Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[JimEIV]

Well...you do you then. I think he was the biggest loss in franchise history, but I don't blame him 100% for leaving. As much as I admire Lou, that was a major fault of his was that he too often let major UFA's walk. Niedermayer was a HOFer, franchise player and maybe Lou shouldn't have gone so balls-to-the-wall in his contract negotiations with him. That's ultimately what drove him away. Lou was also rumored to have tried to trade for Rob Niedermayer while Scott was still on the team, but that ultimately fell short. I'm glad #27 is hanging from the rafters and was at the Prudential Center that night cheering him on.

Lou flew to Cranford BC and offered him a max deal before he left...what more could he have done?

Lou was certainly a hard ass in earlier negotiations but before Yankee/Net owned the Devils, the Devils were a mom and pop organization running on a shoestring budget. He had to run the team the way he did to achieve what he wanted.

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

Regardless of the narratives that were spun during the time...

I honestly believe Niedermeyer leaving cost us cups. 30 minutes a night from him along with Rafalski, Martin and White is 3 other levels from what we iced after the lockout.

He left a void that we couldn't fill for over a decade. That coupled with the simultaneous retirement of Stevens was impossible to overcome.

Great player for sure... can't forgive what he did to the organization and I actually hate seeing his number in the rafters.

Plus we got screwed. Win a cup (so you're arguably the top team in the league), and then BOOM. Lockout. Lose your best dman to retirement AND to free agency. BOOO

 

[My3Sons]

I know we've all been fawning over what he's done, so why not continue?

There was a "stretch" where Jack went pointless in 2 of 3 games, the last one being against Toronto when our winning streak ended. Since essentially Thanksgiving, starting 11/25, here are his numbers.

29 GP, 26 G, 17 A, 43 P, +9, 4 PPG, 4 GWG, 137 Shots (lol), 19% shooting, 20:44 ATOI
1 hat trick
6 multi-goal games (hat trick included)
14 multi-point games, including the last 4 games in a row
Only 3 games without collecting a point

I remember Hall's point streak being something insane in terms of number of games and I wish I could find more video to appreciate Patty's insane run he had in 05-06 returning from his illness, but this stretch by Jack feels like it is approaching the most dominant scoring pace in our team's history. I can't wait to see how he finishes this season.

So Hughes is an obvious puck hog. Look at those numbers. Only 17 assists? I'm sure we will get some excuses like he's playing with relatively subpar wingers.

 

[Triumph]

Regardless of the narratives that were spun during the time...

I honestly believe Niedermeyer leaving cost us cups. 30 minutes a night from him along with Rafalski, Martin and White is 3 other levels from what we iced after the lockout.

He left a void that we couldn't fill for over a decade. That coupled with the simultaneous retirement of Stevens was impossible to overcome.

Great player for sure... can't forgive what he did to the organization and I actually hate seeing his number in the rafters.

It's extremely unlikely Niedermayer and Rafalski would've played a single game together after the lockout. There just wasn't room for both players.

 

[JimEIV]

It's extremely unlikely Niedermayer and Rafalski would've played a single game together after the lockout. There just wasn't room for both players.

The cap situation was f***ed because of Niedermeyer...the Mogilny, McGillis and Malakhov debacle is what threw everything out of whack....none of that happens without Niedermeyer leaving.

 

[Triumph]

Lou flew to Cranford BC and offered him a max deal before he left...what more could he have done?

Lou was certainly a hard ass in earlier negotiations but before Yankee/Net owned the Devils, the Devils were a mom and pop organization running on a shoestring budget. He had to run the team the way he did to achieve what he wanted.

Niedermayer's last contract dispute was in 2000, after YankeeNets owned the team.

While we're all working on conspiracy theories I still think Lou wanted to try to get Scott back from Anaheim in 2010 but it just didn't work out and he got Kovalchuk instead.

The cap situation was f***ed because of Niedermeyer...the Mogilny, McGillis and Malakhov debacle is what threw everything out of whack....none of that happens without Niedermeyer leaving.

No, what happens instead is that Niedermayer is on a max contract and the Devils have no room to add Rafalski. All three of those guys were off the cap by February and the Devils were still relatively tight to the cap.

