Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[devilsblood]

Bastian seemed like he wasn’t that great earlier in the season. I even wondered if maybe he wouldn’t start the season on the NHL team next season.

Then he left the lineup with injury and we were reduced to players on the 4th line that were throwbacks to the bums we were calling up back in the Shero days at the very beginning of the rebuild.

And then I was begging for Bastian back.

I think Bastian is a really good 4th liner.

The problem is, he is hurt a lot.

You ask above what is so good about Malenstyn, well for one thing, he played 82 games this year. I'm not going to pretend I know much about him, but he is a big guy, who, if also fast, would check some boxes. He's a lefty, so wouldn't threaten Bastian's spot, maybe a guy we look at if we don't have faith Foote(another oft injured guy) can stay healthy.

 

[devilsblood]

I don’t think so. I think that is just what is said when teams fail. How is being “soft” John Tavares’ problem and not, you know, that’s he’s just an okay player making 11 million dollars a year?

Colorado is far more similar to our group in play style and the way their cap was allocated when Mac was on that bargain deal. But we know you won’t make that comp for very obvious doomer reasons.

Man, Tavares has already been there 6 years. One more to go and Toronto is out from under that deal.

 

[Triumph]

Nylander's hurt and Matthews is sick enough that he's being pulled from games but yes, Toronto just doesn't have what it takes.

 

[devilsblood]

Nylander's hurt and Matthews is sick enough that he's being pulled from games but yes, Toronto just doesn't have what it takes.

Is this another tongue in cheek moment? I legit can't tell anymore.

But the above is a "this season" reasoning. The Toronto critique's are years in the making.

 

[Triumph]

Is this another tongue in cheek moment? I legit can't tell anymore.

But the above is a "this season" reasoning. The Toronto critique's are years in the making.

It's pretty easy to interpret. I don't think the Leafs are that good this season and in addition to that, 2 of their best players are not at 100%. It should be absolutely no surprise that they aren't doing well this year.

Toronto's biggest issues have been that their stars, as opposed to just about any other team, have tried to squeeze their GM, and that the salary cap didn't go up. Dubas was betting on there being a $90M cap in 2021 and instead we got COVID-19 and the cap isn't going to reach that until 2025. Throw in their big guys never having that dominant playoff that players of their stature should have and sometimes their top guys being hurt (Tavares in 2021, e.g.) and yeah that's where we are.

 

[TrufleShufle]

It's pretty easy to interpret. I don't think the Leafs are that good this season and in addition to that, 2 of their best players are not at 100%. It should be absolutely no surprise that they aren't doing well this year.

Toronto's biggest issues have been that their stars, as opposed to just about any other team, have tried to squeeze their GM, and that the salary cap didn't go up. Dubas was betting on there being a $90M cap in 2021 and instead we got COVID-19 and the cap isn't going to reach that until 2025. Throw in their big guys never having that dominant playoff that players of their stature should have and sometimes their top guys being hurt (Tavares in 2021, e.g.) and yeah that's where we are.

You put their lineup against pretty much any other team, just the names and stats and mix both teams together and tell someone to make a single team out of both of them. The first 3-4 out of 5 picked will be Leaf players against most any team. Which goes into what a lot of here were saying for a long time, its by committee. Boston without some of their elite boogymen who made them an elite team in the past, are still making the Leafs look silly. Which is why not wanting certain players no matter how skilled they are at one thing or a bunch of things, from Toffolli to Johnny hockey, makes sense sometimes.

Are we pretending this is a year in a vacuum? If not, they absolutely don't have what it takes and its been proven a number of time for a number of years. In the playoffs its a different sport, it becomes way more a team sport than regular season.

 

[devilsblood]

It's pretty easy to interpret. I don't think the Leafs are that good this season and in addition to that, 2 of their best players are not at 100%. It should be absolutely no surprise that they aren't doing well this year.

Toronto's biggest issues have been that their stars, as opposed to just about any other team, have tried to squeeze their GM,

I feel this is cearly a big issue, but one that, in large part was brought on by themselves
by going out and signing Tavares to a monster contract. Why would the other guys then be willing to sign at a discount?

and that the salary cap didn't go up. Dubas was betting on there being a $90M cap in 2021 and instead we got COVID-19 and the cap isn't going to reach that until 2025. Throw in their big guys never having that dominant playoff that players of their stature should have and sometimes their top guys being hurt (Tavares in 2021, e.g.) and yeah that's where we are.

