Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[Triumph]

Boston is making Toronto look silly. Say that every year it's happened, it's met with a new excuse, whatever team they lost against in the playoffs, same thing. There is always some reason it's not their fault. I know their fans seem to feel that way, I just mistakenly thought the rest of the league and fans also knew it was BS and the team, no matter how good a few players on their team were, was constructed like dogshit. Important players are out for playoffs all the time, if you get made to look silly without them, the team still looks silly. It's not playing against the "bottom end," it's against the team on the ice in front of them.

I don't want a team that looks like a "bottom end" of a team just because Bratt is hurt or Nico has the shits.

Why are you defending Toronto so hard?

Toronto isn't 'looking silly', they're losing. They have a bad goalie, they have some bad defensemen, they don't have great depth. I do not think the team is constructed like dogshit, though. They were by far the team most harmed by the COVID-19 shutdown and the salary cap freeze.

I am defending Toronto because A: our team makeup is like theirs and B: I think they're a generally well-managed team who have gotten some horrific luck. I do think Matthews hasn't had the kind of playoffs where he has taken over a series and just scored a goal a game. That said, I heard the same shit about Washington for years, too. Sometimes there isn't really a reason why stuff happens, and especially over very short series. But there always has to be a narrative.

 

[My3Sons]

MacKinnon, Nichushkin, Rantanen is on a another level of size, strength and pushback compared to anything we got after Timo in our top 6.

That's their top 3 in minutes (ATOI)...

Ours Top 3 in ATOI is Jack, Nico and Bratt....

Those two groups are nothing alike in size and strength....the Colorado group can eat ours as an hors d'oeuvre.

Edit: it's almost laughable:

MacKinnon 6' 200
Nichushkin 6'4 - 210
Rantanen 6'4 - 215

Jack 5'11 - 175
Bratt 5'10 - 175
Nico 6'1 - 175

All according to Hockey Reference.... there's literally an extra 100 pounds in the Colorado top 3 compared to ours.

Meh. Meier is tougher than all three of the Colorado players. The Colorado guys being bigger and stronger allows them to apply their skill in more situations but no player says oh no I have to watch my back with MacKinnon/Nichushkin/Ranstnen on the ice.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Nico has played 91% of the possible games the last 3 years, and most of those missed were due to concussions IIRC.

There is also no way that Nico is 175 lbs. He is much closer to 200.

 

[My3Sons]

Nico has played 91% of the possible games the last 3 years, and most of those missed were due to concussions IIRC.

There is also no way that Nico is 175 lbs. He is much closer to 200.

He was listed at 195 by Swiss National Team maybe 2 years ago for Worlds. He was 175 maybe the beginning of his draft year.

 

[NJDevs26]

Now let’s include the height and weight of the top defender on each team

Also, good ****ing lord how many times does it need to be repeated that Nico is not 175 pounds? He is at least 195 pounds. Bratt is certain well over that mark now too.

Nico has played 91% of the possible games the last 3 years, and most of those missed were due to concussions IIRC.

There is also no way that Nico is 175 lbs. He is much closer to 200.

Take it up with hockey DB, hockey reference and the Devils’ own website which all have the same height and weight for Nico, Jack and Bratt. Unless you’re doing the weighing saying their weight is different from every listed source is hearsay.

It’s certainly possible they’re all out of date but we can’t say for certain unless we’re weighing them ourselves.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Toronto isn't 'looking silly', they're losing. They have a bad goalie, they have some bad defensemen, they don't have great depth. I do not think the team is constructed like dogshit, though. They were by far the team most harmed by the COVID-19 shutdown and the salary cap freeze.

I am defending Toronto because A: our team makeup is like theirs and B: I think they're a generally well-managed team who have gotten some horrific luck. I do think Matthews hasn't had the kind of playoffs where he has taken over a series and just scored a goal a game. That said, I heard the same shit about Washington for years, too. Sometimes there isn't really a reason why stuff happens, and especially over very short series. But there always has to be a narrative.

