Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[devilsblood]

So is it the deployment and being put in better positions to succeed?

We do know he shot more during Feb, and also posted the fastest skating time of any player this season during the outdoor game. Just seems like odd things for a guy who has hit a wall. At least physically, I see more argument for a guy who was struggling mentally.

I also think the team was in it's worst stretch in Feb so everyone's numbers will be down.

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

In retrospect getting Toffoli was a bad move even though 95% of us thought it was good at the time. Felt so forced putting him with Jack just so he can get his goals so the trade looked good. I didn't realize he was so dang slow. What did our scouts miss here.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

In retrospect getting Toffoli was a bad move even though 95% of us thought it was good at the time. Felt so forced putting him with Jack just so he can get his goals so the trade looked good. I didn't realize he was so dang slow. What did our scouts miss here.

Not really sure how you can say that getting Toffoli was a "bad move", when he had 26 goals in 61 games and basically brought back similar value to what we traded for him.

I think pretty much everyone realized he was slow.

 

[Maine Fan]

I am still concerned about Fitzgerald's number 1 offseason priory. Many experts and Devils fans feel that getting a goalie is the #1:priory. I feel strongly that there is a 1a and 1b priory for Tom.

During this offseason he must get a good coach and staff. It is too bad we lost Burnette. Also during this offseason he must get a goaltender to go with Jake Allen. There are the top three that is always discussed. Here is an additional 3.

3 Goalie Targets for the New Jersey Devils That Nobody is Talking About

Until the move is made, acquiring a number one goalie will be all -or at least most- that New Jersey Devils fans talk about. We've seen it sink seasons for the

pucksandpitchforks.com

Maybe he should put Marty Brodeur in charge of getting the goalie or getting the choices together for Tom.

Tom could focus his time on getting a head coach.

There is Devils staff that can do the workups on players available for the team needs.


Head Coach and Goalie are numbers 1a & 1b for me this offseason

 

[Brooklyndevil]

Pass on this as well.

Maybe as defensive assistant but that seems unlikely.

Wasn’t he once an assistant for the Devils. Could swear he was?

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

Not really sure how you can say that getting Toffoli was a "bad move", when he had 26 goals in 61 games and basically brought back similar value to what we traded for him.

I think pretty much everyone realized he was slow.

He was literally attached to Jack's hip. You put Holtz in that spot and he scores 40.
Toffoli was atrocious and still was fed top line minutes and 1st line pp.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

There's nothing to say he isn't a good assistant but he never really had much interest in it, he resigned after two years, came back for a brief spell after Pete got fired, went to Minnesota for a year then resigned again and hasn't been in the game for seven years now. If he wanted a job he could get a job.

It’s a shame. I really enjoyed him on the NHL network

 

[Call Me Al]

Not really sure how you can say that getting Toffoli was a "bad move", when he had 26 goals in 61 games and basically brought back similar value to what we traded for him.

I think pretty much everyone realized he was slow.

i’m not sure how you can say he brought back similar value when we got 3/4 of a season from him and then 2 draft picks with a less-than-great chance of having any impact in the next 3-4 years.

sharangovich will pot a good amount of goals, play wing or center up and down the lineup, kill penalties and be on a fair contract for the next few years.

I was excited for the trade because i thought we would compete this year and he would be an integral part of that, but i don’t care that he led our team in goals being force fed minutes with hughes and pp1 time. he’s the smartest guy on the short bus, .

we sold low on sharangovich and i wouldn’t make that trade again at all. we did not get good enough value in the end, it’s ok to admit it was a mistake.

 

[NjDevsRR]

He was literally attached to Jack's hip. You put Holtz in that spot and he scores 40.
Toffoli was atrocious and still was fed top line minutes and 1st line pp.

Toffoli has five 30+ goal pace seasons under his belt….

He scores wherever he goes. “Atrocious”, lol

 

[Devils731]

i’m not sure how you can say he brought back similar value when we got 3/4 of a season from him and then 2 draft picks with a less-than-great chance of having any impact in the next 3-4 years.

From my perspective, the question is did the Devils lose value overall in the chain of trades.

I think the Devils did lose some value but not very much.

Devils lost Sharangovich and currently have a 2nd round pick. I think Sharangovich may not have even garnered a 2nd round pick if traded on his own.

The Devils lost some draft spots within the rounds and some time value but at the end of the day I think it’s arguable whether they lost some value or even possibly gained some value, all depending on how valuable you thought Sharangovich was last offseason.