Well this is kind of baked into the "soft" argument. Marner being banged up and Matthews being sick are ingredients in the soft cake as well.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Now you're soft if you're sick? Lol

 

[devilsblood]

Now you're soft if you're sick? Lol

Granted, Jordan is one of the greats of all time..........

 

[Cheddabombs]

18 sociopaths

They need to sign you to a contract then

 

[guitarguyvic]

I don’t think so. I think that is just what is said when teams fail. How is being “soft” John Tavares’ problem and not, you know, that’s he’s just an okay player making 11 million dollars a year?

One of the reasons that their core players aren't worth the percentage of the cap they are taking on is because of how soft they are. Is John Tavares soft? Actually I kind of think he is. Mentally soft. His counterparts in this series are Pavel Zacha and Charlie Coyle. He may be overpaid, but he still supposed to be a lot better of a player than either of those two, he should be dominating the matchup yet he's horribly pedestrian. This is what happens with the whole core. They have tons of pressure, they wilt every single season. From a grit standpoint, the core plays these playoff games at regular season intensity. Look at Marner last night, he was making lazy ass plays and losing board battles all f***ing night. Meanwhile Marchand is out there like a f***ing bull, completely relentless, hard on the puck, fighting tooth and nail for every inch of the ice.

They might be too top heavy, but it doesn't fully explain just how awful they have been in the playoffs. Plenty of top heavy teams have at least had SOME success in the playoffs...not this one...one series in like a decade or whatever the heck it is...that is HORRID.

Colorado is far more similar to our group in play style and the way their cap was allocated when Mac was on that bargain deal. But we know you won’t make that comp for very obvious doomer reasons.

Sure similar in play style, but that doesn't mean they were soft. The way MacKinnon can bulldoze through the opposition is more than just about speed and skating skill. A guy like Nichushkin is infinitely harder than just about anyone on our roster, and he's a top 6 player. I agree that of the last several cup winners they were probably the "softest", so emulating them is probably the easiest thing...but even so, this current Devils team is still much softer than they were. That's saying more about the Devils lack of it than the Avalanche's abundance.

It's also pretty damn ingenuine to cite isolated issues from this season knowing full well the Toronto core has been an embarrassment in the playoffs for almost a decade.

 

[njdevils1982]

18 sociopaths

why stop there? get a billy smith and hextall type as our two goalies

 

[Triumph]

You put their lineup against pretty much any other team, just the names and stats and mix both teams together and tell someone to make a single team out of both of them. The first 3-4 out of 5 picked will be Leaf players against most any team. Which goes into what a lot of here were saying for a long time, its by committee. Boston without some of their elite boogymen who made them an elite team in the past, are still making the Leafs look silly. Which is why not wanting certain players no matter how skilled they are at one thing or a bunch of things, from Toffolli to Johnny hockey, makes sense sometimes.

Sigh. The players aren't even on the team - Nylander has played one banged up game, Matthews has been sick for 2+ games - and now Boston's 'making them look silly'. Boston's making the bottom end of Toronto's roster look silly, and that's because it is a mismatched team. It's a coinflip series and Toronto's flipping poorly in part because they're missing their best guys.

Are we pretending this is a year in a vacuum? If not, they absolutely don't have what it takes and its been proven a number of time for a number of years. In the playoffs its a different sport, it becomes way more a team sport than regular season.

No team has been more penalized by the static salary cap than Toronto. I agree that those 4 players don't have what it takes. The plan was not for the team to only be those 4 guys and then scrape by with the rest of what they can get.

I feel this is cearly a big issue, but one that, in large part was brought on by themselves
by going out and signing Tavares to a monster contract. Why would the other guys then be willing to sign at a discount?

Because they want to win in Toronto. Why did Jack Hughes sign for a lower AAV than Dougie Hamilton? This is just silly talk. It has nothing to do with Tavares, you just made that up.

Well this is kind of baked into the "soft" argument. Marner being banged up and Matthews being sick are ingredients in the soft cake as well.

lol oh okay. Bobby Holik, soft player - guy couldn't even play Game 6 against Ottawa in 98. This is 'Nico is bad at not having his face broken by a slapshot' level of argument. Yes, the flu game happened, notice how that's something that happened almost 30 years ago and it's still talked about now?

Also William Nylander has barely missed any games in his career due to injury. It's just so funny when people invent narratives for things.