Idk, watching even just the last few minutes of last nights game and seeing Toronto's still healthy, no excuse to be had, top line guys, coasting to get non icing clears with the goalie pulled and their season fading, kinda points to a reason it's not happening. They can't be this unlucky when it comes to the playoffs for this many years.

"I am defending Toronto because A: our team makeup is like theirs" And that's what I thought. We've watched it enough to know it doesn't work. Defending something just because it's what you have as well, even though it doesn't work is setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Take it up with hockey DB, hockey reference and the Devils’ own website which all have the same height and weight for Nico, Jack and Bratt. Unless you’re doing the weighing saying their weight is different from every listed source is hearsay.

It’s certainly possible they’re all out of date but we can’t say for certain unless we’re weighing them ourselves.

Just purely from the eye test, I can say with 100% certainty that rookie Nico is not the same weight as current day Nico.

 

[My3Sons]

Just purely from the eye test, I can say with 100% certainty that rookie Nico is not the same weight as current day Nico.

The IIHF for the upcoming worlds lists him at 194lbs. I’d say that’s the most up to date but sure they are lying.

Take it up with hockey DB, hockey reference and the Devils’ own website which all have the same height and weight for Nico, Jack and Bratt. Unless you’re doing the weighing saying their weight is different from every listed source is hearsay.

It’s certainly possible they’re all out of date but we can’t say for certain unless we’re weighing them ourselves.

How old are you and how do you manage to weigh the same as when you were 17?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

The IIHF for the upcoming worlds lists him at 194lbs. I’d say that’s the most up to date but sure they are lying.

I’d say that looks right. So he’s ~6-1 195lbs. 2nd in the Selke last season. No one would describe this player as a softy if he’s Canadian or American.

 

[TrufleShufle]

The IIHF for the upcoming worlds lists him at 194lbs. I’d say that’s the most up to date but sure they are lying.


How old are you and how do you manage to weigh the same as when you were 17?

 

[My3Sons]

I’d say that looks right. So he’s ~6-1 195lbs. 2nd in the Selke last season. No one would describe this player as a softy if he’s Canadian or American.

His problem is he only takes the beating to perform. If he swung his stick a bit it would help but id like to see half the guys in the NHL take the beating he does and make it work. He’s tough in his own way.

 

[Devils731]

I think Toronto may be interesting to study not because the best version of their team was poorly designed but that they decided to make their team worse each year to address their perceived shortcomings. IMO, it would have been better to lean into what made them best rather than trying to be good at everything.

A cherry picked but glaring example is adding a poor player like Reeves to Toronto. It made their team worse to address their “toughness” need, it made Toronto easier to win against since he’s bad at hockey even if it was harder on the body, and he’s a main factor in the turnover that led to the first goal last night.

In a cap world, be as great as you can be at something so that it’s incredibly hard for anyone to stop your strength. If you try to be a little bit of everything then you can struggle to be good enough at anything.

 

[Guttersniped]

I feel this is cearly a big issue, but one that, in large part was brought on by themselves
by going out and signing Tavares to a monster contract. Why would the other guys then be willing to sign at a discount?

Well this is kind of baked into the "soft" argument. Marner being banged up and Matthews being sick are ingredients in the soft cake as well.

It wasn’t about Tavares’ deal.

Other RFA deals matter here. Nylander held out for more money first.

Then Matthews asked for McDavid money (8 years/12.5m).

His camp pointed to the cap being 75m when McDavid signed vs 79.5m in 2018-19.

There’s no way Dubas could give him McDavid’s AAV and the only way he could keep that down was limiting the term to five years.

Matthews was way more mercenary than McDavid, or another way of looking at it, less of a sucker. McDavid was always going to be wildly, absurdly underpaid pretty early on in his deal. If the COVID cap freezes never happened a lot more stars would have gotten +10m earlier.

Matthews set the RFA framework for Marner. The other is was Marner was pissy because Lou only gave him Level A performance bonuses.

Lou gave him his speech about what matters is the logo in front, not the name on the back, to explain why the extra performance bonuses were bad and then gave them to Matthews saying “he deserved them”.

Now it’s not uncommon for top picks to get more performance bonuses than #5 picks but that speech from Lou probably seemed hypocritical.