 

[Triumph]

i’m not sure how you can say he brought back similar value when we got 3/4 of a season from him and then 2 draft picks with a less-than-great chance of having any impact in the next 3-4 years.

sharangovich will pot a good amount of goals, play wing or center up and down the lineup, kill penalties and be on a fair contract for the next few years.

I was excited for the trade because i thought we would compete this year and he would be an integral part of that, but i don’t care that he led our team in goals being force fed minutes with hughes and pp1 time. he’s the smartest guy on the short bus, .

we sold low on sharangovich and i wouldn’t make that trade again at all. we did not get good enough value in the end, it’s ok to admit it was a mistake.

Sharangovich as an arbitration-eligible player coming off a bad year and UFA in 2 years was not worth very much. Once a player reaches arbitration age, they are basically going to be paid 'fair value', and the trouble is that Sharangovich has better years to look back on. Sharangovich is a fine player for a bad team because he's weak defensively and doesn't make up for it with offense on the backend - what determines how good he is in a given year is going to be whether or not he's scoring on 10, 15, or 20% of his shots. This year he's scoring on close to 20% so people think he's really good. For a team like Calgary that has sometimes struggled to attract free agents, a body like Sharangovich can be better than gambling with the UFA market, and indeed it's worked out quite well for them. Calgary's added several clients of Sharangovich's agent over this season as well.

I would absolutely make the trade again. Sharangovich would never be back here in 2023-24 as an arbitration-eligible player who couldn't get in the lineup in the playoffs. Using a 3rd round pick to upgrade him, getting an RH shot for PP1 and a player who could play with Jack - great move. Everyone thinks Toffoli didn't work out and he was still on pace for a career best in goals. The Devils did lose a tiny amount of value but eggs and omelets, I'd rather gamble on the player outside the organization who's been successful than the player inside the organization who's been pushed aside.

 

[Devils731]

sharangovich will pot a good amount of goals, play wing or center up and down the lineup, kill penalties and be on a fair contract for the next few years.

I think there are still questions on who Sharangovich is.

This seasons 18% shooting percentage is leading to some rose colored glasses because he certainly won’t be shooting that most of his career.

If he ends up as a 14% shooter he will score some goals as a middle 6 player but if he turns out to only be 11% then I think people will pick the rest of his game apart over time.

 

[MasterofGrond]

If you think Toffoli is bad or was bad for us, I have deep concerns about your ability to evaluate play.

He was worse than he was last year in Calgary (probably because he isn't an ideal fit with our roster), but he was legitimately good, a net positive to the team, and probably more valuable than Rango even in a year where every puck yegor touches goes in.

I thought the Toffoli dragging was unfair when he was still here, how is it getting even more farcical, lmao

 

[devilsblood]

Wasn’t he once an assistant for the Devils. Could swear he was?

3 headed monster coaching staff I believe?

 

[NJDfan86]

i’m not sure how you can say he brought back similar value when we got 3/4 of a season from him and then 2 draft picks with a less-than-great chance of having any impact in the next 3-4 years.

This seems to be a common line of thinking here, and I do not know why - the Devils have most of their core pieces in place, they will use these picks to acquire NHL talent (a la the Palm's deal).

Just because teams acquire picks doesn't mean they intend to use them to draft players.

 

[devilsblood]

If you think Toffoli is bad or was bad for us, I have deep concerns about your ability to evaluate play.

He was worse than he was last year in Calgary (probably because he isn't an ideal fit with our roster), but he was legitimately good, a net positive to the team, and probably more valuable than Rango even in a year where every puck yegor touches goes in.

I thought the Toffoli dragging was unfair when he was still here, how is it getting even more farcical, lmao

He's slow as heck which hinders play.

This isn't about Rango.

 

[My3Sons]

He's slow as heck which hinders play.

This isn't about Rango.

if NJ was in a playoff spot there'd be some grumbling but it largely go unnoticed in my view. this whole season has been a disappointment. Guys with signficant injuries have been roundly criticized and of course the goaltending did them no favors. The coaching was not agile and Fitz's statements about wanting a goalie since the close of last season didn't help when it took until the TDL to get some new goalies. Now look how the new guys are doing (granted it's a small sample size) and it's easy to look at the "what if" scenarios. Toffoli is part of that of course but in a struggling season everyone's flaws are magnified.

 

[NJDfan86]

Toffoli's speed didn't hinder his play - he played exactly the same as he always played and was very productive (both On Ice results and Microstats). He was very good for the Devils this year but most people think that every player on our team has to be a burner or they aren't a "good fit".

 

[MasterofGrond]

He's slow as heck which hinders play.

This isn't about Rango.

If he’s “hindering play” it sure doesn’t show in the results.