 

[MartyOwns]

Regardless of the narratives that were spun during the time...

I honestly believe Niedermeyer leaving cost us cups. 30 minutes a night from him along with Rafalski, Martin and White is 3 other levels from what we iced after the lockout.

He left a void that we couldn't fill for over a decade. That coupled with the simultaneous retirement of Stevens was impossible to overcome.

Great player for sure... can't forgive what he did to the organization and I actually hate seeing his number in the rafters.

i’ve never agreed with you more

 

[tailfins]

I think what Fitz is looking at is the Bruins model:



video is here:

NHL Videos - Highlights and Analysis from the National Hockey League

Watch highlights and analysis video from the National Hockey League. TSN's NHL Insiders and analysts deliver video content, betting information, and fantasy hockey advice.

www.tsn.ca

I don't think Fitz can demand a lot of discounting, but I think the point is that Fitz would want players who value being here as part of the package. The Devils shouldn't have to outbid other teams at this point.

If Bratt wants top dollar, then I think Fitz would be right to let him go / trade him. Bratt's a great player, but some shared sacrifice is needed to build a great culture. If Bratt's not willing to bend at all, then he doesn't fit.

 

[HBK27]

Lou flew to Cranford BC and offered him a max deal before he left...what more could he have done?

Lou was certainly a hard ass in earlier negotiations but before Yankee/Net owned the Devils, the Devils were a mom and pop organization running on a shoestring budget. He had to run the team the way he did to achieve what he wanted.

There was plenty Lou could've done before it got to that point. If you believe he absolutely had to take such a hardline approach with a franchise player in Niedermayer, so be it. If you want to get pissed at Niedermayer for wanting to go with a Cup with his brother and view that as being selfish, have at it as well. I don't really care to rehash the Niedermayer departure any further. It was clearly not just about money as evidenced by Niedermayer taking less with Anaheim.

 

[JimEIV]

Niedermayer's last contract dispute was in 2000, after YankeeNets owned the team.

While we're all working on conspiracy theories I still think Lou wanted to try to get Scott back from Anaheim in 2010 but it just didn't work out and he got Kovalchuk instead.



No, what happens instead is that Niedermayer is on a max contract and the Devils have no room to add Rafalski. All three of those guys were off the cap by February and the Devils were still relatively tight to the cap.

That's silly.
YankeeNet didn't happen until end of March 2000. Operating budgets don't change in 3 months

Rafalski was signed for two more years after the lockout.

 

[Triumph]

That's silly.
YankeeNet didn't happen until March 2000. Operating budgets don't change in 3 months

Scott Niedermayer signed his new contract in November of 2000. Not buying this or your awareness of time. Even Lou admitted he overspent in 2002. While YankeeNets obviously did not offer an unlimited budget, there should've been more money there. Maybe there wasn't and that's just the price you pay - twist a guy's arm enough and he gets sick of it.

Rafalski was signed for two more years after the lockout.

I know that. There would not have been room for him if the Devils keep Niedermayer. It's very simple. Either he or Elias goes.

 

[OmNomNom]

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I thought NJ had offered Niedermayer more money to re-sign but he went to Anaheim to play with his brother? NJ certainly tried hard to keep him if I remember correctly. Elias very easily could have been a Ranger even in THIS timeline so yeah maybe he goes if Niedermayer stays, hard to say.

 

[OmNomNom]

I think what Fitz is looking at is the Bruins model:



video is here:

NHL Videos - Highlights and Analysis from the National Hockey League

Watch highlights and analysis video from the National Hockey League. TSN's NHL Insiders and analysts deliver video content, betting information, and fantasy hockey advice.

www.tsn.ca

I don't think Fitz can demand a lot of discounting, but I think the point is that Fitz would want players who value being here as part of the package. The Devils shouldn't have to outbid other teams at this point.

If Bratt wants top dollar, then I think Fitz would be right to let him go / trade him. Bratt's a great player, but some shared sacrifice is needed to build a great culture. If Bratt's not willing to bend at all, then he doesn't fit.

i really do love that mentality - it builds the idea of "playing for the logo on the front, not the name on the back", and also builds humility. it also helps the team know no one is "bigger than anyone else" (for the most part)

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I think what Fitz is looking at is the Bruins model:



video is here:

NHL Videos - Highlights and Analysis from the National Hockey League

Watch highlights and analysis video from the National Hockey League. TSN's NHL Insiders and analysts deliver video content, betting information, and fantasy hockey advice.

www.tsn.ca

I don't think Fitz can demand a lot of discounting, but I think the point is that Fitz would want players who value being here as part of the package. The Devils shouldn't have to outbid other teams at this point.