 

[njdevils1982]

Toronto should have had more success in the past.

They are legitimately not very good right now in 2024.

And since Andersen started to get hurt (he was really good his first few years there) they've really had not good goaltending in the playoffs. The numbers for Campbell look good that one year, but he let in some pathetic goals to Montreal after they were up 3 games to 1. Which Carey Price just wasn't allowing.

Right now they're using a guy that they should be wishing was picked up when they put him on waivers in December.

The two biggest letdowns the Leafs have had with this current group were definitely 2020 and 2021. They SHOULD have beaten Montreal. I don't care if Montreal went to the cup finals. That was the weakest cup finalist since 2006. They also won the Western Conference bowl (whatever they call that trophy lol) while being an Eastern Conference team because of the whacky divisions. That team shouldn't have made it past Toronto.

And the 2020 play-in loss to Columbus was a gigantic failure and let down.

They weren't supposed to really win a round in 2017 when they first went, they probably weren't supposed to in 2018. They ALMOST beat Boston in 7 in 2019. They should have won at least one of those 2020 or 2021 rounds. They didn't even make the playoffs (technically they did) in 2020 because they lost in the stupid qualifying round to a mediocre Columbus team that probably wouldn't have made it if the season were 82 games and not 70 and there were only 16 playoff teams and not 24.

And then the 2021 was really bad after what happened before.

2022 they lost to the Lightning, who were on their way to their third cup final in a row and were already back to back champions. I could understand definitely questioning the Leafs at that point. I know I was. But the 2020 and 2021 losses were both embarrassing for this core. If they lost just one of those? Okay. But both of those? No, just no.

a lot of words to get to a point. i would just say toronto is a f***ing joke.

 

[My3Sons]

I think Toronto may be interesting to study not because the best version of their team was poorly designed but that they decided to make their team worse each year to address their perceived shortcomings. IMO, it would have been better to lean into what made them best rather than trying to be good at everything.

A cherry picked but glaring example is adding a poor player like Reeves to Toronto. It made their team worse to address their “toughness” need, it made Toronto easier to win against since he’s bad at hockey even if it was harder on the body, and he’s a main factor in the turnover that led to the first goal last night.

In a cap world, be as great as you can be at something so that it’s incredibly hard for anyone to stop your strength. If you try to be a little bit of everything then you can struggle to be good enough at anything.

Something tells me that Toronto’s problem is in the locker room and the interest of its top players in off ice pursuits.

 

[JimEIV]

Now let’s include the height and weight of the top defender on each team

Also, good ****ing lord how many times does it need to be repeated that Nico is not 175 pounds? He is at least 195 pounds. Bratt is certain well over that mark now too.

Single top defender? Top 2?

Luke was our top defender in ATOI 6'2-184
Their top defender is Makar. 5'11-187

Our two was Hamilton 6'6 -230
Our 3 was was Marino 6'1 181
Our 4 was Nemec 6'1-190

Their 2 was Devon Toews. 6'1 - 191
Their 3 was Byram 6-1 -190

Without Dougie our top 3 defenders were 13 pounds lighter than Colorado...


But Dougie being 6-6 230 is kinda of like one of those really big gummy bears that seem impossible to eat.... he's that soft

And if you are watching Colorado vs Winnipeg right now we could only wish for the forward support they get.... they had 5 skaters below the hash marks in their own zone that entire 2nd period...our guys cheat out of the zone and almost never engage besides a bit of digging high on the half wall.

 

[jkrdevil]

I think Toronto has gotten a little extra hype over the years because of being Toronto. Excluding the Canadian Division year, they have never finished above 3rd in the conference. Certainly a team that could go on a run, but never THE favorite. Outside the year they lost to the Habs, you can make an argument that every team they lost to is just better than them. Even last year with the Panthers given it was sandwiched between two seasons where Florida won the division.

I know there have been some comparisons of us moving forward and the Leafs. I think looking forward we will have better blue line talent Than they have ever had during Matthews era. And obviously they were impacted by the cap freeze and under estimating what impact bringing in Tavares for the amount they did would have on the Matthews and Marner asking prices.