 

[Nubmer6]

Toronto should have sold Marner off when he demanded so much, just to send a message to the rest of the team. They would have gotten a haul of decent players too.

 

[HughesCorporation]

Sorokin needs to get away from Roy as fast as possible, patrick took some serious mojo from that guy.. at this point i may noy even want him
but i think he recovers

 

[devilsblood]

Because they want to win in Toronto.

Not sure if this is another t in c situation, nor do I know who the “they” is, the team or the players

Why did Jack Hughes sign for a lower AAV than Dougie Hamilton? This is just silly talk. It has nothing to do with Tavares, you just made that up.

I made up they signed Tavares to a huge contract?.. and then the guys that followed signed for very similar contracts.

Hamilton signed for significantly less then those guys.

lol oh okay. Bobby Holik, soft player - guy couldn't even play Game 6 against Ottawa in 98.

Holik was a physical player who won titles.

This is 'Nico is bad at not having his face broken by a slapshot' level of argument

Nico missed a bunch of games this year again. Not uncommon in his career.

how that's something that happened almost 30 years ago and it's still talked about now?

Also William Nylander has barely missed any games in his career due to injury. It's just so funny when people invent narratives for things.

These are not invented narratives. They are chapters in a larger story. For some guys like Holike some chapters are balanced by others. Some like MJ the chapters enhance an amazing overall story. And then for Toronto where every playoff chapter ends in defeat there is nothing to balance those downtimes.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

Sorokin needs to get away from Roy as fast as possible, patrick took some serious mojo from that guy.. at this point i may noy even want him
but i think he recovers

8-year deal kicks in next season. Varlamov isn't exactly young. Sorokin isn't going anywhere. The Isles are not going to panic and trade him. He also has an 8 plus million dollar cap hit with a NMC.

 

[JimEIV]

I don’t think so. I think that is just what is said when teams fail. How is being “soft” John Tavares’ problem and not, you know, that’s he’s just an okay player making 11 million dollars a year?

Colorado is far more similar to our group in play style and the way their cap was allocated when Mac was on that bargain deal. But we know you won’t make that comp for very obvious doomer reasons.

MacKinnon, Nichushkin, Rantanen is on a another level of size, strength and pushback compared to anything we got after Timo in our top 6.

That's their top 3 in minutes (ATOI)...

Ours Top 3 in ATOI is Jack, Nico and Bratt....

Those two groups are nothing alike in size and strength....the Colorado group can eat ours as an hors d'oeuvre.

Edit: it's almost laughable:

MacKinnon 6' 200
Nichushkin 6'4 - 210
Rantanen 6'4 - 215

Jack 5'11 - 175
Bratt 5'10 - 175
Nico 6'1 - 175

All according to Hockey Reference.... there's literally an extra 100 pounds in the Colorado top 3 compared to ours.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Sigh. The players aren't even on the team - Nylander has played one banged up game, Matthews has been sick for 2+ games - and now Boston's 'making them look silly'. Boston's making the bottom end of Toronto's roster look silly, and that's because it is a mismatched team. It's a coinflip series and Toronto's flipping poorly in part because they're missing their best guys.



No team has been more penalized by the static salary cap than Toronto. I agree that those 4 players don't have what it takes. The plan was not for the team to only be those 4 guys and then scrape by with the rest of what they can get.



Because they want to win in Toronto. Why did Jack Hughes sign for a lower AAV than Dougie Hamilton? This is just silly talk. It has nothing to do with Tavares, you just made that up.



lol oh okay. Bobby Holik, soft player - guy couldn't even play Game 6 against Ottawa in 98. This is 'Nico is bad at not having his face broken by a slapshot' level of argument. Yes, the flu game happened, notice how that's something that happened almost 30 years ago and it's still talked about now?

Also William Nylander has barely missed any games in his career due to injury. It's just so funny when people invent narratives for things.

Boston is making Toronto look silly. Say that every year it's happened, it's met with a new excuse, whatever team they lost against in the playoffs, same thing. There is always some reason it's not their fault. I know their fans seem to feel that way, I just mistakenly thought the rest of the league and fans also knew it was BS and the team, no matter how good a few players on their team were, was constructed like dogshit. Important players are out for playoffs all the time, if you get made to look silly without them, the team still looks silly. It's not playing against the "bottom end," it's against the team on the ice in front of them.

I don't want a team that looks like a "bottom end" of a team just because Bratt is hurt or Nico has the shits.