If Bratt wants top dollar, then I think Fitz would be right to let him go / trade him. Bratt's a great player, but some shared sacrifice is needed to build a great culture. If Bratt's not willing to bend at all, then he doesn't fit.

Basing your roster construction on guys shortchanging themselves is pretty flawed. All this stuff about Fitz using Jack as a ceiling would be incredibly dumb.

 

[Bleedred]

Holik seems to be somewhat underrated by the fanbase, while Madden is somewhat overrated.

Might be because of the generation gap to a degree.

You have to be probably a certain age to have remembered Holik here (the first time) but Madden was here 7 years after Holik and only 3 years before Holik left.

Not counting the Holik reunion year where he was like 38 and not all that good anymore.

I’m not saying Madden wasn’t decent, but he was a poor man’s Holik and wasn’t even nearly as good as Travis Zajac either. But he was on a bunch cup teams and Zajac wasn’t.

And you could also respect Holik for telling you point blank he was going to UFA about a year in advance and not pretending it wasn’t about money. He was raging mad over his arbitration ruling the summer before that and said he was going to the market.

 

[JimEIV]

Scott Niedermayer signed his new contract in November of 2000. Not buying this or your awareness of time. Even Lou admitted he overspent in 2002. While YankeeNets obviously did not offer an unlimited budget, there should've been more money there. Maybe there wasn't and that's just the price you pay - twist a guy's arm enough and he gets sick of it.



I know that. There would not have been room for him if the Devils keep Niedermayer. It's very simple. Either he or Elias goes.

You don't have to rely on my awareness or recollection... it's all documented. The money didn't come with YankeeNet until AFTER new TV deals were struck.

HOCKEY; Devils Sold for $175 Million to YankeeNets' Unit (Published 2000)

John J McMullen sells New Jersey Devils to Puck Holdings, YankeeNets affiliate, for $175 million; photo (M)

www.nytimes.com

 

[Bleedred]

Regardless of the narratives that were spun during the time...

I honestly believe Niedermeyer leaving cost us cups. 30 minutes a night from him along with Rafalski, Martin and White is 3 other levels from what we iced after the lockout.

He left a void that we couldn't fill for over a decade. That coupled with the simultaneous retirement of Stevens was impossible to overcome.

Great player for sure... can't forgive what he did to the organization and I actually hate seeing his number in the rafters.

Well...you do you then. I think he was the biggest loss in franchise history, but I don't blame him 100% for leaving. As much as I admire Lou, that was a major fault of his was that he too often let major UFA's walk. Niedermayer was a HOFer, franchise player and maybe Lou shouldn't have gone so balls-to-the-wall in his contract negotiations with him. That's ultimately what drove him away. Lou was also rumored to have tried to trade for Rob Niedermayer while Scott was still on the team, but that ultimately fell short. I'm glad #27 is hanging from the rafters and was at the Prudential Center that night cheering him on.

I agree with both sides of this.

I’m fine with him in the rafters also.

It's extremely unlikely Niedermayer and Rafalski would've played a single game together after the lockout. There just wasn't room for both players.

Yup

Rafalski waited around for a few days to see what Niedermayer’s decision would be.

If we signed Niedermayer, Rafalski would have been gone.

 

[NJDevs26]

Scott Niedermayer signed his new contract in November of 2000. Not buying this or your awareness of time. Even Lou admitted he overspent in 2002. While YankeeNets obviously did not offer an unlimited budget, there should've been more money there. Maybe there wasn't and that's just the price you pay - twist a guy's arm enough and he gets sick of it.



I know that. There would not have been room for him if the Devils keep Niedermayer. It's very simple. Either he or Elias goes.