 

[njdevils1982]

Something tells me that Toronto’s problem is in the locker room and the interest of its top players in off ice pursuits.

how many f***ing years later and the leafs have yet another "muskoka five" (or more) with NTCs and NMCs.....team is a laugh year after year after year....day by day, by day.......by day.... amen

Toronto Maple Leafs Salary Cap, Draft Picks, and Player Contracts - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Toronto Maple Leafs salary cap, contracts, roster, draft picks, salary, cap space, stats, salary cap projections, and daily cap tracking

www.capfriendly.com

The Maple Leafs and the Legacy of the Muskoka Five - The Hockey Writers Maple Leafs History Latest News, Analysis & More

The Muskoka Five were 5 players in Toronto who were too comfortable, content to lose, and spend summers by the lake. Who were they?

thehockeywriters.com

 

[Devils731]

they had 5 skaters below the hash marks in their own zone that entire 2nd period...our guys cheat out of the zone and almost never engage besides a bit of digging high on the half wall.

The Devils forward do cheat out of the zone…the odd time all 5 Devils aren’t all below the hash marks.

The Devils got killed this year when all 5 guys collapsed down low, which they did frequently, because the other team would keep 4-5 guys in on the forecheck knowing the Devils had no threat to leave the zone.

It was not uncommon the see the Devils have 2-3 guys below the goal line, the other 2-3 guys in the low slot, and somehow only 2-3 guy on the other team are being defended with 2-3 others with tons of time and space.

The Devils defensive problems weren’t from not enough guys collapsing down low, they had a bigger problem from everyone collapsing down low without actually gaining any defensive advantage in doing so.

 

[njdevils1982]

Single top defender? Top 2?

Luke was our top defender in ATOI 6'2-184
Their top defender is Makar. 5'11-187

Our two was Hamilton 6'6 -230
Our 3 was was Marino 6'1 181
Our 4 was Nemec 6'1-190

Their 2 was Devon Toews. 6'1 - 191
Their 3 was Byram 6-1 -190

Without Dougie our top 3 defenders were 13 pounds lighter than Colorado...


But Dougie being 6-6 230 is kinda of like one of those really big gummy bears that seem impossible to eat.... he's that soft

And if you are watching Colorado vs Winnipeg right now we could only wish for the forward support they get.... they had 5 skaters below the hash marks in their own zone that entire 2nd period...our guys cheat out of the zone and almost never engage besides a bit of digging high on the half wall.

hamilton is most definitely paul charmin soft.....with that size he could be wreaking opponents out there

 

[VoidCreature]

The Leafs have scored 2 or fewer goals in 8 of their last 9 playoff games and 10 of their last 15. That has more to do with their struggles than a lack of toughness.

 

[JimEIV]

I’d say that looks right. So he’s ~6-1 195lbs. 2nd in the Selke last season. No one would describe this player as a softy if he’s Canadian or American.

Nonsense. Hischier takes a beating and delivers nothing in return to anyone ever. ...you can object to the word "soft"....you can come up with a new word if you like for a player that takes all the abuse and gives none in return.

How about Beta?

 

[My3Sons]

The Leafs have scored 2 or fewer goals in 8 of their last 9 playoff games and 10 of their last 15. That has more to do with their struggles than a lack of toughness.

That and you’ve got 16 guys sitting around expecting four to do everything and three of those four have more important things to do than play hockey.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Nonsense. Hischier takes a beating and delivers nothing in return to anyone ever. ...you can object to the word "soft"....you can come up with a new word if you like for a player that takes all the abuse and gives none in return.

How about Beta?

I truly wonder how people with this mindset are even fans of the team. What an embarrassing take.

 

[HughesCorporation]

8-year deal kicks in next season. Varlamov isn't exactly young. Sorokin isn't going anywhere. The Isles are not going to panic and trade him. He also has an 8 plus million dollar cap hit with a NMC.

completely forgot about the 8year extension!! should have scrolled down cap friendly lol 66 mil cool cash that could be a disaster its Roy they need to get rid of