Why are you defending Toronto so hard?

 

[JimEIV]

Why are you defending Toronto so hard?

Because that's one of the first spreadsheet built teams in the league.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Because that's one of the first spreadsheet built teams in the league.

Are you against skill?!

 

[JimEIV]

Are you against skill?!

In a vacuum under the umbrella of fail to win yes

 

[Triumph]

Not sure if this is another t in c situation, nor do I know who the “they” is, the team or the players

lol. It refers to the stars of the team who have not 'taken less'.

I made up they signed Tavares to a huge contract?.. and then the guys that followed signed for very similar contracts.

They did not sign to similar contracts. Tavares's contract was longer.

Hamilton signed for significantly less then those guys.

This is a classic argument from you. It is the definition of a goalpost shift.

Holik was a physical player who won titles.

Holik was a guy who apparently couldn't be bothered to show up in 98. He's weak, is my point. He won a title as a 4th line center in 95 and then when he's relied on for more, he can't do anything.

Nico missed a bunch of games this year again. Not uncommon in his career.

Not what was being argued. This is a hammer seeing a nail. Nico has gotten injured a fair amount in his career, some of which is his fault and some of which isn't. Him having his face broken by a slapshot qualifies to me as 'not his fault'. Likewise, players can fall ill for reasons out of their control and miss games/play worse as a result. It is one of the pathological things here and among sports fans in general to not acknowledge this reality by citing a game from 30 years ago where one guy played well when sick. Nobody talks about the Ed Belfour flu game.

These are not invented narratives. They are chapters in a larger story. For some guys like Holike some chapters are balanced by others. Some like MJ the chapters enhance an amazing overall story. And then for Toronto where every playoff chapter ends in defeat there is nothing to balance those downtimes.

It's an invented narrative when a guy who doesn't miss games for injury happens to miss games for injury during the playoffs. Not winning is one thing, tying this injury into some larger narrative is invention.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

MacKinnon, Nichushkin, Rantanen is on a another level of size, strength and pushback compared to anything we got after Timo in our top 6.

That's their top 3 in minutes (ATOI)...

Ours Top 3 in ATOI is Jack, Nico and Bratt....

Those two groups are nothing alike in size and strength....the Colorado group can eat ours as an hors d'oeuvre.

Edit: it's almost laughable:

MacKinnon 6' 200
Nichushkin 6'4 - 210
Rantanen 6'4 - 215

Jack 5'11 - 175
Bratt 5'10 - 175
Nico 6'1 - 175

All according to Hockey Reference.... there's literally an extra 100 pounds in the Colorado top 3 compared to ours.

Now let’s include the height and weight of the top defender on each team

Also, good ****ing lord how many times does it need to be repeated that Nico is not 175 pounds? He is at least 195 pounds. Bratt is certain well over that mark now too.

 

[Bleedred]

Toronto should have had more success in the past.

They are legitimately not very good right now in 2024.

And since Andersen started to get hurt (he was really good his first few years there) they've really had not good goaltending in the playoffs. The numbers for Campbell look good that one year, but he let in some pathetic goals to Montreal after they were up 3 games to 1. Which Carey Price just wasn't allowing.

Right now they're using a guy that they should be wishing was picked up when they put him on waivers in December.

The two biggest letdowns the Leafs have had with this current group were definitely 2020 and 2021. They SHOULD have beaten Montreal. I don't care if Montreal went to the cup finals. That was the weakest cup finalist since 2006. They also won the Western Conference bowl (whatever they call that trophy lol) while being an Eastern Conference team because of the whacky divisions. That team shouldn't have made it past Toronto.

And the 2020 play-in loss to Columbus was a gigantic failure and let down.

They weren't supposed to really win a round in 2017 when they first went, they probably weren't supposed to in 2018. They ALMOST beat Boston in 7 in 2019. They should have won at least one of those 2020 or 2021 rounds. They didn't even make the playoffs (technically they did) in 2020 because they lost in the stupid qualifying round to a mediocre Columbus team that probably wouldn't have made it if the season were 82 games and not 70 and there were only 16 playoff teams and not 24.

And then the 2021 was really bad after what happened before.

2022 they lost to the Lightning, who were on their way to their third cup final in a row and were already back to back champions. I could understand definitely questioning the Leafs at that point. I know I was. But the 2020 and 2021 losses were both embarrassing for this core. If they lost just one of those? Okay. But both of those? No, just no.