I always liked Rafalski a little more precisely because he waited around for the Nieds situation to ‘resolve’ itself before signing. Clearly it was an either or situation, either we get Nieds or Rafalski-McGillis but we weren’t getting Nieds and Raf or the latter wouldn’t have sat on his hands only to resign instantly after Nieds left. And as has been referenced we were a cap plus team even with plan B

 

[Bleedred]

I still maintain Pandolfo at one point was one of the most overrated players in franchise history.

With how many years he’s been gone and the memories fading of him, I think it’s okay to now say he wasn’t very good and not many people care. That’s no longer controversial to say.

There was a poster here that’s been MiA for 10 years now (I even remember his name) that would have chopped me with a machete for saying that.

I wouldn’t even put Pandolfo in a ring of honor type of thing if we actually put players in there. Even Madden would be borderline for me in one of those. Zajac and Holik definitely. Pandolfo is an absolute no.

“If it weren’t for Pandolfo’s massive shutdown capabilities, we would have gotten scored on more. You people don’t appreciate how much of a shutdown warrior he was!”

Yeah, sure, okay. A team with Stevens, Niedermayer, Holik (one of the better defensive forwards in franchise history) and Brodeur in net wasn’t enough to take away goals from everybody that Jay Pandolfo just took away that much more.

And I don’t wanna hear about post-Stevens/Niedermayer years. Those were some of Marty’s best and Pandolfo was completely washed by the second post-lockout year and absolutely by their third. He was a traffic cone when Julien was putting him up against all the opposition big guns and Madden wasn’t too much further behind him (or really in front of him as Pando was 2-3 steps behind) by 2007.

I’m utterly shocked he was still playing in the NHL in 2013. He was utterly useless no later than year one of his gold watch contract that was bought out by us. Which was always rationalized as “He’s overpaid now because he was so underpaid for years by us”.

 

[glenwo2]

Basing your roster construction on guys shortchanging themselves is pretty flawed. All this stuff about Fitz using Jack as a ceiling would be incredibly dumb.

Exactly.

Plus, how much money has Brad Marchand made to date again?

I doubt he took less when it came to Contract negotiations.

It's easy to talk like this from a Pedestal after you got your desired money.

 

[Clam Jensen]

This is absolutely precious.

 

[NJDevs26]

Exactly.

Plus, how much money has Brad Marchand made to date again?

I doubt he took less when it came to Contract negotiations.

It's easy to talk like this from a Pedestal after you got your desired money.

Marchand at $6.125 million per has been a massive bargain tbh, he has put his money where his mouth is

 

[imMagnum]

Has anyone put themselves out there yet? I'll do it.

Jack Hughes is going to be on the same tier as Connor McDavid.

I don't understand why people put a cap on his talent. The sky is the limit for this kid. Not only does he have the top 1% of talent in the league, he's got the confidence he can be the best and has the work ethic to back it up.

His growth has been vertical since he's entered the league. He's constantly overcome any shred of doubt in his game. "He hasn't played against men" -> "he forces plays too much" -> "ya, he generates offense but he doesn't finish".

That last one is my favorite. We knew Jack was going to learn how to finish plays. Did any of us think he would be an elite goal scorer at any point in his career? Much less in two years? The rate of his improvement is insane.

The #1 thing that blows me away about McDavid is how he comes into camp and his teammates are always like, "McDavid is even better than he was last season". Every year I think there is no way that's possible. "What could he possibly work on to get exponentially better?" McDavid comes to camp this year, says he worked a ton on one-timers, and now he's leading the league in goals. Every year McDavid finds something that can elevate his game. He combines his top 1% talent with exceptional work ethic and confidence to become elite at it in an incredibly short time frame.

I say the above because Jack still has a ton to his game he can become elite at, even though he's already pacing at 50g & 100p as a 21 year old. How could there possibly be a ceiling for this kid? Imagine Jack deciding he's going to become elite at one-timers during an off-season. Can anyone really say he wouldn't be able to do it now, after he drastically improved his shot at a rapid pace?

To conclude my ranty post, Jack has the combination of incredible rare and special talent, high confidence, exceptional work ethic, develops skills at an incredibly fast rate, and has no shortage of skills he can improve upon. Jack is as bullish as it gets and no one should be calling the top on him.

 

[njdevils1982]

I'm always looking for a reason to post this ..

no... not obvious at all....