going on there.

 

[MasterofGrond]

I have a vision for next year's team and I know I am going to get yelled at for this and I do not care.


Bratt-Hischier-Meier
Bertuzzi-Hughes-Holtz
Palat-Haula-Mercer
Goote-Lazar-Bastian

MacDermid (yes, re-sign him to vet min), Halonen, Nosek? Extras

Hughes-Hamilton
Zadorov-Marino
Siegenthaler-Nemec

Markstrom
Allen


I think Tyler Bertuzzi and Nikita Zadorov would be great additions to this team. Bertuzzi is the kind of prick that can actually play hockey that we need. He's a UFA as is Zadorov.

Trade Bahl and a 1st for Markstrom.

I like this team a lot.

I kinda like Zadorov, but I think he's going to get overpaid for what he actually brings on the ice (i.e. a third pairing defender). I'd ideally like to aim a little higher, and see if we can find a guy capable of middle pairing minutes. But if the deal is fair, I have no issues bringing him in to replace Bahl.

No interest in Bertuzzi. Guy rides shotgun next to some very good players this year and can barely produce. And he's not his uncle, he doesn't bring anything like what you'd need from an intangibles perspective to be worth being a very very poor man's Bratt on the ice.

 

[Triumph]

The problem with the power play now is that Jack cannot shoot and he does not have the same facility/elusiveness with the puck. When he is healthy, he is zooming around the offensive zone causing trouble for defenders. Here he's flubbing a lot of pucks, his passes aren't as precise, and it's throwing everything off. The power play getting bounces doesn't change that.

I’ll never understand defending the Toffoli/Shara trade, kind of a waste, a lot of cope going on there.

Oh okay.

Some of you really aren't used to the Devils making trades with roster players. Lou didn't do it for 20 years, Shero did it with Henrique and Larsson and that's about it. It's going to happen now.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Yeah it's tough when your best PP facilitator/distributor can't shoot and stickhandle as confidently as he normally would. Normally this would be mitigated somewhat by having Dougie's cannon to rotate on there for a different look, but, you know.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Ok so it was stale and needed to change, and it hasn't moved either way. Does that seem like a Toffoli issue to you? Or a coaching one that has yet to be fixed?

Both, what would Toffoli contribute if he wasn't on the PP? Only 5v5 and only with Jack? Yea coach should have changed it up, but it's still a hinderance when you have a unatasker who is useless when tasked with anything else.

Nothing is black and white, I think Toffoli made the fluidness of the team structure much worse. Bad coach on top of that. This team had multiple problems, that's obvious right?