 

[AfroThunder396]

I can't believe we're still rehashing this. Sharangovich is a fine but not great player who clearly didn't have a role on the team and was a healthy scratch down the stretch. He is the same exact guy he was here, a PK specialist with a pretty good shot and pretty terrible ES defense. He's getting more ice time now and is shooting at a career high, that's the only difference. We traded him for a guy who had as many points as Bratt did last season.

Even if we kept Sharangovich and gave him the same deal as Calgary did and he has the same season for us that he's having in Calgary - then what? Is he the difference between us making the playoffs and not making the playoffs? Does he fix our goaltending? Our PK is fine, and he has virtually the same number of goals for CGY that Toffoli did for us. So if we don't make that trade, what's different? Other than the fact that we're staring down a big fat raise for Sharangovich in two years (like 5-6M, if he's a 30 goal scorer) or letting him UFA walk for free.

People kept saying "we need more shooters!" and "we need to improve the PP!" but then when we make a move to address those things people complain about him not being a good fit. Same thing with the criticism of Timo - "we need to get bigger and stronger!" and "we need to get better on the forecheck!" but then people criticize him for lacking speed and agility in transition. We're not going to get Prime Jagr for spare parts.

 

[devilsblood]

Toffoli's speed didn't hinder his play - he played exactly the same as he always played and was very productive (both On Ice results and Microstats). He was very good for the Devils this year but most people think that every player on our team has to be a burner or they aren't a "good fit".

Maybe it didn't hinder his play, as he has always been slow, but it did hinder team play.

Can a player like Jack elevate Toffoli's on ice numbers? Sure but take Jack away from him and he's below water. I'm not a fan of a player like that playing in a prominent position.

Also note the "why didn't Timo play top6, RW and top PP earlier?" critique is ignoring that Toffoli was playing in those spots. He was a clog.

If he’s “hindering play” it sure doesn’t show in the results.

Below water 5v5 GF% and part of a lousy PP, but yes Jack was able to carry his possession #'s.

 

[devilsblood]

if NJ was in a playoff spot there'd be some grumbling but it largely go unnoticed in my view. this whole season has been a disappointment. Guys with signficant injuries have been roundly criticized and of course the goaltending did them no favors. The coaching was not agile and Fitz's statements about wanting a goalie since the close of last season didn't help when it took until the TDL to get some new goalies. Now look how the new guys are doing (granted it's a small sample size) and it's easy to look at the "what if" scenarios. Toffoli is part of that of course but in a struggling season everyone's flaws are magnified.

Yeah if everything was working, goal tending was good, Timo playing great on the 3rd line, Tyler producing on Jack's wing and on the PP I probably wouldn't argue as strongly.

But he is amongst the worst skaters in the league, in his 30's and a pending UFA. Signing him to a significant contract this offseason was likely going to be a bad move no matter how good the team played this season.

 

[NJDfan86]

Maybe it didn't hinder his play, as he has always been slow, but it did hinder team play.

Can a player like Jack elevate Toffoli's on ice numbers? Sure but take Jack away from him and he's below water. I'm not a fan of a player like that playing in a prominent position.

Also note the "why didn't Timo play top6, RW and top PP earlier?" critique is ignoring that Toffoli was playing in those spots. He was a clog.


Below water 5v5 GF% and part of a lousy PP, but yes Jack was able to carry his possession #'s.

Toffoli played 3 times as much (62% of his 5v5 min) with Jack as any other center on our team - his results away from Jack this year are just SSS noise. There was no Jack in Calgary, and no Jack in Winnipeg and his on ice results have been relatively stable.

The Timo argument is a total red herring as:
1) Timo was barely healthy while Toffoli was here, he was terrible in the early parts of the season.
2) Who plays where on the PP is a coaches decision, and coaches are inherently fallible.
3) Even with Toffoli there was a "top 6" spot for him because he is one of the teams 6 best forwards when healthy.

His micro stats this year certainly paint a different picture than your anecdotal observations.

 

[HoliksGhost]

 

[TrufleShufle]

If you are a top line player and are useless when not being used a certain way, you shouldn't be considered a top line player. I strongly believe if we went into this season with Govich instead of Toffoli we could have seen very different results. I know that is going to upset some people that that sentence was even spoken, and I am ok with that.

Think about all the ways we could have used Govich that we couldn't use Toffoli, the numerous line changes we could have tried that we couldn't because Toffoli would bring down any line outside of Jack and Nico. Look at the PP now that he's not on it. Toffoli was very good at one thing, but outside of that one thing he was useless. Give me a guy pretty good at everything and amazing at nothing instead of a guy amazing at one thing and shitty at everything else, every day.

This is all my opinion btw.